Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB350/400 => Topic started by: Drew400 on March 12, 2015, 07:20:57 PM
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Hello all,
As my previous thread (http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,7852.0.html) was leading this way, I thought I'd start a new one to make future searching for anyone a bit easier.
It seems that my starter motor is dead.
Step 1 - My meter is showing 12v from the solenoid when I press the starter button so I have removed the starter and now require your expertise (having never before stripped a starter motor).
Step 2 - I put a car battery between the body of the starter (-ve) and the power lead only to see a flash and no movement from the cog end before I rapidly pulled it away again.
Next step, removed the bolts to reveal the innards, as per the pictures below. A couple of things struck me: 1) should there be sheathing on both of the wires leading to the brushes? 2) I picked up a loose piece of metal that you can see resting on top of the body near the unsheathed brush. Can't see where it might have come from.
Any advice (such as buy a replacement starter motor!) very much appreciated.
Cheers, D.
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I imagine the unsheathed brush is the -ve one and therefore that's OK.
You can check for continuity between the +ve terminal and the sheathed brush, or more importantly no continuity between the +ve terminal and the motor body.
Don't know what the mystery piece of metal is.
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It looks like a bent commutator segment bur I assume the segments are all OK otherwise you would have spotted it. Brushes look ok though. I'd give it all a good clean up and it might make sense
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Hi Drew,
Starter motors generally robust bits of kit that rarely give trouble.... bad luck!
That bit of 'swarf'... if its not obvious then perhaps a chip off one of the body magnets... they are brittle & can chip. Do have a good look around - there may be more awaiting their freedom.
Agree with Tom on the sheathing issue.
(1) Your meter showing 12v off the solenoid does not imply that the solenoid can supply the 80 or so Amps necessary to spin the stater. The weeny horn switch too will show 12v coming out of it ... but no way would it supply the starter. Point is... it may indeed be the solenoid is 'worn'. To check this I previously suggested you held a big screwdriver across the solenoid 'big' terminals ... (ie bypassing the solenoid workings)... if you did this, and no spinning, then indeed it points to a fault in the starter motor, its earthing (& battery too), or main +ve lead supply.
(Presumably you're 100% happy with all the wirings, crimped connections & ALL earthings.)
(2) Yup... always biggum sparks.... even with a healthy motor. I presume before you did this, that it turned freely? Point I'm making is did you give it a 'manly' connection before bottling out due that big spark. (no offence Julie!)
As Mike the Bike suggests, I'd just clean it all up & put it back. Try putting the spindle in an electric drill, and on a lowish speed, and with some fine emery paper / 1200 grit whatever, gently polish up the commutator. Then with a soft pick (eg wooden toothpick) scratch out all the embedded (soft) carbon from all the 'slots'. Clean all aspects of the brushes / mounts, then grease all spinning bits all up lightly & reassemble.
I've not checked (Honda) ... but recently bought 2 pattern starter motors for my Seadoo jet boat. Came in at $49 USD each.... wow, what a bloody bargain. (they were beyond repair due seawater)
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Not sure on extra metal but if it was inside it has to have broken off something which is worrying, Commutator (copper segmented bit that brushes run on) looks overheated to me and is one of the worst Ive seen also brushes seem worn odd.
Conclusion, good used part is probably cheapest and easiest fix
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That com looks OK to me, just needs a clean up as Logo suggests. When I worked for Hotpoint, there were brushes that looked a bid ragged and sparked a lot so..
Clean everything up
Clean in commutator
Fit new brushes
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Thank you all very much indeed!
I guess my manliness was inded tested to the limit with the car battery, but I got nothing when I shorted across the solenoid (using a spare earth lead rather than a screw driver). I am (was) indeed happy with the earthings, etc. because it was spinning on previous (post-rebuild occassions) and it was spinning at the moment it went wrong.
I will now do a damned good cleaning job on it and brush out (air compressor?) all the innards. I'll then reassemble it and report back. Job for Sunday.
Have a good weekend all, whatever you're doing.
Cheers, D.
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Have to say Drew the bushes I replaced are in far better nick than yours.Probably the same you can have em if you want
Cheers
Bitsa
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Hey Drew,
If you need spares for your starter motor, give us a shout as I have a couple in various states of repair.
