Honda-SOHC

SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: cantarauk on October 07, 2016, 09:19:42 AM

Title: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on October 07, 2016, 09:19:42 AM
Hi,

I recently purchased a '72 CB500 which was a bit rough around the edges to say the least with the intention of rebuilding this as a Cafe style racer. I have been taking my time with the stripping down of the bike and am now at the point where I am taking the engine apart which is a new skill in itself.

I have read that camshaft bearing surfaces should be inspected and should be smooth and shiny and if there is excessive wear it or it is scratched it should be replaced. My question here is what warrants excessive wear/scratches as I have seen as bad surfaces on posts where used have said this should be fine. 

I have attached some images and would appreciate the professional opinion of the community.

There will be more questions the deeper down the rabbit hole I get.

(https://i.ibb.co/b2hVzWm/IMG-6140.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LJwynkR)

(https://i.ibb.co/SNxP7G0/IMG-6141.jpg) (https://ibb.co/1ZnLJjK)

(https://i.ibb.co/N2Yd0cM/IMG-6137.jpg) (https://ibb.co/s93dT8Z)

Glenn
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Chris400F on October 07, 2016, 09:31:19 AM
I don't think I would be able to comment usefully anyway but can't see the images so suspect others won't be able to either.
Can you check they are visible? Are they perhaps hosted somewhere not publicly accessible?
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on October 07, 2016, 10:15:05 AM
I can see them and they ain't pretty. Unfortunately there all apear to be of the 2 bearing surfaces next to the camchain tunnel, none of the 2 end journals. Red hermetite everywhere (oh dear) camchain tunnel is badly marked with what appears to be where the chain has broken at some time. Journals are very poor, not good at all, looks like something has gone round at some point as the oil spreader opening is peened over on the edge.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: AshimotoK0 on October 07, 2016, 11:06:15 AM
Agree with Oddjob. What does the mating cam cover & camshaft look like ? I think there is a CB magazine article on the 400/4 project bike  setup which had been fitted with NOS Villiers engine shells, I think previously carried out  by Dixon Racing ( they had fitted a new cam cover and half bearing shell arrangement  in the head). This requires precision engineering though.

Your best bet is either a replacement from DK or Jap2wheelz (Frank)  in Germany though.  Both have a decent reputation and good returns policy. Or perhaps someone on here has a decent spare to sell you.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: AshimotoK0 on October 07, 2016, 12:22:20 PM
Further to last post of mine here is the Dixon Racing conversion on the CB bike
Go this below back from Rick Parkington of Classic Bike Magazine regarding the cam bearing shells fitted to the CB400F project bike they are building. Interesting stuff !!

Cheers ... AshD

-------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Ash,  Received your message to David Silver via a rather circuitous route! Afraid I can't offer much more information at present  largely because the engine is sitting inverted on its head while I  assemble the bottom end! I will by all means take a closer look when it's right way up again. Since the cam cover has no shells fitted, the cam diameter must still be standard and that means that if these are Kawasaki shells, it must be a model whose cam is the same diameter as a 400/4. My issue was that as a machining job it isn't one I'd like to undertake because the head design prevents starting from one end and boring straight through; it would be tricky to get right starting with an already worn head and it wouldn't have to be far out to seize. I'm guessing there's more slack on the fit than there was on the DOHC motors where the cam caps were not avaailable separately and disaster followed mixing them up... The cam cover is away for chrome stripping and polishing just now but I'm looking forward to plastigauging the fit of the cam when it returns. I can see it would be a big help to SOHC owners to find out how this was done (in my bike shop days I used to have a black museum of gruesome SOHC Honda cams!) but I have a feeling finding the shells may only be half the answer, it's a pity it looks like it was done before my mate bought the bike Cheers Rick

Hi Ash,
OK got bit more info now. The bearing shells in the head are not Z1. I popped one out and the number on the back is G (in a square) S8919M. The stamping looked similar to that on Triumph shells, so assuming it was a Glacier bearing I tried Googling the number but no result.Giving up on the Internet I did what I should have done first and checked my 1968 Glacier catalogue. Turns out they are from a Villiers industrial engine. The set number was B 1042 S and the engine is a Villiers Mk12 1.5hp, 120cc. The shells in the head are minus tens; turns out the Villiers standard shaft diameter is 0.874", I measured the cam at 0.864", so using -0.010" shells will make the fit right for the Honda cam. I suspect these bearings will be hard to obtain now but you never know.Speaking to someone yesterday who reckoned that back in the day Dixon Racing used to do cylinder head bushing operations, thy supplied the Yoshi parts so that would make sense.Thanks for the invite to the forum; not sure I'd have much to contribute, I'm afraid this is the first four I've laid a spanner on. Work aside I avoid the computer - too much to do in the shed. I actually started a blog this year (www.rickparkington.co.uk) and am having trouble finding the time even to do that! But feel free to use this info and pics. Hope it proves helpful.
All the best Rick P



http://vintagemotorcyclepistons.co.uk/page/5




[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][attachimg=3]
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Trigger on October 07, 2016, 12:54:02 PM
I also can't see any pictures.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: AshimotoK0 on October 07, 2016, 01:40:47 PM
I also can't see any pictures.

They are coming up OK for me Graham but here if you can't see 'em

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/axf4lyhra89zsi0/AAC2kGVjjiKQbDq8nRTavorFa?dl=0
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: clive on October 07, 2016, 01:45:13 PM
i can,
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Nurse Julie on October 07, 2016, 02:11:28 PM
I cant see the original pics either
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: AshimotoK0 on October 07, 2016, 02:36:52 PM
I cant see the original pics either

Feeling guilty about using up all of Steve's storage ... so off to make a site donation...HINT  ;)  Blaming Trigger & Julie  :D

[attachimg=1][attachimg=2][[attachimg=2][attachimg=3]attachimg=3]
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on October 07, 2016, 10:43:01 PM
500 heads and cam covers are pretty common, as are camshafts. Far cheaper to just buy good second hand ones. I'll have a look and see if I can help, I have loads of spare parts for 500 engines.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: matthewmosse on October 08, 2016, 08:41:44 AM
I have a head + top end off a cb500 that has been modified to run needle roller bearings, bought years ago off ebay, the seller didn't know who had done the conversion. I reacon the cb500 head and cover could be converted to allow for the cam bearing to be line bored down its length and sealing caps inserted at the assembly stage ( might be a bit involved given the need to seal up the cover with bolts holding it down being in the same place etc). On my kl250 I found a local shop willing to machine out the knackered head bearing surface and insert a phosphur bronze insert for the cam to run in, a much simpler prospect but surprisingly cost effective costing only £65 which was cheaper then any good cylinder heads off ebay in the 6 months I was looking.
I have a few worn heads if anyone wants to have a go at a modification, the guy who did my kl head was only willing to give it a try when he had 3 spares available so no loss if it didn't work, and then he modified the worst one.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: AshimotoK0 on October 08, 2016, 10:28:40 AM
500 heads and cam covers are pretty common, as are camshafts. Far cheaper to just buy good second hand ones. I'll have a look and see if I can help, I have loads of spare parts for 500 engines.

