Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: bomber on January 06, 2014, 12:49:05 PM
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I feel like over two days i took over the forum and I can not express how happy I am with all the comments and suggestions, thank you all very much!
Here we go another issue...
How should i fix this?
First picture is of rectifier and not sure if you can see it but on the red cable there is a hole burned from inside plus a weird white "dust" it doesnt look like DS or wemoto sell this kind of cables/connectors, do I have to buy new regulator/rectifier or can i try to take cables off and clean them.
Second picture is of a positive cable which fix to the battery, think it desperatly needs replacing... I was browsing the forum and still have not idea what kind of cable should i get to replace it. I'm thinking this should do the trick :
Ref: SSP/N
http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/battconns/battleads.php
Pictured is positive cable but the negative looks similar and I think think it is to blame form my bikes poor charging and general miss behaving.
Any suggestions?
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Picture 1
[attachimg=1]
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Struggling with uploads of pictures...
Just realised it was over 300kb
So, picture 2
[attachimg=1]
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Hi Bomber that just likes corrosion you will be ok unplugging the connecters and giving everything a good clean ;), is that the battery earth lead or live lead?
if you have a look on cmsnl for your bike you will be able to get all the part numbers etc and then you could search Dave Silvers site for them :) cheers Mick.
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Picture 1, as Mick said, it just needs a good clean. Picture 2, throw it in he bin if it's the live, cut it back if it's the earth. As long its still long enough to reach the battery.
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DS doesn't have them, think it is easily available to buy from electric shops so they can't be bothered :)
I pasted a link to website which have a cables which look's similar, thought some body might have bought replacement from them.
Is this specification correct? "16mm2 cables with crimped on 8mm rings"
I thought they where 6mm rings, since I'm not going to be in garage today thought I pick one of you guys "brains"
As for cleaning connectors, it is easy enough with a "male parts" as they ehmm stucking out :)
But how to get to the bits inside the white blocks?? think there must be a better way then a sand paper on a ice cream stick... :-[
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Hi Bomber,
Yup, you've got good corrosion by the rectifier... a dismantle & clean (no short cuts that I know of) the only way to go. The burned hole is likely due a connection beginning to fail (you'll likely see the copper wires badly corroded) in which case a 'remanufacture' of that loom piece may honestly save the false economy of a fingers crossed bodge. It'll be more obvious with the boot off.... that red/white is too short to cut-back and you might have to solder in a splice, or replace the red/white all the way back to the loom plug. (or find a second hand one ebay?)
Honestly not a drama replacing a wire, though you do want to have a new spade connector up-front & a decent crimper - unlikely money wasted as will be used many times over. The loom plug pin will withdraw by poking a mini blade screwdriver etc into the plug & releasing the barb which holds that connector pin in place. (you will have to re-use / solder to this pin so go carefully here)
As for the battery +ve lead.... buy a new one and as your starter motor draws approx 120Amps at load ensure it meets this rating minimum - ie choose say 135A or 170A. The lugs will depend upon your battery connection.... mine are 6mm bolts. Bare back enough copper to go all the way into the lug & then flood with solder & this should do the trick.
Try shopping here..
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/category/24
Good luck,
Simon
PS - I might know of a seller who has the rectifier + loom + connector plug for a 400F. You'll have to do the homework but if the same for your bike may save hassle. Won't publish it here but if interested pm me & I'll send you his link.
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Thank you Lobo but will try to fix my loom rather then replace it, it might take me some time but hope I will be able to understand it better this way.
I had a quick look and there are few other issues...
My head lamp is H4 60/55W and since it is draining my battery I'm thinking to replace it with H4 45/45w it will still be 10W more then Honda intended but it should work right, is any one using 45/45?
Also, where should be negative cable from battery be fixed to? frame right, can any one of you nice people send me a picture of where it should be? I suspect on my bike it is not in right place as it should be fixed to the bear metal of the frame, not thru bushing of some sort.
Another thing is I have strange cable I suppose earth going form negative terminal all the way to ignition coil, it looks like a recent upgrade...
Again thank you very much for comments.
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Just sent you a PM that should sort your problem out.
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Earth cable should go to the large rear engine mounting boly outside the removeable bracket BUT there should be NO paint on the bracket whete it touches the engine OR where the cable sits.