Frisky
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Thank you both. I'll pm you if I need anything.
Cheers,
D.
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Hi,
Broken bit ressembles the captive end of one of the brush springs-previous repair left-over?----Ken
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Well spotted
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Thank you too, D.
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Hi all, fault found.
The inner wiring loom, at the point it is connected to the copper +ve terminal post that protrudes through the starter motor body, is completely shot. The odd piece of metal comes from that connection.
I've tried all sorts of ingenious ways to repair it with no success. Indeed, there is evidence of previous repair work in the same area.
Probably need a replacement motor unless the innards are available anywhere. Investigation under way.
Another piece of the colourful learning tapestry that is my 400/4!
Cheers,
D.
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Hi,
At least you have a definative answer to your trouble-well done, maybe Steve at 400/4 bits can sort you something out---Ken
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Thanks Ken.
Cheers, D.
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It looks repairable from the photo. Pity you don't live this side of the Severn bridge 🌉
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Ha ha, repairable maybe, but not with my limited skills/equipment! It'll do for parts for someone when I get my replacement installed satisfactorily.
Cheers, D.
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Drew,
I have a starter motor that came with a load of spares I bought. I can have a look tomorrow and see if it seems any good if that would help.
Chris
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Thanks Chris.
I have PM'd you.
Cheers, D.
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So here's the next chapter of my starter story...
Thanks to Frisky, I have a shiny, almost new starter motor that works fine (off the bike). Here's the story:
1. Fitted the new starter, pressed the starter button and hey presto, same noise as before and no turning over of the engine (poo)!
2. Worried that I've knackered another starter motor, I remove it and test it on a car battery, it spins up just fine. No manliness worries this time (for those who've followed this thread)!
3. Me thinks, hmm perhaps my bike battery is struggling. So I re-fit the starter, connect up a fully charged car battery and still it fails to turn over the engine (and still those rattling noises from the solenoid area when I press the starter button).
4. My ingenious next test, illustrated below (well I think it's ingenious) is to fit the starter motor facing outwards to observe the cog end. The picture doesn't make it clear that the two lead are connected in mid-air! Sure enough, I press the starter button and same old noises from the solenoid area and the starter motor cog barely moves.
OK experts, do I now buy a new solenoid or is there something else to check first (remembering that I'm not very good with a multi meter).
Thank you again,
D.
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Hi Drew,
It does sound like the solenoid. Don't worry about busting another motor, it shouldn't affect the motor if the solenoid is malfunctioning.
A simple check for the solenoid would be to get a large pair of insulated pliers and open up the jaws to the same size as the terminals on the solenoid. Briefly touch the pliers across the terminals and the starter should turn the engine over - watch for sparks though and make sure it is in neutral ! If it does, then the solenoid is faulty, if it doesn't then you probably have an earth fault with the engine earth cable or starter switch
Good luck
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Nice one, thanks Frisky.
I'll update again when I've had a chance to try that.
Cheers,
D.
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Hi all,
Success.... of sorts!
After all of your various tips and help messages, I was getting nowhere fast. Nothing seemed to work to produce anything other than weird noises and no cranking.
So I reverted to attaching a car battery direct to the bike's -ve and +ve battery leads and hey presto, wonderful high speed spinning of the whole engine from Chris's wonderful replacement starter motor. I ran it for a good while like this and saw the oil pressure light go out... a very good sign, eh?
My discoveries include: 1) my bike's battery (despite being relatively new) is not holding enough charge, even though it runs horn, lights and winkers simultaneously with no problem and 2) my jump leads weren't making a good connection either (can you believe that?).
However, my joy was severely tempered by a large pool of oil appearing under the bike. It seems my oil pressure pushed out an engine plug (see my latest thread seeking more of your specialist help, albeit this time, not electrical).
Fun fun fun,
D.
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I do not believe that should happen with the alt cover in place OFF YES
Cheers
Bitsa
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Hi Bitsa,
Sorry, I'm not sure I fully understand your post. Are you referring to the oil leak?
Cheers,
D.
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Yes Mate sorry not on all cylinders today and sure read 2 posts similar sorry
Cheers
Bitsa
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Good heavens, no apology necessary.
I have updated my other post (as you have probably by now read).
Cheers,
D.