I fully agree Ken  but sooner or later we are going to run out plus what happens if the valves/ guides/fins/mating surfaces/threads are all fine or refurbed and you would like to keep the original head. By posting the alternative options on here then in years to come it may benefit someone, which to me is what these forums are all about IMHO. Taking bikes like the CB250/350K try finding a decent pair of used cam bearings ! Interesting that Dixon Racing would take all of that trouble in what I guess was 1980's , early 90's.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on October 08, 2016, 12:11:40 PM
Hi all,

Thank you for the replies and advice so far. As mentioned I am all new to this but it all makes sense to me and I guess what I have currently needs either replacing or machining to make good. I am away for the weekend but when I get home I will fix the images so that all can see them and the also add additional images as requested. Thanks agin.matthewmosse where is your contact that machined you kl based? Or does anyone know a machinist up north (Yorkshire) who would undertake this ? £65 seems like a bargain to me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: matthewmosse on October 08, 2016, 03:00:58 PM
Mid Wales motox handled my kl engine rebuild and Matt who runs it outsourced the machining  - I think to a retired enginerr who does a bit to keep himself entertained. Normally I would think replacement would be cheapest for a worn / dammaged head, but since I last had to buy bits for a cb500, parts have kept creeping up so that is open to constant re evaluation, gone are the days of £50 complete engines that could simply be dropped in and run for the cb500 or 550. 
For myself I stockpile bits like worn cylinder heads for these bikes, at some point it may be viable to either get a batch machined or invest in the kit to re work them when good spares dry up. The rear brake hubs proved not too hard to repair, but after I figured that out and did a few for myself I found an engineer in Huddersfield doing them at such a bargin price I wouldn't be in a hurry to do another.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on October 08, 2016, 06:36:15 PM
Your brake guy would not go a miss if you don't mind sharing as I am sure that they will need some attention when I get to that part of the project


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Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: matthewmosse on October 08, 2016, 08:36:39 PM
His details have been posted up on the forum a few times, I did have it bookmarked on my old laptop but that is tempremental as anything and not playing ball. I think it was Colin Jackson, Huddersfield. Only needed if the brake drum lining is cracked. Front brakes are easier nowadays, calipers available new, disks never fail.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on October 11, 2016, 06:15:35 PM
Hi,

I have changed the images to a different location so hopefully everyone can now see these.

Glenn
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on October 11, 2016, 06:33:48 PM
Hi,

Here are more images which show the end journals which while not as bad as the cam chain tunnel there is still wear.

(https://s11.postimg.org/fnj4wt39r/IMG_6138.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/fnj4wt39r/)

(https://s11.postimg.org/ecdtbwtkv/IMG_6135.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ecdtbwtkv/)

Oddjob - I take it the hermetite is not good ! I will also try and get more images of the cam chain tunnel as you mentioned this has damage from broken chain. I am replacing all chains as a matter of caution as I have discovered a chain link in the oil pan and do not trust what is already there.

(https://s17.postimg.org/gfurjmptn/IMG_6254.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/gfurjmptn/)

The camshaft does not look damaged to me but I will again get some more images for the community to best advise.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: hairygit on October 11, 2016, 06:36:08 PM
That link you found is from the primary chain, dread to think what could happen if one let go while being ridden! :o
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on October 11, 2016, 06:47:29 PM
Yup, Will be going through the bottom end this week which is the last bit to tear down. On initial inspection there did not seem to be much wrong there or even a missing link.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on October 11, 2016, 08:26:31 PM
Hermetite is a clear sign of an amateur having a go at fixing an engine. It's not a good sign as most of them (but not all) make a real mess of it. Professionals never use it.

Agree, the link looks to be off a primary chain, best to change that along with the damper rubbers. Check the rubbers in the camchain tensioner as well, they can deteriorate over time, they are at the top and bottom of the blade. I have a lot NOS if you need some. Also check the tensioner moves freely and the blade is in good nick. The damage in the camchain tunnel may even have been caused by that link flying around inside the engine. Check the sprocket on the crankshaft for damage if that's so.

Been digging in the shed today and found 2 500 heads, both have been sat for over 40 years and boy do they look it, 40 years of dust and grime all over them. They do however both appear to be fine, all the camshaft bearing surfaces look ok. Also have a camshaft cover which also looks in good nick. One of the heads looks to have been bead blasted (most likely be me when I was working at Queenies) and may even have new valve guides in, do remember fitting them and never using that head. They look a bit rusty now though  :) I have a genuine Honda reamer for those guides so may run that down them at some time to see if they are recoverable.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on October 11, 2016, 08:47:32 PM
Thanks for the reply Oddjob I will have a closer look at the camshaft sprocket when I get the chance but don't remember seeing any damage while I was removing and quickly inspecting.

Depending on how I get on with a contact I have been put in touch with who could possibly do some machining magic to machine the bearing out  and replace with inserts as mentioned by matthewmosse I may have to ask if you are prepared to part with one of those heads ?

I am hoping to hear back this week and have explained in detail what it is I am after. It will possibly be the cost that puts me off since I have a list of expenses that are coming up.

Glenn

Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on October 19, 2016, 10:19:00 PM

I have been taking my time and have now completely stripped down the engine ready for a very good clean and then individual part inspection.

I was asked earlier to get some pictures of the cam cover and camshaft so that you can see what they look like compared to what the bearing surfaces looked like. Images below of both which to my unprofessional eye do not seem marked/damaged or at least as marked/damaged as the surfaces on the head. The camshaft seems to be in good order but could someone guide me as to how I go about testing both the bearings and the cam shaft. Would it be possible to use plastiguage here to detect and issues ?

(https://s22.postimg.org/q6qugntyl/IMG_6378.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/q6qugntyl/)

(https://s10.postimg.org/4o2oa3x51/IMG_6381.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/4o2oa3x51/)

(https://s16.postimg.org/nuro1z975/IMG_6388.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/nuro1z975/)

(https://s4.postimg.org/54aqrb7eh/IMG_6393.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/54aqrb7eh/)

(https://s12.postimg.org/7fb51aq15/IMG_6396.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/7fb51aq15/)

Lastly, below are more images of the engine as I completed the strip down if you can see anything that stands out please please do not hesitate comment.

(https://s16.postimg.org/inqze6fnl/IMG_6145.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/inqze6fnl/)

(https://s11.postimg.org/lg2bsex5b/IMG_6190.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/lg2bsex5b/)

(https://s10.postimg.org/j76bmiket/IMG_6187.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/j76bmiket/)

(https://s22.postimg.org/6v5h5w0l9/IMG_6237.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6v5h5w0l9/)

(https://s10.postimg.org/6t2sdylcl/IMG_6289.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/6t2sdylcl/)

(https://s16.postimg.org/5tdl1evtd/IMG_6291.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/5tdl1evtd/)

(https://s9.postimg.org/ii84dfxvv/IMG_6295.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ii84dfxvv/)

Glenn
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on October 20, 2016, 12:13:57 AM
Need more pics of the camcover bearing surfaces, you've only shown one of the possible 4 and that's a bad angle to judge even that one off. That's one dirty engine there, the oil seems pretty black/grey. Try cleaning the oil off the surfaces as it can mask the condition, especially off the main crank bearings. Don't remove the crank bearings without clearly marking them, top and bottom, if usable they need to go back into the exact same position, you cannot mix them up.

Engines clearly been apart and decoked not long before, which makes me wonder how the oil got that dirty. Try and take pics of the camshaft edge on not top down, difficult to see if there's any wear there.

I would be willing to sell a cylinder head IF it turns out you need one, clean everything off really well and take more pics.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on October 23, 2016, 09:33:33 PM
Hi Oddjob,

I have taken more pictures please see below:

(https://s12.postimg.org/ir0v316g9/IMG_6466.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ir0v316g9/)

(https://s15.postimg.org/3nek0ll9z/IMG_6467.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/3nek0ll9z/)

(https://s10.postimg.org/enchmcd5x/IMG_6468.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/enchmcd5x/)

(https://s18.postimg.org/53fvdimlx/IMG_6469.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/53fvdimlx/)

and then of the camshaft( let me know if this is the angle you meant)

(https://s16.postimg.org/dd76aesq9/IMG_6476.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/dd76aesq9/)

(https://s15.postimg.org/yr7em090n/IMG_6480.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/yr7em090n/)

(https://s21.postimg.org/qzo41prxv/IMG_6482.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/qzo41prxv/)
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on October 23, 2016, 09:59:57 PM
Not the angle I meant, you need to show if the cam bearings have any score marks on them, can you run your fingernail across them and not feel it get snagged for example. Camcover isn't the best but it's serviceable I'd say.

Do the rocker surfaces look ok, any step markings for example.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on October 25, 2016, 09:49:39 PM
Oddjob - Excuse my naivety and this is just purely for my own interest but how would one go about servicing the cam cover ?

The rockers look to be in good condition but I have nit yet taken these apart and will have closer inspection once I go to that section. But see images I have below

(https://s11.postimg.org/kldxulhe7/IMG_6398.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/kldxulhe7/)

I will be sure to post more images this weekend once I have cleaned the rockers up better. I have plastiguage at my disposal and am wondering if that would help with determining the condition of the cam bearings ?