There ought to be an earth wire in the loom goinrg to the coil brackets BUT also there should be no paint where the bracket attaches
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Hi again Bomber,
Regarding the (bad looking) main cables to your battery (ie Picture #2) and your comment, "I think this is to blame for the bike's poor charging & general misbehaving".....
If the electric start is cranking the engine then these lousy looking cables are still capable of carrying 120A or so.... Ie way above any max charging current which, for the CB750 is approx 13A.
In other words, despite their condition they are unlikely to be blamed for charging issues. (but still need replacing)
The red / white wire from the rectifier is basically the charge coming from your alternator, and likely terminates at one main lug of the starter solenoid. From here (the same lug) the charging current continues (via the heavy duty red cable) to the positive battery connector.
If you are having charging problems my guess is its in this red / white lead given your photo of burning through the rubber insulator - ie the connector area is corroded to the point it can't efficiently carry the current needed & so begins to overheat....
I agree that if able to fix yourself; well it's always better for obvious reasons, but as suggested don't 'bodge' as whilst some roadside repairs are easy, electrical gremlins are not!
You mention your 60W headlamp was draining the battery.... on a healthy CB550 I'd be surprised given the alternator's capability... and this too indicates a charging problem. (let's say you're running night load might be 60W head, + 5W tail, + 20W brake, + 40W indicators, + 20W alternator field coils etc = 145W, divide by 12V ... to give a current draw of approx 12A..... right up there agreed, but you generally don't ride around with the brake light on / indicators flashing. (ie 'normal night load of (60+5+20) / 12 = 7Amps or so.... easily within the alternator output.
Yesterday I said I knew of no short cut to cleaning connectors etc (still true!) - but a useful tool is a small Dremel with the small various wire wheel attachments they offer.
Anyways, good luck, a basic 400F diagram which may not be accurate, but will be approximate until you can lay your hands on a quality one pertinent to the 500/550F
(the rectifier is bottom right, the Alternator the blue circle left of this)
Simon
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Thanks lobo for explanation, much appreciated.
I had a closer look at the connections and to my surprise they are riveted to rectifier?!
I'm confident that there is just enough red/white cable to fix it but will have to loose black sleeve.
I have ordered cables as you suggested, went for 170 might be over kill but it will definitely let juices flow easier then now :)
I have been looking for a while at the dremel you mentioned, I'm afraid for now elbow grease will have to do ;D
I have another question, what are cable specification which is used in loom? I have seen a post while back which I cant find any longer, can some one point me in right direction?
Many thanks
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Found that post!
The recommendation was 32/0.20mm, 1mm2, 16.5amp.
Thanks to the-chauffeur and LesterPiglet!
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Aha, great!
Ok, just to further help (?); your bike's main fuses are rated @ 15A (?).... and so basically chose a spec of wiring that is greater than this...
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/category/10
If you look here, you'll be given an option of 'Standard' or 'Thin walled' cabling, ... read the intro blurb. I think (somebody confirm?) that the thin walled, whilst lighter & more robust, is 'stiffer' and a bit more of a pain to bend / use... but it's the industry standard & so obviously ok.
For 'end of looms' ... eg a block connector to an indicator bulb, or the switched feed to the horn (etc) you can go for a lower / lighter spec of wire using the formula in my previous posting... ie Watts / Volts. .... eg a single indicator @ 21W / 12V would imply only 2A spec necessary for the stalk wiring. But why make life complicated... my Honda is the same gauge wire throughout its loom BARRING that red / white charge & main feed to the ignition... I seem to recall.
Yup, now remember the 'riveted' connections to the rectifier (I recon'd my 400 loom last year), I guess Honda want to guarantee a good & vibration proof connection. My guess is you have this at the spade... but the actual copper strands into the spade are badly corroded. If this is the case you'll have your work cut out paring it back to good / fresh copper.... and again, good luck!
Simon
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... just something else Bomber... You said above
"Another thing is I have strange cable I suppose earth going from negative terminal all the way to ignition coil, it looks like a recent upgrade..."
