Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: bomber on March 03, 2014, 10:17:42 AM
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I started with broken tappet now it looks like a top end rebuild...
I'm about to remove cylinder block to replace gasket on the bottom of it, I would like to check if I need to replace piston rings and if pistons needs replacing.
How can I check if bottom end is in good nick?
Also, I have changed oil before this operation and did about 100miles, oil looks very dirty, there were clear signs of black deposit when I took rocker cover, and just have a look at the pictures of valves and pistons.
Interestingly when bike was running it didn't smoke, and form the pictures as suggested here before it must have done few miles, I would have thought that rings would be leaking oil and so it would smoke a lot.
Any suggestions much appreciated.
Off to shops to get micrometer!
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I think the only sure way to checke the big ends is to strip them and use plastigage.
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Thanks guys,
I decided that I'm not going to attempt digging any lover than top end, I'm already way past my depths.
Very interesting point about the crescent mark, I had a look at the other picture and it doesn't look like the valve was hitting it, but will need closer look at it.
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Can someone please tell me what are these for? Also it looks like they should be screws, not nuts on top of studs with copper washers.
Any idea?
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Think these bolts hold the rocker shafts in place. I was very surprised on my 500 and 550's that at the worst wear rate on any of my bikes I've only ever had to re ring them, appart from where dammage was really obvious, as in smashed pistons.
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If there were no noise from the bottom end, leave well alone. What i would suggest is take the sump of to clean it out and check the mesh filter is in good order. While you have the top end of you may as well check the piston ring's and as i can see the head is in need of an overhaul. Oddjob must have bloody good eyesight or a better zoom than me to see contact marks on the valves. I would not like to make that judgement without seeing the head up close and personal. Any bent valves would need replacing and can be tested.
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At the moment only one nut has copper washer which is half broken, would you say that I should replace it with steel washers?
Yeah those bolts were only fitted to the modified rocker covers. It was meant to stop the rocker shafts spinning as they were elongating the hole they sat in.
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Thanks for suggestions and comments so far.
Here comes another question.
I cant find any local soda blasting place, so far I found a company which uses plastic mixed with glass, can anyone reccomend using it?
They reckon it works same as soda and they will mask off whatever needs to be masked.
I would like to have cylinder block and head cleaned off, should I ask for the carbon deposit form inside the head to be cleaned too, or just the outside.
Thanks
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Yep, see what you mean now oddjob. I was still half a sleep when i had a look. Too clean for a carbon area.
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I took exhaust valves today and they look straight, struggling with taking valve stem oil seals, how would you take them off?
I've cleaned outside of cylinder block, but there was still a lot of sand and some of it got inside, I think I will not worry about this now and just change oil twice shortly after rebuild, what do you think? is this going to screw bottom end?
There is a bit of rust on the studs, do you think they need replacing?
I still don't have micrometer and used vernier to measure quickly pistons only one of them seems way out it seems to be 58.5mm while max serviceable limit is 58.35 but not sure how precise this measurement is, I also tried to measure ring end gap and it was waaaay over what manual indicate.
I'm wondering how to measure precisely inside of cylinders, I'm guessing that vernier is not precise enough.
Admittedly I'm way out of my depths...
And lastly on all images and in both manuals I got there is a single mark for the "timing mark" I have two super close to each other, would you say that the way I took picture, is correct position to set timing and valves of course it need to be 1and4(for valves setting) not 2and3 as in my picture.
:-[
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You can take the valve stem seals out with long nose pliers . Sand in the head? you should of got it soda blasted. Now you must get every grain out. A couple of grains stuck in a oil way will destroy a bottom end.
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There was a sand in the cylinder block, stuck to the studs, when I was lifting it it got loose and went in...
The whole block was painted silver at some point, whoever did it couldn't be bother to clean sand and other carp beforehand.
You can take the valve stem seals out with long nose pliers . Sand in the head? you should of got it soda blasted. Now you must get every grain out. A couple of grains stuck in a oil way will destroy a bottom end.
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You should always clean a engine before working on it. Unless you intend to do a full strip and rebuild.
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Sadly, I have no space to take engine of the bike, I guess I'm learning the hard way...
You should always clean a engine before working on it. Unless you intend to do a full strip and rebuild.
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Yes Bomber, but at least your learning.
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Move your timing mark. It needs to line up with the left "T" mark.
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Thanks Lester!
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I'd remove those bolts from the rocker cover. They should all have washers underneath to protect the alloy as they are tightened. Plus the nuts don't seem to be tight as one nut seems to be coming off. The clamps the nuts are attached to resemble the things you used to get on push bikes to secure the pedal arms to the cotter shaft that ran through the frame. They were called cotter pins and were basically just slanted pins with a threaded end. If you do remove them and remove the shafts they are securing make sure you note which rocker arm goes where, maybe a tag saying inlet number cyl.1 etc.