(https://s4.postimg.org/q4dw2tmsp/IMG_6473.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/q4dw2tmsp/)

Then I also have images of crankshaft journals which again look somewhat worn but would appreciate any input.

(https://s10.postimg.org/808z7g1dx/IMG_6444.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/808z7g1dx/)

(https://s21.postimg.org/mm0bxxgbn/IMG_6451.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/mm0bxxgbn/)




Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on October 26, 2016, 05:19:07 AM
Well those are better.

The rocker I can see looks ok, the other is too dark to make out properly.

The cam is scored, it may be that whatever marked the cylinder head lodged there and just scored the cam as it went past. The camcover doesn't really show the same markings so it looks like whatever caused the scoring didn't fly around the journal, may have been a piece of dirt left in the journal when the cam was dropped into place.

Pic 3 is of the gearbox bearing surfaces, no idea why you included that as those are roller bearings. They look OK by the way.

Pic 4 is worrying, the initial pics of the crank shells disguised the fact they are quite marked, the condition of them is consistent with not changing the oil often enough, hence all the little speckle marks all over the surface, may have been left with very dirty oil in the engine for years which would also do it. The marks though are quite bad, if they are all like that your going to have to fit new shells, sorry. Have you checked the conrod shells yet? Don't mix them up as I've said before.

Why is there only me commenting on this guys, come on weigh in with some opinions.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Trigger on October 26, 2016, 07:52:14 AM
Well those are better.

The rocker I can see looks ok, the other is too dark to make out properly.

The cam is scored, it may be that whatever marked the cylinder head lodged there and just scored the cam as it went past. The camcover doesn't really show the same markings so it looks like whatever caused the scoring didn't fly around the journal, may have been a piece of dirt left in the journal when the cam was dropped into place.

Pic 3 is of the gearbox bearing surfaces, no idea why you included that as those are roller bearings. They look OK by the way.

Pic 4 is worrying, the initial pics of the crank shells disguised the fact they are quite marked, the condition of them is consistent with not changing the oil often enough, hence all the little speckle marks all over the surface, may have been left with very dirty oil in the engine for years which would also do it. The marks though are quite bad, if they are all like that your going to have to fit new shells, sorry. Have you checked the conrod shells yet? Don't mix them up as I've said before.

Why is there only me commenting on this guys, come on weigh in with some opinions.

Sorry mate, I have been following this thread but, find it hard to comment on engines just from photos. Engine running surfaces can be a little bit like a chrome part, looks great in a photo but, up close and personal you see all the defects.
Saying that, most of the running surfaces look damaged in one way or another.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Bryanj on October 26, 2016, 08:14:13 AM
Honnest opinion is replace the lot. cam followers look like crap which means i don't trust the cam; head bearings are worn; looks like one piston had metal bits on the top---possibly a broken ring; the two valves shown on there own look god awfull and pocketed and the shells look dirt contaminated Then the biggest horror story is the red hemetite!!!
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on October 26, 2016, 02:19:40 PM
Oh damn, I was thinking the same but didn't want to say it in case I was wrong. As you say Graham parts can look ok in a pic but worse in real life.

I missed the piston damage, TBH I was kinda horrified at seeing all that Red Hermetite, brought flash backs from the 70s  :) I may have to start therapy again.

I'm really sorry Cantarauk but it looks very much like your going to have major expense getting that back to a decent condition.

I'd certainly say to replace the shells, all of them I'm afraid. Change the primary chain and damper rubbers, camchain and depending on condition the tensioner slipper, remove the barrels and see how the liners look, remove a piston ring and check end gap in the liner. It may be that the engine has just had a new set of rings, as Bryan says the piston damage does look like something like a broke ring has been flying around in there. Pour some petrol down the inlet and exhaust ports and see if any of the valves are leaking, I'd remove them anyway but see what they are like first, change valve stem seals as they perish over time.

I hate seeing an engine looking like that, however all is not lost, it can be reclaimed, it just ain't going to be cheap or a quick fix.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: matthewmosse on October 27, 2016, 11:53:58 PM
I have nailed together worse and gotten tens of thousands of miles out of them with fair reliability, but have also had better condition engines conk out after not a lot of miles. If it were me I would nail it togther and run as is whilst looking for a better example. That said I have a few spares sat ready so am not in the unfortunate possition of having to buy at todays prices which a quick look at ebay tells me seem to be climbing. You could throw a lot of money at that engine but still be running mostly components that have had a hard life running in dirty oil in all probability. Looked after these engines can look way less worn after 200k on the clock, not looked after I have seen engines from 35k ( recorded milage )  bikes where the engine is totally trashed. Unfortunately the only way to see onmost engines is to buy then open them up and see/ run and fingers crossed, not many engines turn up that are really known good so searching out a better example is a bit of a russian roulette game, you can turn up some duds along the line, though most have some valuable bits in that make long term life with a classic more affordable in the long term if you can store a few parts motors just in case.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: royhall on October 28, 2016, 07:40:02 AM
Honnest opinion is replace the lot. cam followers look like crap which means i don't trust the cam; head bearings are worn; looks like one piston had metal bits on the top---possibly a broken ring; the two valves shown on there own look god awfull and pocketed and the shells look dirt contaminated Then the biggest horror story is the red hemetite!!!
Couldn't agree more. The cam and some of the followers are toast. Going to cost a few bob to put that right. £1000 plus just for the bits me thinks.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on October 28, 2016, 05:14:26 PM
I was sat here wondering how you could say that Roy as I had really only seen one pic of a rocker and it didn't look that bad, that saying the angle is was sat at prevented you from seeing all the surface. Then I started to look at some of the other pics and I noticed they did show some rockers, I was looking at the bearing surfaces and didn't spot them until I looked harder. And yes, you are correct Roy, some of the ones I can see are stepped on the crown, quite common to see that but does show considerable wear has occurred. As Matt has said I've used stuff worse than that and it's lasted a while, however they've never really lasted without some problems occurring, either burning oil or a loss of power.

I must have a look at the cam cover I have with the rockers still mounted and see how they look. 
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: royhall on October 28, 2016, 05:21:27 PM
There are a few pics that show the rocker cam contact area and at least 2 are done for. The cam also shows some damage that would stop me using it again. Can't really see the shells as they are still coated in oil and are a bit reflective.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Trigger on October 28, 2016, 05:52:40 PM
There are a few pics that show the rocker cam contact area and at least 2 are done for. The cam also shows some damage that would stop me using it again. Can't really see the shells as they are still coated in oil and are a bit reflective.

The shells would look OK to a blind man ;D
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: royhall on October 28, 2016, 05:52:45 PM
Hi Oddjob,

I have taken more pictures please see below:

(https://s12.postimg.org/ir0v316g9/IMG_6466.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/ir0v316g9/)

(https://s15.postimg.org/3nek0ll9z/IMG_6467.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/3nek0ll9z/)

(https://s10.postimg.org/enchmcd5x/IMG_6468.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/enchmcd5x/)

(https://s18.postimg.org/53fvdimlx/IMG_6469.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/53fvdimlx/)

and then of the camshaft( let me know if this is the angle you meant)

(https://s16.postimg.org/dd76aesq9/IMG_6476.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/dd76aesq9/)

(https://s15.postimg.org/yr7em090n/IMG_6480.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/yr7em090n/)

(https://s21.postimg.org/qzo41prxv/IMG_6482.jpg) (https://postimg.org/image/qzo41prxv/)
OddJob. These are the pictures I was looking at for the cam followers/rockers. Toast I think.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: royhall on October 28, 2016, 05:54:53 PM
There are a few pics that show the rocker cam contact area and at least 2 are done for. The cam also shows some damage that would stop me using it again. Can't really see the shells as they are still coated in oil and are a bit reflective.

The shells would look OK to a blind man ;D
How did you know I sell blinds for a living. ;D
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Trigger on October 28, 2016, 05:58:37 PM
There are a few pics that show the rocker cam contact area and at least 2 are done for. The cam also shows some damage that would stop me using it again. Can't really see the shells as they are still coated in oil and are a bit reflective.