.... & gotta say, this sounds a bit odd. Are you sure it actually connects to the coils.... or as Brian says, "there ought to be a cable in the loom going to the coil BRACKETS" (this wire will be likely Green, and earthing the coil units to the frame versus directly connecting to the coils wires.
Point is, the L & R coils, are earthed through (their Yellow & Blue wires) and the contact breakers. If a permanent earth was fed to these wires you'd never achieve a spark, and the engine (obviously) wouldn't run.
The other wires (blacks) are 'live' in, and via a common feed from the ignition switch & through the kill (emergency) switch. (which is why you shouldn't leave the kill switch on with ignition (engine off) as current will run through the coil and complete its circuit to earth if a contact breaker is closed... ie you may burn out that coil)
Bottom line, if your coils input wires are somehow directly earthed from the battery then I'm flummoxed!
In the neat sketch below (alas not mine) the tail & head lamps are obviously missing their earth connections.... I guess the intention being they're mounted to the frame. Starter motor & Points ditto. I reckon the 'Acc' position is 'Accessories'?
Simon
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... sounds a good explanation Oddjob.
Hadn't really picked up on that pic (of the "coil" earth) Bomber, but honestly, those Halfords crimp connectors are the pits .... often as not a wire will just 'drop out'. Whilst you've got your bike in bits it might be a good idea to delete all such troublesome crimps & renew with quality ones or solder connections. (ie solder the wire into the connectors rather than use poor crimp)
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Right, so you reckon buying this
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-13658-5-Way-Crimping-Terminal/dp/B0001K9PBY/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1389173399&sr=8-2&keywords=crimping+tool
was a waist of time and money...
Please shine some light on to this, I understand that poor quality tool will not help but, is this also apply that I need to buy expensive terminals?
Regards
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...aye carrumba, seem to have put my foot in it! Sorry...
But if you're asking, then probably, yes. If they were indeed a great tool they'd be in common use commercially... seen such connections on your car / washing machine etc?
I accept a decent crimping tool, and the quality connectors to go with those are more pricey, but in the long term a probable saving in terms of fewer failures / subsequent servicings.
These connections of yours will be subjected to bumps, vibrations, heat, moisture & so on... a recipe for premature failure. That said, no, you don't have to commit to other expensive options, you could just clean the inside of the connector terminal back to copper & solder the wire (s) in.
Cheers,
Simon
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Lobo,
""Another thing is I have strange cable I suppose earth going from negative terminal all the way to ignition coil, it looks like a recent upgrade..."
.... & gotta say, this sounds a bit odd. Are you sure it actually connects to the coils.... or as Brian says, "there ought to be a cable in the loom going to the coil BRACKETS" (this wire will be likely Green, and earthing the coil units to the frame versus directly connecting to the coils wires."
You are right, this cable is just going to the frame and and as you can see on that picture, brown cable goes to the horn.
So, that earth cable doesn't do any thing more then earths horn, which is rather strange, but the horn is new, and it looks like a bodge of a previous owner.
I'm super excited as it all slowly starting to make sense, I'm feeling more confident then ever before that I can fix my electric issues!
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Oddjob, thanks so much for taking time with your explanation, I understand now what to do.
I'm about to run to garage to check size of the male blade on rectifier as I will need new females to replace riveted connections.
Finally feel that I'm making progress.
Thanks every one who contributed, there is no chance I would be able to fix my bike without this forum!
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Oddjob i have just read the last pages of your advice. And never had i seen such a true word spoke about connectors. The Japanese type bullet connectors are out there, so why O why do people use such things as scothloks and the red/blue isolated bullets & spades? Electrics is my weak spot. Seeing any wires with scothloks makes me more nerves.
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Whilst we are on the subject of tools. Anyone know of a suitable valve spring compressor for the 550?
I had to modify the one I had before by welding and stuff but it got lost in various house moves.
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If you have a pillar drill Lester i will explain tomorrow how to make a simple tool to remove collets.
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A hammer works. ;D
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OddJob... thanks for helping out there... felt I'd perhaps been a little harsh on them cheap crimps.