Thanks for explanation, nuts were loose as I started to disassemble it and then took a picture.
You were spot on on the valve hitting piston! I was checking them today and all are straight except one and bingo thats same on which marked piston, I used metal ruler to check them and there is no way I could see it by eye.
So one valve to replace, does it mean valve guide needs replacing?
I measured pistons and cylinders with Vernier caliper, they all read 58.38mm only number 4 same one which has valve issue, read in direction front/back 58.44mm but left to right 58.38
It doesn't seems right as standard is 54.47-58.49, serviceable limit 58.35 does it mean that I should rebore for the 0.25 and use new pistons with new rings?
Also, all rings end gap are fine a part of the no4 which is 0.61mm and it should be replaced as limit is 0.7
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Put the valves in a drill and spin them up, if they aren't straight they will show a slight wobble, easy way to check them.
Check the end of the valve guide inside the inlet, see if you can spot any part of it missing, sometimes the valve bending breaks a small piece off. Other than that, get a new valve and see if it's a nice fit inside the old guide before thinking of replacing the guide, that will probably be beyond your talents at the moment.
TBH I never measured a piston unless I was looking to see if it had been bored and oversized. The best way to check for liner wear is the piston ring end gap, aside from a visual inspection of course, if it's all scored it's safe to assume it's gonna need a rebore. However to measure the liner wear you need a new set of rings, by one set of standard rings, use those to check each cylinder. If they all come back inside the limits then you can just re-ring the pistons. Position the new ring at 3 points in the liner, low edge, middle and top but not the very top as that doesn't get wear, about 10mm down from the top is fine. If the liners are very worn you can usually test them by using a finger nail and seeing if there is a lip right on the upper edge of the liner, as the piston rings don't go up the liner that far there will be a ridge on the liner right where the liner gets worn and where it doesn't, run your finger nail up the liner and you'll feel the ridge, if it's a big ridge then the liner is worn and a rebore is needed, a thin ridge you can barely feel with the nail usually means minimal wear and no rebore needed.
All that writing for something I could show you much better in a few seconds ::)
I strongly suspect the engine wasn't running when you bought it? I'm thinking that valve was stuck and as you turned the engine over it hit the piston, they usually bend much more than that if the engines running or you turning it over on the starter. I also strongly suspect you'll end up with a full engine out, you really need to clean that sand out of the bottom end and I suspect there will be additional stuff to replace on the bottom end, primary chain and dampers probably and camchain as well most likely.
Thanks a lot for explanation.
You are right, bike was standing for over two years when I got it.
I will check that edge in liner tomorrow, to my untrained eye, liners look fine, there are dark patches but nothing I can feel on the finger.
Idea of taking engine of the frame worries me a lot, there is a strong chance that giving the work and family commitments I will not be able to have it back on the road before Christmas :'(
Thanks
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Engine out is easy. Your half the way already. It does look as if it needs a good investigation. Once the sump is off you can check the primary chain. All these parts are not cheap. I have just finished a CB550 full rebuild.
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Admittedly I'm way out of my depths...
bomber - back in the day I discovered my 400F had its cam chain tensioner bolt broken off. I tried using a thread extractor (aka easy-out). Bad idea as I broke it off in the hole I had drilled.
I considered selling the bike and replacing it with a Suzuki GT380. Couldn't sell so I thought sod it - it's coming to pieces and I'll fix it properly.
I wasn't quite 19 and I had little more than a socket set, a Haynes and an old kitchen table in the garage. It was winter.
I didn't pull the rotor, I remember that, so the crank went back in with at least that seal not replaced. I *seem* to remember the Haynes manual saying the primary chain was never likely to need replacing (!) could be wrong about that one but I did replace the cam chain and tensioner mechanism. New rings too. Erm, coat-hanger method for the clutch basket.
Oh the bolt - got an engineering company to drill it out, machining a plug arrangement of some sort and tapping a new hole. It leaked a bit from there but hey-ho. Cost me 40 quid in 1979 to get that done. Bloody king's ransom but I learnt a lot...
Engine went back together and I felt it was so much better - clutch didn't snag anymore, kick start always engaged whereas before sometimes it would slip - don't really know why these things were better as no parts were replaced - no spare cash. Went like stink (as far as 400Fs ever do) and I rode it for miles and miles.
SOHCs are simple and easy to work on. Message: don't shy away from doing more than you think you are capable of. Take things easy, build confidence by careful progression. You will get a much better result that way. Good luck with it.
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When I got my 550 I'd only ever owned 2 strokes.