The shells would look OK to a blind man ;D
How did you know I sell blinds for a living. ;D


Don't ask me how i know these things  ;D
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Bryanj on October 28, 2016, 06:28:58 PM
No  (or is that yes) Master!!!
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: matthewmosse on October 28, 2016, 07:09:25 PM
Crikey, I'm now at my brother in laws where internet actually happens and the pictures load in less than 10 minuites a picture. Yeah, followers toast, gonna wear fast once through the case hardened layer. A fair geuss the cam lobes will have suffered. Deffinately start looking for a better example.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on October 28, 2016, 07:31:14 PM
Did you misinterpret my comments Roy? I was agreeing with you, I just hadn't spotted the followers in the other pics as I was looking at the journals, missed the bigger pic so to speak.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: matthewmosse on October 28, 2016, 08:25:32 PM
Anyone got a good cam to photograph end on? Looking at full size, those cam profiles look kind of too rounded? I'm going from memory here as my cams are all at home where the internet is painfully slow and that is 180 miles away.
I've looked on ebay at engines, I could let a cb550 mill go for the same price as dk spares and at least test run it on a bench and if needed pull the rocker cover off to inspect the top end. I might even be able to get it dropped off in Leeds on my way to York if I or dad visits Gran at some point. I think based on photos so far that that engine is looking kida past where I would draw the line for a motor I wanted to save vs sourcing a better one, though it probably has good parts. My geuss is heamatite has blocked or restricted the oilways to the head causing partial oil starvation to the cam on one side, hence worn rocker faces, and I would be expecting similar camshaft wear. Checking the crank for wear is beyond my own expirience but I would not be surprised if run for long with the rockers wearing like that to find the oil being contaminated causing further wear.
Check the cam lobes for any sighns of a wear lip to the sides, one of the rockers / followers has sutch a ridge I think showing in one of the photos if I look carefully ( immage 6468, bottom left ). They should be pretty smooth, anything that would snag your glove or finger nail is probably bad news.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 01, 2016, 09:14:29 PM
Thank you all for the replies which I have been reading a few times over and then researching when I have the free time. As mentioned I am fairly technical/mechanical but very new to a complete rebuild so all the advice comment have been really useful.

From what I can gather the consensus is that the engine has seen better days but what I need to know is it worth saving or getting a new one. I am not one to give up and agree with a previous comment about parts been expensive and scarce so would be prepared to invest time, effort and money if just to save this one.

Let me know your thoughts. In the meantime I am going to build a large To Do list which I will post should I decide to go the "save" route.

Glenn
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Bryanj on November 02, 2016, 09:12:05 AM
everything is rebuild able if you have the cash and time, used engines are now getting scarce, expensive and may be just as bad. Some parts, like shells, are getting very difficult to source. What you really need is a US contact as spares seem easier over there
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: matthewmosse on November 02, 2016, 06:46:08 PM
Ap incorporated have supplied me with a few motors for cb550 over the years, worth giving them a call in case they have any in stock here or due shipping in. - being inporters of classic vehicles they might be prepared to come to an arrangement on shipping things from Usa. I think I still have engines I bought off them on the simple basis that it costs the same to bung one on a crate and ship it as a few. Milages are unknown but they say genrally very low. Like dk spares they don't open engines up to check internal health, at best, they will fire them up on the bike before breaking it and offer a 30 day garuntee provided you don't open it up and start messing - only fair as most dead engines I have seen are down to erronious rebuild work when stripped, though camchain tensioners disintergrating presumably from age has happened on a couple of engines over the years.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on April 10, 2017, 09:22:01 PM
Hi,

Been a while since I posted here but been very busy on a large project at work and also very cold in the garage for this South African to do much work. After the initial advice I have taken the plunge to repair the engine I have rather than replace it with a different potentially same condition engine. That said I have been in contact with SEP in Kegworth to work on the all damaged parts getting them in a fit state ready for rebuild. The work they are undertaking is listed below and any comments/help/additions would be appreciated


- Camshaft
    - Check runout is within serviceable spec
    - Hard weld and regrind
    - Engineer camshaft journals to correctly fit camshaft

CrankShaft
    - check runout is within serviceable spec
    - measure and fit new bearings
- Conrods measure and fit new bearings

Cylinder head
   - Cut and reseat valves
   - Measure and replace springs if required
   - Change valve stem seals
 
To add to this  they are also blasting the bottom case and jugs which will save me a job later.

Once I get all the hardware back I will be sure to post some images for second option ions but as mentioned if there is anything I have missed of please do not hesitate

G
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: florence on April 14, 2017, 08:23:41 AM
The original engine for my bike was so worn in every part it was totally unusable and used more oil per mile than petrol.  In 1995 I relaced it with a low mileage one from DK.  They sent me three altogether.  The first two I stripped to inspect and sent them back as they were not as 'low mileage' as expected. 

However, the third one was very good.  DK told me it had done 7000 miles.  The top fin on the cylinder head was damaged but I'm not bothered by that sort of thing. It was very interesting to see the difference, everything inside and out looked new. I stripped it completely and rebuilt using new cam chain and tensioner and used the rebored barrel and pistons I already had, keeping the almost perfect DK one as a spare.  Since then I have changed the oil and filter every 1000 miles and adjusted things at regular intervals.  I have to say it's done very well so far, fingers crossed.

Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on September 30, 2020, 09:54:38 AM
It has been three years since I updated here and to be honest with some large projects and been seconded out I have not really been home for the past two years.

Thanks for the contacts regarding engine replacements of which I did speak to them but in the end decided to go the difficult route and got the parts machined and where required sourced to re-build. I will be adding images soon of where I am at now that parts are coming out of storage as it is easier now with a bigger space to work.

I have started creating a shopping list to get the bottom done and so far come up with

Crankcase

3 x O-Ring         91315-044-000
1 x O-Ring         91319-300-000

Gear Shift Fork

1 x Spring         22421-040-000 -?
3 x Clip             24263-286-000
1 x Spring         24435-323-000 -?
1 x Spring         24435-323-020 -?
1 x Oil Seal        91201-292-003
1 x O-Ring         91304-216-000

Gear Shift Spindle

1 x Spring           24641-216-000 -?
1 x Oil Seal         91202-216-000 / 91205-HB2-772


Transmission

4 x CIR-Clip         90602-259-010
1 x Bearing          91001-283-003
1 x Bearing          91002-286-008
1 x Bearing          91022-286-016
1 x Oil Seal          91203-292-003 / 91203-292-005
1 x Oil Seal          91205-283-010
1 x O-Ring           91306-703-000

Primary Shaft

8 x Rubber Primary    23114-323-000 -?
1 x Primary chain       23131-323-000
1 x Spring                 28125-323-000
1 x Cir-Clip                90602-259-010
1 x Bearing               91005-323-004
1 x Bearing               91007-323-000
1 x Cir-Clip               94510-30000
1 x Bearing               96100-62050


Crankshaft

10 x crankshaft bearings - per requirement
8 x connecting rod bearing - per requirement
1 x Oil Seal              91201-300-003
1 x Oil Seal              91201-323-005

If I am missing anything please let me know and what to look out for. Then I was going to ask if anyone replaced washers when doing a rebuild or only if they are in a bad shape ?
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Bryanj on September 30, 2020, 12:50:34 PM
Oil seal kit is better than individuals
O rings are frequently in gasket sets but depends on make( only difference 500 to 550 set is the clutch cover gasket)
An identical Kawasaki primary chain is half the Honda price.

If i think of anything else i will add it later
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on September 30, 2020, 01:04:07 PM
Thanks for the advice on the Kawa primary chain and at £48 some extra savings there which is great

As for kits - Vesrah or Athena ?
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: philward on September 30, 2020, 01:24:23 PM
What model Kawasaki as I will be needing one over the coming months
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on September 30, 2020, 01:45:48 PM
Looks to be the following from a very quick search -

Kawasaki GPZ GT Z ZR 550 GPX GPZ ZL 600

https://www.bikeparts-vintage.de/Primary-Chain-for-Honda-CB-500-550-650-Kawasaki-GPZ-GT-Z-ZR-550-GPX-GPZ-ZL-600

https://www.fowlersparts.co.uk/parts/view/92057-1011
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Bryanj on September 30, 2020, 02:59:17 PM
I always swore by NP but they are difficult to get now, due to having a "stock" i havent used either of those mentioned so cant comment, Trigger would be one to ask
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on September 30, 2020, 05:41:02 PM
Are you not replacing the camchain? can't see it on the list.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on September 30, 2020, 05:49:11 PM
I will be Oddjob. Just on the list for upper part of engine
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on October 06, 2020, 10:41:25 PM
Two queries today please if anyone can help.