Our problem Bomber, is that it is all too bloody easy to blow money unnecessarily on a project. We all have differing requirements / funds / skill levels... and it is a minefield working out 'what's best'. I have simply lost count of the cash I've wasted on "crap".... but then again, if I listened to every guru on his pet subject & bought his recommendations, well, I'd be broke. Somewhere in the middle generally lies the answer, and if in an area out of your comfort zone, it's perhaps best you seek multiple views versus any one. And this forum is just bloody great for that... so, keep doing what you're doing... (but beware them 'PlugChangers'!)
Furthermore, when parting with cash, you have to have a firm idea of what you want from your project...concours, excellent, work hack... or 'scrambler' for that field next door.
And is this project a one-off, or the start of many to follow?
Am I fixing one connection, or anticipate major rewiring?
Ie, invest accordingly.
Moving on, specifically to your CB550...
Oddjob suggested quality connectors....and for the sake of commonality on your CB550 can I just go one step further... ie to use 3.5mm 'old style' Honda bullet connectors versus the commonly found '3.9mm Japanese bullet connectors'. This is simply so they mate in easily to the 'bike's existing loom and thus save you the hassle of having to renew both male & female connectors. BUT BEFORE you take my word on this, PLEASE CHECK, .... (my '72 CB750 & '77 CB400F use the 3.5mm).... as I'm not sure of your 550's vintage. (simply put a caliper across widest part of male lug)
In respect of spade connectors... they're pretty standard throughout the industry.
Anyways, have a look here; I've never found these 3.5mm bullets in the UK.
http://www.cycleterminal.com/bullet-connectors.html
So, whilst 'bagging on' about electrics, if you do anticipate significant work can I recommend you treat yourself to a multimeter.... great for confirming good earths, wire continuities, 12V arriving (successfully) at the ends of wires blah blah. And all for £6 or so. (Tandy, Maplins etc)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Digital-LCD-Multimeter-XL-830L-Voltmeter-Ammeter-Ohmmeter-OHM-VOLT-Tester-uk-/301051973196
Your horn earth wire is 'standard' by the way, ie its input is switched live, through the horn... and to earth.
Not quite an indication of 'fantastic crimping'; but rather one of time & patience to get it all right / original. Note the idiot (me) who did this blew the original fuse ... bah. (I now use domestic 13A fuses when verifying circuits, and only put the genuine back once confirmed ok!)
(My CB750K2 "before & after" pics)
Good luck as always,
Simon
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Try looking at the ones in the link below---DON'T HAVE HEART FAILURE AT THE FIRST ONE!!!!!
http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/terminalsnonins/noninscrimps.php
I have a 40 year old Ripaults crimper still in use in good nick except for the cutting jaw
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Try looking at the ones in the link below---DON'T HAVE HEART FAILURE AT THE FIRST ONE!!!!!
http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/terminalsnonins/noninscrimps.php
I have a 40 year old Ripaults crimper still in use in good nick except for the cutting jaw
I got on fine with MP71 from Bryans link + a wire stripper from Aldi when doing a full new loom
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Ewan, I have the same crimpers and found it crimps the smaller part of the terminal fine but when I try the bigger part it ends up all miss-shapen, what was your experience?
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Ewan, I have the same crimpers and found it crimps the smaller part of the terminal fine but when I try the bigger part it ends up all miss-shapen, what was your experience?
found it fine for 3.9 bullets Mick ... although it did take a few to get the hang of positioning the rear end of the bullet in the crimper just right to get a good fold.... bearing in mind I was doing a full loom I got plenty pratice ;) . I'm happy that everything is secure even if some of rear end crimps aren't totally pretty. Just to be sure I put some heathshrink on too before putting the plastic sleeve on. Photo in the above post shows a bullet with heat shrink and sleeve on.
Photo here (though not that good) shows a bullet fresh out the crimper
[attach=2]
and this one shows with heatshrink added, before plastic sleeve put on
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cheers will have to try harder!
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cheers will have to try harder!
.... key is the need to get the wee luggs on the rear of the bullet currectly positioned in the depression bit on the crimping tool before squeezing the handles. (The smaller terminal clamp luggs gets crimped with the jaws of the tool and the larger clamp luggs get crimped between the handles). It took me bloody ages to do all the bullets on that loom.... was my first time though. May well be easier and quicker with a higher spec crimping thingy. And... if it had been a standard loom I'd been needing it would prob have been cheaper buying a new one from DSS