The first thing I did was fix the cam chain tensioner and regrind the valves. It's all simple enough with a Haynes manual.
Engine out/in is easy too. Lay the bike on it's side and lift the frame off it, reverse for installation.
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I also recall the haynes manual said you are unlikely to ever have to replace the hy vo chain - to be fair I've a few used ones about and someplace I had a new one and I couldn't tell the difference in wear between the new and a few of the used - there were one or 2 more worn examples in my collection.
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Don't believe everything you read in a Haynes manual, I have come accross some real bad howlers!!! as to the Hy-Vo primary chain on the 400 its not too bad , on the 500 it wears badly and damages the main oil galleries and on the 550 the crankcases were different so the wear is not quite as bad so still there.
Same part for all 3 by the way (and a Kawasaki model I can't remember!!)
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Thank you for encouragement.
I got my gasket set and ready now to tackle it.
Monday is the day (weather permitting), will drain oil and remove engine as suggested by Lester.
Will see what other surprises are there for me.
I just remembered that first gear occasionally was popping out to neutral...
Many thanks!
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I had a few engines where it poped out of 1st under load , both 500's - I'd sort it whilst you are in there f possible - on mine it took a year of commuting to get to the point where it was a royal pain, then it started doing it in 2nd too and I pulled the engine as I'm on a bit of a steep hill and it was getting 'not funny' going up the hill slipping the clutch in 3rd or poping out of gear and reving it's nutts off in 2nd every day.
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I had a few engines where it poped out of 1st under load , both 500's - I'd sort it whilst you are in there f possible - on mine it took a year of commuting to get to the point where it was a royal pain, then it started doing it in 2nd too and I pulled the engine as I'm on a bit of a steep hill and it was getting 'not funny' going up the hill slipping the clutch in 3rd or poping out of gear and reving it's nutts off in 2nd every day.
Any suggestions what to look out for?
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I've not got around to look at mine yet, but selector fork wear or dogs and the selector drum are all suspect - think the drum is reputed to wear on the 500 but think that was revised on the 550.
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I can second everything that Oddjob said and i worked on them for a living in the 70's
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So, after few months I finally had a bit of time to get back to my bike.
I finally split the engine and i'm trying to assess what needs to be done, a part of washing sand away.
For the start it looks like there is no seal in between crankcases, should there be one??
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Jointing compound... no gasket if that's what you meant.
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Tom there is nothing, I didn't expected gasket but there is no sign of a jointing compound, just a trace of light brown in one or two holes.
Oddjob, I haven't split gears yet but it all looks rather clean and there is no damage or wear a part of where bearing seat on case, I will try to post few more pictures tomorrow.
There seems to be a lot of play in primary chain, and with clocks reading 30k i'm going to replace it, but first have to free it, read somewhere about screwing one of the large engine mount bolts and slamming socket to pull it out, will try it tommorow.
I'm struggling to upload pictures, it seems that they are to big here is a link to them, i have to find a quick way to re sizing my snaps.
https://plus.google.com/photos/100803604774033940642/albums/6028232728034539713
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Bomber I have managed to source some new gear selectors for the 500K, the middle one is very difficult to source these days and I've managed to find a few, I also have a new left hand fork along with some really good second hand ones which TBH look as good as the new one.
I have most of the gears NOS as well if it turns out you need to replace 1 or 2. Hope it's not one of the ones I'm missing as I spotted one on german E-Bay the other day and it was around £125 for just one gear.
When you split it and can check if there's any damage and if any of those parts are useful left me know as I don't expect the middle selector fork to not sell for long.
I had another closer look and i can't see any wear or damage a part of forks, but that is no way near as bad as I seen on forum.
I noticed that the fork wear is not even, and I wonder if I should be measuring the thinnest part of it rather than thicker.
I think that I'm either very lucky or blind...
Thanks a lot for the info, I couldn't get this far without this forum.
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Looking for a hondabond ht, it seems I can only get it of ebay in USA
Anyone knows where to get it in UK?
Thanks
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370990844719
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http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370990844719
Thanks!
this is the last bit of a puzzle! Almost ready to assembly the engine.
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Finally started reassembly, today got both halves together.
I have never done it before, kind of worrying if I used to much of hondabond but can't see it coming out of sides so I reckon I did it all right ;D
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Hondabond i got is super tacky and no chance to do it with brush, think next time I will use plain sharp plastic edge, I used cardboard this time.
Just realised that I haven't scored or glued crews on starting clutch, so will split casings again... not to keen but better now since all I have to do is take clutch and gear shift mechanism off.
Getting there slowly...
I always used a modellers paint brush to apply the crankcase sealant. In my day it was always Hylomar but the new Honda stuff is great as well.