1. Am I right in assuming needle bearing is not supposed to look like this and there is meant to be some plastic holding the needles in ?

(https://i.ibb.co/s1sKcds/IMG-5269.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DMw9mHw)


2. What is an easy way to remove and replace the bearing that sits under/next to the oil guides in the bottom case ?

(https://i.ibb.co/c64DBZX/IMG-5272.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v30ZFTv)
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Trigger on October 06, 2020, 11:13:47 PM
That is the way that the roller is, just a cage and pins. The over one is just pins.
You knock the bearing out from the other side, there is a cut away to do this.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on October 07, 2020, 08:27:38 PM
Trigger when you say the other one do you mean No 24 from below

(https://i.ibb.co/BgVsZNB/Screen-Shot-2020-10-07-at-20-21-03.png) (https://ibb.co/tbMCsXD)


As this is what I have as a needle bearing inside No 24 which has plastic holding the pins in. If the other one was the same and the plastic has broken it would explain all the black bits I found in the case when I stripped it down

(https://i.ibb.co/BGGVcBH/IMG-5273.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LrrzY1D)

Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Bryanj on October 07, 2020, 11:41:50 PM
They are different and the loose rollers one is correct where it is
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on October 08, 2020, 08:57:39 AM
Ok thanks Bryanj.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on October 13, 2020, 10:11:52 AM
Part are coming in thick and fast and I am now just waiting on the primary chain before I can make a start at re-building.

Digging through all the bags of nuts, bolts and screws this is the one thing that I left until last and could delay the build start. The engine was originally painted assembled so all the fastening hardware is black with scuff marks so not very good in appearance.

So I believe options are to clean up and plate the ones I have or replace with new. If I chose the plating option could anyone suggest the best way to go about this and also any useful contacts who could do this for me.

Researching the replace with new option I believe at a Class 8.8 (grade 5) or class 10.9 (grade 8 ) should suffice. There are sites that offer hardware in these strengths but my question firstly is if this is a requirement for the stronger bolts or just BS.

If stronger is better then in the UK what would the best place be to get hold of SS Hex head bolts or 12PT as shown below - Also the places I found do break the bank so interested in best financially viable options

I do like the hex head with hollow on the head

(https://i.ibb.co/rbLrB3w/SSHX870-SM1200.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Q8qwWkK)

(https://i.ibb.co/4p84gRn/OLYMPUS-DIGITAL-CAMERA.jpg) (https://imgbb.com/)





Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 08, 2020, 05:54:04 PM
Primary chain has arrived and in the meantime I have been cleaning parts so as to be ready to assemble.

(https://i.ibb.co/zrQJgPk/IMG-5451.jpg) (https://ibb.co/80NcwPh)

What I was going to ask is what anti-seize compound so people use for the fastening hardware. There seems to be mixed reviews between copper and zinc/nickel based products with zin/nickel been the preferred option. Within the UK there do not  seem to be many option for the zinc/nickel compound so your advise/views would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Laverda Dave on November 08, 2020, 07:52:20 PM
You should replace the circlips if you have removed them from the gearshifts.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 08, 2020, 09:37:55 PM
On it. Clips, seals, o-ring, gaskets all news and ready

(https://i.ibb.co/HBztrWq/IMG-5527.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Ntj9L8K)

(https://i.ibb.co/940NMBG/IMG-5583.jpg) (https://ibb.co/X5Pbw6V)

(https://i.ibb.co/FzLJVpq/IMG-5591.jpg) (https://ibb.co/njNfCp8)
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 10, 2020, 09:18:38 PM
Most of the components required for the engine assemble have arrived so I will be making a start at building the motor. Since this is the first time I have undertaken such a task I will be taking it slow documenting everything.

The engine cases have been cleaned and sprayed and baked

(https://i.ibb.co/X7zsh6Q/IMG-5329.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QP6N2hg)

(https://i.ibb.co/h9fYFY5/IMG-5408.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dMgm4m9)
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 10, 2020, 09:37:50 PM
There seem to be different ways to do this but I have opted to start with the top half of the case seated on a homemade made frame to keep it steady.

Gear shift and drum inserted first with each part well lubricated with assembly lube.

(https://i.ibb.co/kXszhdK/IMG-5500.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9WkBqMn)

Looking at the top half of the case with the crackshaft to be positioned at the top. Drum lubricated and inserted from the left side of the case with the left gear shift fork assembled with the pin and circlip side facing the left.

(https://i.ibb.co/hdn1Yww/IMG-5504.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dp3Jmxx)

Next gear shift fork B assembled with the pin hole and circlip side facing the right hand side of case.

(https://i.ibb.co/DCwRjCr/IMG-5513.jpg) (https://ibb.co/r65wX6d)

The right gear shift fork assembled again with the pin hole and circlip facing the right

(https://i.ibb.co/F4hN1gz/IMG-5518.jpg) (https://ibb.co/xq2PbJ6)

New oil seal inserted and the drum pushed completely in

(https://i.ibb.co/JsyZNPx/IMG-5532.jpg) (https://ibb.co/87dkJVz)

Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Nurse Julie on November 10, 2020, 10:34:52 PM
Great work.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 21, 2020, 06:24:59 PM
Starter gear and shaft cleaned lubricated and installed with the M6 retaining hex bolt torqued down to 1.0 Kg-Meter

(https://i.ibb.co/NmWN5dS/IMG-5543.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fnrNfzv)

(https://i.ibb.co/tHB951d/IMG-5548.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yN0rJx3)



(https://i.ibb.co/6Ym5P6k/IMG-5563.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zsrwRKz)


Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: K2-K6 on November 21, 2020, 06:37:16 PM
Nice work cantarauk, also one of the most enjoyable parts of rebuild after all the cleaning etc.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 21, 2020, 06:47:10 PM
Conrods cleaned with new shell bearings that were measured to match the crankshaft specifications. 

(https://i.ibb.co/nMmxJd5/IMG-5601.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0y2Hb4d)

Crankshaft was sent off to machine shop to be measure and balanced. New crankcase shells that were matched to the work the machine shop did in meeting the required specifications. Crankshaft cleaned and then greased well before returned to me.

(https://i.ibb.co/VV59smH/IMG-5607.jpg) (https://ibb.co/H734jdN)


To the left on the image new Cam Chain and Primary chain

(https://i.ibb.co/5rd7QyZ/IMG-5596.jpg) (https://ibb.co/VgdKFZ6)


New shells about to go in

(https://i.ibb.co/5RgWHqs/IMG-5615.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6W7RC6D)


Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 21, 2020, 06:48:05 PM
Thank you K2-K6. Taking my time as loads of reading to do to be sure I don't screw anything up
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Macabethiele (Ted) on November 21, 2020, 07:00:37 PM
All looks nice and clean.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 21, 2020, 07:08:17 PM
New shells inserted fully

(https://i.ibb.co/hFy904H/IMG-5639.jpg) (https://ibb.co/5h64ZSv)

Camchain and Primary Chain fed onto the Crankshaft and in position with the crankshaft dropped into the top case

(https://i.ibb.co/6mJGHgh/IMG-5647.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kx6z4Qn)

Oil seals for both sides of the crankshaft
(https://i.ibb.co/5jBdhtz/IMG-5644.jpg) (https://ibb.co/n1zTMZV)

(https://i.ibb.co/55Tq31Z/IMG-5645.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mHJQKRp)


Conrods connected, bolted up and nuts torqued down to 2.0 Kg-Meter

(https://i.ibb.co/xC1yy5q/IMG-5651.jpg) (https://ibb.co/WxkQQKv)


Top view of it all nice and snug in the case

(https://i.ibb.co/dQt1Xhy/IMG-5667.jpg) (https://ibb.co/LCrbBGf)


Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Trigger on November 22, 2020, 01:16:56 AM
Not sure what you have on the back of the shells but, they should be dry to the case and rods  ;)
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Skoti on November 22, 2020, 09:36:28 AM
Nice job and great photos,

I've never seen the crank journals greased up like that before assembly, is that standard practice?

I normally just oil them lightly.


Good luck with the rebuild

Skoti.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 22, 2020, 01:33:54 PM
Tigger metal on metal got it. Will clean and re-seat the shells

Skoti - Cheers. The crank and conrods both came back like that from the machine shop covered in grease and to be honest I too quiet a bit off before connecting up and dropping in.

This is what it came back like - Crankshaft was covered thicker

(https://i.ibb.co/YBvzVDp/IMG-5654.jpg) (https://ibb.co/d4ndHbG)
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: philward on November 22, 2020, 02:04:20 PM
Nice job and great photos,

I've never seen the crank journals greased up like that before assembly, is that standard practice?

I normally just oil them lightly.


Good luck with the rebuild

Skoti.

Most of the experts on here recommend using Grafogen (proberly spelt wrong!) as an assembly grease - to ensure pre oil pressure lubrication of metal to metal surfaces such as big ends, mains, cam journals, etc.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 22, 2020, 09:52:14 PM
Need three things checking please as I hope some of these are correct but could do with a Jedi/Expert opinion to validate.

For the Countershaft assembly No 19 and No 20 on the image is the way I put these washer back correct

(https://i.ibb.co/tstvwc5/Screen-Shot-2020-11-22-at-21-27-43.png) (https://ibb.co/pz8M6Zp)

The way I put these back below but I am more interest in washer 20 to see if the turned pieces went in the correct way. No 19 I assumed is the flat washer and No No 20 the washer that has bent ears for the I/D piece.

(https://i.ibb.co/Kx9XV9R/IMG-5710.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0yfcYf8)

(https://i.ibb.co/wc2RnJY/IMG-5714.jpg) (https://ibb.co/8YQ0yzX)


The second thing I need checking is with the Mainshaft when I stripped it down there were 2 washers where No 18 is.

(https://i.ibb.co/kH0bgxv/Screen-Shot-2020-11-22-at-21-35-48.png) (https://ibb.co/Lk6jz8H)

I started putting this back without the second washer. Below is what I found when I stripped the Main shaft down for cleaning.

(https://i.ibb.co/b5V79xk/IMG-5587.jpg) (https://ibb.co/XxPVR9q)

(https://i.ibb.co/x2VymLB/IMG-5589.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0nPkB26)

The 3rd query is reading the Haynes manual when inserting the second drive it says - " Ensure that a new oil seal has been fitted to the secondary drive sprocket end of the layshaft and that a new O ring positioned behind the oil spacer" From the parts images above I can't see this O ring only the one that fits between the bearing and the fixed positioner on the mainshaft No 3.

page where I read this added below -

(https://i.ibb.co/VqY6hpB/IMG-5806.jpg) (https://ibb.co/9rHPf3Y)

I did not remove the bearing No 22 all the way to No 7 only No 19 to No 24 for cleaning. So assume O ring No 27 is still there
 
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Skoti on November 23, 2020, 08:42:06 AM
Nice job and great photos,

I've never seen the crank journals greased up like that before assembly, is that standard practice?

I normally just oil them lightly.


Good luck with the rebuild

Skoti.

Most of the experts on here recommend using Grafogen (proberly spelt wrong!) as an assembly grease - to ensure pre oil pressure lubrication of metal to metal surfaces such as big ends, mains, cam journals, etc.



Phil,

thanks for the Graphogen tip, it's something we never used or had in the seventies when I worked in a Honda franchise. Although I remember using something similar during the eighties in the motor trade whilst renewing MK1 Astra camshafts.

As ever I'm always learning new stuff from the posts and fantastic photo documented rebuilds on this website.

Regards

Skoti

 
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Bryanj on November 23, 2020, 09:49:16 AM
I was delivering car perts when the Astra/Cavalier had the cam troubles and every dealer was waiting for camshaft/follower sets.
There used to be a proceedure for first start up, something like 3 minutes at 4000 rpm followed by 2 minutes at 2000 rpm before you let it tick over. Something to do with oil flow quantity
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 26, 2020, 01:26:50 PM
Any comments to the post on 22nd about washer an o-ring question
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Bryanj on November 26, 2020, 03:57:00 PM
Would it be part 27
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 26, 2020, 04:08:50 PM
Bryan,

Thinking about again it must be as the spacer is the bearing looking think attached to the shaft itself. Now I never removed all the gears on that shaft as I could not figure out how to get No 7 off. Would it be best to try again and replace the o-ring or would I be good with that one.

Also any view on the extra washer that was on mainshaft ?
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Bryanj on November 26, 2020, 09:23:46 PM
Never changed one so dont know
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on November 26, 2020, 11:10:58 PM
The O-Ring 27 is between the bearing and the collar on the shaft, it’s really thin IIRC and isn’t visible until you remove the bearing, which I’ve only had to do once. I suspect part 19 is the eared washer with 20 being what’s called the thrust washer. I should have both those washers NOS along with every gear and shaft except 1 for a complete NOS gearbox, if so I’ll compare part numbers to see which is which.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 27, 2020, 09:33:42 AM
Thanks both.

For now I have assembled as per the photos with the flat washer first toward the sprocket end against No7 and then the ear-washer after with the ears towards No 9. So from your understanding could be wrong. Oddjob, If you could please check the part numbers it would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on November 27, 2020, 09:34:46 AM
Will have a look tonight when I get home.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Trigger on November 27, 2020, 01:51:32 PM
Had a little time today so, split this gear box so, you can see how it split as you can't go off a manual  ;)

The circlips must be wround the correct way as, there is a flat side. The washer with the tags fits inside the washer once that washer is turned and acts as a lock.


[attachimg=1]



[attachimg=2]


[attachimg=3]


[attachimg=4]


[attachimg=5]



Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 27, 2020, 02:09:03 PM
That is brilliant thank you very much.

Was going to ask second gear No7 in parts image did that come off easy enough as mine seems stuck.

Then for circlips any reason why not to use similar to below.

(https://i.ibb.co/6DB6KbF/Screen-Shot-2020-11-27-at-14-06-57.png) (https://ibb.co/3SztxWc)

Washer with the tags that I have the wrong way round so thank you very much I will have to go and rectify that.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Bryanj on November 27, 2020, 03:07:29 PM
 Dont think you can use that type of circlip as the ears are too big
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 27, 2020, 05:26:45 PM
Hi Bryan,

I had a few of the circlips I order a while back and did a quick assemble using them.

(https://i.ibb.co/cNtK3BJ/IMG-5821.jpg) (https://ibb.co/brLjm01)

(https://i.ibb.co/dW166V3/IMG-5824.jpg) (https://ibb.co/cgMttZp)

The ears are a bit big but do pretty much align with the end of the washer. Any good ?

Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Trigger on November 27, 2020, 05:42:09 PM
You CAN NOT use that type as, it does not have a running surface. you need the type like the Honda ones that have flat one side and a bevel sided  ;)
What happened to the ones you took off ?
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 27, 2020, 06:04:19 PM
Roger that Tigger.

The one I took off has a kink in the middle like it was bent and then straightened. From the initial inspection of the engine I made a decision to strip down completely as I was very unsure about how well it had been assembled in the past. If recall at the start of this post I found a primary chain link in the oil pan and also terrible wear on cam, and cam head surface bearings.

I have 550 engine so will steal one of there and replace that one when I get around to the 550.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Trigger on November 27, 2020, 07:08:20 PM
Set rings (Honda circlips)are ready available for a couple of quid, 90602259010  ;)
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 27, 2020, 08:04:03 PM
Cheers

Placed a David silver order straight after I sent that post as I realised I did not fancy all the work to get them from the other engine. I can wait a few days
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 27, 2020, 08:41:43 PM
On closer inspection of the pictures you sent over Trigger I was still wondering why the second gear (No 7 in parts list) was stuck. I gave it quite a few taps and got it off the shaft but guess what I found is not what I wanted to.

Image of the shaft where the second gear came off. Am I right in assuming this means it needs replacing ?

(https://i.ibb.co/pPm9wDL/IMG-5830.jpg) (https://ibb.co/TTCF2Xg)

(https://i.ibb.co/q06xQ8d/IMG-5831.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6vQNCSm)

Then the gear itself -

(https://i.ibb.co/0JwtnhM/IMG-5832.jpg) (https://ibb.co/nkWCwzc)


I can only assume something has gone in and around here or am I off the mark ?

 

 
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Trigger on November 27, 2020, 10:10:03 PM
Always worth stripping a gear box down as, you never know what you will find  :o Looks like oil starvation but, not much heat. Expensive to find a good replacement  ::)
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 27, 2020, 10:21:21 PM
Is the shaft the same as the 550 ?
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Trigger on November 27, 2020, 11:30:24 PM
Is the shaft the same as the 550 ?

Nope, 550 is 374 and the 500 is 323  ;)
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on November 28, 2020, 09:41:19 AM
20 is the thrust washer and 19 is the tabbed washer.

Were you aware that the tabbed washer is used to lock the thrust washer into place, in that the tabs don't face toward the gears , they face toward the thrust washer.

Oh and the 2 washer thing, the smaller holed washer is the correct one, I suspect that whoever re-built the box forgot where things go and put the clutch basket thrust washer onto the mainshaft instead, was there a washer behind the clutch basket?
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 28, 2020, 10:42:26 AM
Hi Oddjob,

Thank you for checking and getting back to me.

I was not aware of which way the lock and tab washers faced but after very close inspection from Triggers images I gather I had assembled incorrectly. Upon stripping down again I was still puzzled to why the second gear was stuck to shaft and difficult to remove so I made an effort to get this off and inspect further as you can read from above.

Will check the bag with all the clutch parts and also the photos I have when I stripped down and get back to you and thanks for the steer and advice.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 28, 2020, 11:00:05 AM
Is the shaft the same as the 550 ?

Nope, 550 is 374 and the 500 is 323  ;)

Trigger can I ask if I find a good condition second hand one how would I tell the difference between a 500 and 550 as the images in the parts manuals look the same. I know I can't trust the manual so advice appreciated
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on November 28, 2020, 01:24:14 PM
My initial thought was that the 500 and 550 are interchangeable, I’m not 100% sure of this without checking and I’m at work right now. The 550 countershaft was changed from the 500, hence the different part number, however I strongly suspect that the only difference was internal and not external. Some of the 500s suffered from needle bearing failure due to lack of oil, to prevent this Honda fitted a small oil pump inside the needle bearing and to run this fitted a small gear internally inside the countershaft, this I suspect is why it had to change part number. Fit the 500 needle bearing on it and I think it should fit. You’d need to compare the 500 and 550 shafts side by side to check of course but I think they are identical except for that gear, the gears however are not so you’d need to use the 500 gears on the 550 shaft. Compare part numbers for 2nd gear as that gear may be the same on both engines.

I threw 3 countershafts out last year, couldn’t see the need to keep them, however I would have kept at least one as a just in case part along with a spare set of gears. I’d need to dig in my big box of bits but I’m fairly sure I’ll have what you need. If I have you can have them foc, just pay postage which may be high as the shaft is heavy.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Trigger on November 28, 2020, 01:45:23 PM
Is the shaft the same as the 550 ?

Nope, 550 is 374 and the 500 is 323  ;)

Trigger can I ask if I find a good condition second hand one how would I tell the difference between a 500 and 550 as the images in the parts manuals look the same. I know I can't trust the manual so advice appreciated


The 550 (374) has 3 groves in the shaft and the 500 (323) has 2 groves in the shaft. That is the easy way to visually identify them   ;)
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on November 28, 2020, 05:28:01 PM
Oddjob if you have on that would be great thank you

Tigger not sure I understand what you mean by grooves. Image below from shaft I removed from 500 (Had to do some dremel work to get the washer and 2/3rd gear out due to the damage) Are we talking the pink or blue in the image or am i way off.

(https://i.ibb.co/pZdDy5c/IMG-5861.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZKxsm75)
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Trigger on November 28, 2020, 06:31:54 PM
Yes they are the groves but, i think that i maybe  wrong about the groves >>> https://www.cmsnl.com/honda-cb500k2-four-1973-usa_model461/countershaft-trns_23220323000/#.X8KWhOlxepg

I only have 500 gearboxes in the workshop at the moment. I will have to go to the stores to find a 550 so, i can compare  :o
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on November 28, 2020, 10:51:16 PM
2nd gear counter shaft is the same as the 550. Only 2 of the gears are not and that's the 1st and 5th gears or as you look at the countershaft the first on and the last on.  The other 3 gears are the same for the 500 and 550. That includes all the circlips and thrust washers. I pretty certain you could at a pinch use the 550 countershaft in the 500 so long as you use all the 500 gears and needle bearing, except of course for your wrecked 2nd gear, use that one off the 550.

I'll have a look for a spare 2nd and countershaft for you on Monday as I'm working all day tomorrow
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on December 01, 2020, 06:14:26 PM
Thanks all for the help, advise and guidance. New 2nd gear and countershaft on its way so be working through all the info above to get this assembled again. Did not want to take the chance with the parts after what I found.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on December 09, 2020, 06:51:49 PM
New (well) parts have arrived so can kick this off again

(https://i.ibb.co/dJr6ZQW/IMG-6028.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vvHm9Jw)

(https://i.ibb.co/rdz4kBc/IMG-6030.jpg) (https://ibb.co/7kZ2v3R)

Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on December 09, 2020, 08:40:54 PM
If the new shaft is anything like mine from DS the bearing grease has virtually solidified, you can only move the bearing with effort. Wash it in petrol if that's the case with yours. 
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on December 09, 2020, 08:51:19 PM
Just went to go and check and yes exactly the same moving but requires effort. Also some surface rust on the bearing but will clean that up
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on December 10, 2020, 09:51:52 PM
Been re-assembling the countershaft and when it comes to the thrust washer and the tab washer is there some special way you get these assembled ? I have put the thrust washer in first so it sits against the new replacement second gear and then the lock washer with the tabs facing the thrust washer. What I have now is a gap between the thrust and lock washer because of the lock washer tabs.

What am i doing wrong ?

(https://i.ibb.co/9pff8rF/IMG-6087.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Gd11x5K)

(https://i.ibb.co/xjjDTWb/IMG-6088.jpg) (https://ibb.co/NjjsB5q)

Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Bryanj on December 10, 2020, 10:19:12 PM
Its a long time but i remember the tabs being only ever other groove and the thrust being the same so the tabs went into the thrust
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Trigger on December 10, 2020, 11:12:49 PM
You have it correct but, push the first washer down and place the tab washer on top as, you have in your second picture. Then turn the first washer in the groove on the shaft and the tab washer will key in  ;)

With your first washer and the circlips you, must have these facing the correct way.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on December 11, 2020, 08:07:42 AM
Thank both. Trigger what you said made sense and I checked with out the 2nd gear. Seems the gear I have been sent is the wrong part and is longer which is why the washer was not able to use the grove to rotate so the lock washer can drop in. Compared to the old damaged gear and it is noticeable.

New on the left

(https://i.ibb.co/Lzf79D2/IMG-6099.jpg) (https://ibb.co/tM5rYwW)

(https://i.ibb.co/zJZxfqN/IMG-6100.jpg) (https://ibb.co/JQHtkDC)

Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on January 09, 2021, 01:29:06 PM
With the new parts that arrived and over the Xmas period to escape the insanity of been cooped up I braved the cold in the  garage to get some more work done.

Mainshaft assembly

All parts cleaned and checked 
(https://i.ibb.co/C0tvdRg/IMG-5587.jpg) (https://ibb.co/vzBm50p)

Before the first gear goes on the shaft there should be a circlip against the bearing. Note - Circlips are Honda specific which are flat one side and rounded/curved the other and shaped as show below.
(https://i.ibb.co/XVpXLcc/IMG-6042.jpg) (https://ibb.co/rvMk0DD)

Forth gear then gets pushed against the bearing flat side first.
(https://i.ibb.co/5srvknx/IMG-6062.jpg) (https://ibb.co/frkt9nG)

Next the thurst washer and circlip to hold the gear in place
(https://i.ibb.co/zxdpZrd/IMG-5676.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bmtTXPt)

2nd and third mainshaft gear
(https://i.ibb.co/Lz57jmx/IMG-5678.jpg) (https://ibb.co/Kjwv4d2)

mainshaft top gear
(https://i.ibb.co/GJgzmf6/IMG-5683.jpg) (https://ibb.co/dcn8ZsT)

thrust washer
(https://i.ibb.co/bzf5CYK/IMG-5685.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yW3FZKQ)

roller bearing and then all painted with some assembly lube
(https://i.ibb.co/7Cm2rSM/IMG-5696.jpg) (https://ibb.co/kBCQqGb)

Drop the mainshaft into the top case aligning the middle gear shifter fork to sit between second and third gear. Align pin with the roller bearing and give a spin.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on January 09, 2021, 01:51:56 PM
Countrshaft cleaned and checked ready for assembly
(https://i.ibb.co/y051ygb/IMG-5576.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mJtwqhM)

replacement countershaft
(https://i.ibb.co/p3xYpwH/IMG-6037.jpg) (https://ibb.co/0fcH320)

Tope gear and circlip
(https://i.ibb.co/DzQ19Zg/IMG-6060.jpg) (https://ibb.co/4KpF8Hg)

(https://i.ibb.co/TW9VNxF/IMG-6064.jpg) (https://ibb.co/mNfLPVM)

Thrust washer and second gear
(https://i.ibb.co/RDx41CJ/IMG-6071.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6W3J24q)

(https://i.ibb.co/93zCxkK/IMG-6077.jpg) (https://ibb.co/fGBP3z6)

Thurst washer and lock washer which now fit since another replacement gear received
(https://i.ibb.co/X8DhJt1/IMG-6087.jpg) (https://ibb.co/bJFSdXT)

Third gear thrust washer and circlip

(https://i.ibb.co/S52Z6Ff/IMG-6090.jpg) (https://ibb.co/k5pPGNm)

(https://i.ibb.co/4tSnPt4/IMG-6119.jpg) (https://ibb.co/T20xm2P)

Forth gear
(https://i.ibb.co/VYjkSsZ/IMG-6121.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ZzLb80P)

Lower gear with bush inserted with the flange side sitting against the forth gear
(https://i.ibb.co/qWrKybm/IMG-6128.jpg) (https://ibb.co/HxH6FmG)

Needle bearing to top it off
(https://i.ibb.co/zhXtZsj/IMG-5752.jpg) (https://ibb.co/QFPxM9z)

Drop the countershaft in aligning the outer gear shifter forks to be positioned on forth and top gears
(https://i.ibb.co/Trx8H3q/IMG-6136.jpg) (https://ibb.co/6N7P4CJ)
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on January 09, 2021, 02:53:36 PM
The people who designed these (without computers) have my admiration.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Bryanj on January 09, 2021, 03:58:54 PM
As people used to say "Runs like a Swiss watch"
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on January 09, 2021, 04:34:39 PM
You have it correct but, push the first washer down and place the tab washer on top as, you have in your second picture. Then turn the first washer in the groove on the shaft and the tab washer will key in  ;)

With your first washer and the circlips you, must have these facing the correct way.

Just going off my memory here but IIRC the circlips are fitted so that the flat side goes against the gear and the curved side goes against the thrust washer, been quite a few years now since I split a gearbox and curiously the workshop manual makes no mention of the orientation of the circlips, which is odd as you'd expect Honda to have noted that for mechanics. In fact the gearbox section of the manual is virtually non-existent.

Just confirm my memory is correct Trig as it would not only confirm I'm not quite senile yet but help anyone else assembling a gearbox in the future.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Bryanj on January 09, 2021, 05:45:36 PM
I'm sure there is a bulletin on the US site about circlips but talking about 750
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on January 09, 2021, 08:26:12 PM
Thanks Oddjob - Have amended to add this sound advice
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on January 09, 2021, 08:26:32 PM
Parts cleaned and ready for assembly
(https://i.ibb.co/Ch6RNC2/IMG-5907.jpg) (https://ibb.co/wM753Gs)

Shaft through bottom half of case with spring and circlip
(https://i.ibb.co/HDv2hdc/IMG-5916.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FbvWHVQ)

gear
(https://i.ibb.co/SK17Nk2/IMG-5917.jpg) (https://ibb.co/y8MB0zD)


Thrust washer and large spring

(https://i.ibb.co/vcwHSpL/IMG-5926.jpg) (https://ibb.co/FhxKF28)

(https://i.ibb.co/N2bjtMB/IMG-5927.jpg) (https://ibb.co/PG0hFdH)


Kick starter ratchet and thrust washer then small spring
(https://i.ibb.co/hsLNGpz/IMG-5930.jpg) (https://ibb.co/v1VWN2n)

(https://i.ibb.co/RC9c8sW/IMG-5932.jpg) (https://ibb.co/zSrZdBw)

Ratchet guide plate on next and push on on to compress the spring. As you looking at the ratchet from above the arm of the ratchet guide need to point down and will lock into the case. A not tricky but will have to keep it there with one hand while doing the rest.
(https://i.ibb.co/zmwcT9F/IMG-5953.jpg) (https://ibb.co/yNJTcvp)

Finally add the washer and then attach the circlip to hold it all in.
(https://i.ibb.co/r7qCm4C/IMG-5964.jpg) (https://ibb.co/C14kzhk)
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Bryanj on January 09, 2021, 09:21:48 PM
Hopfully i have attached a Honda buttetin and it dont throw your work out the window mate
Title: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on January 09, 2021, 09:27:12 PM
Thanks Bryan.

I have some very closeup photos so will check all circlips but from memory think they I were all assembled as per the service bulletin


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on January 10, 2021, 03:25:28 AM
LMAO, that confused the f--k out of me. What's the sharp edge and what's the smooth edge?, why not just say, the flat edge and the beveled edge. Sharp edge must be the flat edge as if the bevel is against the thrust washer only the top of the bevel would contact it. Bloody Japanese, can't say anything straight, they have to speak in terminology that most people would struggle to decipher. 
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: taysidedragon on January 10, 2021, 01:08:19 PM
😁Just a translation issue. They probably swear at the English language and words that sound the same with different spellings or same word meaning different things.
It sure confuses the hell out of the USA! 🙃
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on January 10, 2021, 02:36:47 PM
Speaking of translation and presentation could someone please explain this to me so I know what is needed. For the clutch components No 12 is a spacer shown below.

(https://i.ibb.co/dcwHBpM/Screen-Shot-2021-01-10-at-14-27-51.png) (https://ibb.co/vB6M1dq)

But then how do I know what spacer I require for a 500K1 bike ?

(https://i.ibb.co/2NkxnMz/Screen-Shot-2021-01-10-at-14-33-10.png) (https://ibb.co/L5ZmkgT)

I get the remarks with the greater and lower than the engine serials but how does one know what thickness ?
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 10, 2021, 03:28:20 PM
You need to choose the correct thickness to give the correct clearance, as detailed in the Shop Manual.


[attachimg=1]
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Bryanj on January 10, 2021, 03:30:50 PM
Thicknessess of plates are all the same and in the manual and the different part number is square friction pieces not angular. the shims are not easy to get and you work out total play with no shim and a dti take off the clearance and fit shims to the resulting size, unless you are fitting new parts using the old one works
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: cantarauk on January 10, 2021, 03:43:15 PM
Thanks both.
Title: Re: Engine teardown and inspection
Post by: Oddjob on January 11, 2021, 12:12:21 AM
I had loads of those shims, I ordered what I thought was 2 of each and they ended up being in packets of 10s, so I had 20 of each in the end. They were in a box in the outside shed for years but of course as soon as you want them they go missing, still haven't found them yet. I'm tearing the shed down this year so maybe they'll show up then.
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