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Messages - K2-K6

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3181
Welcome to the forum.

Looks like you're well on the way with the bike already.

We just had someone on here emigrate to Australia,  so one in one out keeps the numbers tidy  ;D

3182
CB500/550 / Re: 550 K1 Carb Help please
« on: March 26, 2019, 07:54:38 PM »
I may have to go back and check figures, but I've got the 38 jet at 15.38% less area than the 40 jet.

So flow should be a noticeable difference to jetting.

When you adjust slow speed jetting and get no/little response in "normal " screwdriver adjustment range, then it is suggesting that the engine is "asking" for a different jet size to bring it within normal operating settings.

It does look like it needs the smaller jets.

3183
CB350/400 / Neat 400 based racer.
« on: March 25, 2019, 04:16:59 PM »
Thought this was a good looking race adaption of 400,  more practical than stylised with very neat details.

[ Guests cannot view attachments ]


https://www.kijiji.it/annunci/moto-e-scooter/como-annunci-erba/honda-cb-400-four-stile-samoto-roma-anno-1974/113033174

More details on the link above.

3184
CB350/400 / Re: Fuel Tank Cleaning
« on: March 24, 2019, 07:40:47 PM »
Thought Jesus was more of a fish, wine and bread type of chap  :) doubt if he studied metallurgy  ;D

3185
CB350/400 / Re: Fuel Tank Cleaning
« on: March 24, 2019, 05:49:40 PM »
I understand it as kevski states.

The steel tank that has rust is already compromised,  or beginning to be, dependant on how much rust.

From a metallurgy point of view,  steel sheet has been rolled to get it's thickness to required dimension for component pressing.  This makes it effectively close to forged and maintains a compression of the surface that is a little resistant to corrosion because of its physical structure. It's this property that fuel tanks have taken advantage of for years,  so they've never really been treated during production.

If you've left a piece of sheet that's been cut in damp conditions,  the cut edges will very quickly corrode and general surface take much longer.

Once you cut, grind,  corrode etc you loose this refined surface compression,  making it far more likely to flash corrode as you further prepare it.

3186
New Member Introductions / Re: Newbie from Somerset with 750 K3
« on: March 24, 2019, 09:28:19 AM »
Welcome to the forum, bike looks good in photos.

We need a few more 750s to balance all the 400s on here  :)

3187
Project Board / Re: "Homemade" CB400f rearsets
« on: March 23, 2019, 09:56:31 PM »
Welcome to the forum.

Nice machineshop there, I like the high speed hand drive on the rotary table  :)


3188
CB350/400 / Re: Head + Rocker cover torques...
« on: March 23, 2019, 02:37:27 PM »
That is good news Bryan, hopefully after the "rebore" you'll get no more trouble  :)

The technical points:- as you say Dave,  the bolts are a real problem if corrosion gets into the threads.  The zinc plating is the part that protects them originally,  but as we all know when exposed to salty winter roads it will strip that off over time.  The zinc is sacrificial so that when you see them going white in early stages of their life you are observing that process in operation. Once gone though,  it starts on the components to give that siezed stage that can destroy the parts. Using something to avoid this is sensible as you do with coppaslip,  just have to be aware of the effect on measured torque.

Bryan picked up on scale with things like this.  it seems to trip up the unaware in not acknowledging the very small scale that is involved, many just don't believe that they are working with such small numbers, for both tolerancing and torque settings.

To elaborate on the cam cover bolts Simon, yes it should be true that if never over torqued they should be ok for most eventuality.  They have more to them than is generally appreciated I believe. I mentioned earlier about the torque on the threads,  what Honda have done on these though is to design in a wide head/flange on the bolt. The increase in the surface area is the principal element in how the torque is built up.  If tightened correctly it'll reach the measured specification just from this surface and not overstress the thread area. As mentioned,  the joint face is not compressed like a gasket,  so once the two metal components come into contact that is job done,  the bolts just need the torque setting to stop them backing out during use.
It's one of those assemblies in which some very subtle elements combine to give an integrated whole component.

Retightening head bolts,  it's one of those things that I don't think can be answered definitely as to method,  unless the original manufacture gives a prescribed routine.
Faced with trying to retourque them means it's already compromised the gasket to some extent,  else it would not be required. Agree with Bryan in releasing first then tightening again to get a correct reading.
I'd do them one at a time so that the head casting is not released and in the original pattern of engine build if doing them all.
It's one of those things that you'd hope to get it to seal,  but may have to accept it needs replacement if not effective.

That K-series engine Dave, as far as I remember they have bolts that go right through the whole assembly and hold crank main,  pass through block,  then the head to squeeze the whole assembly. It's quite a clever design,  but like many things considered in that way, sometimes mis-understood.
They are definitely "stretched" bolts, in that they are pulled during tightening past elasticity into primary yeald to set them correctly and need replacing if taken apart.
Great irony of those engines is it's not this construction that causes the fault in the first place,  but often gets blamed. The overheating usually originates with failure of water system sealing to the inlet manifold as I understand it. They run a fairly small coolant volume and will readily overheat because of this problem,  by which time the head gasket is compromised.



3189
Other Bikes / Re: Never had this happen before....
« on: March 21, 2019, 09:40:26 PM »
I'd go with your winter and salty road theory,  doubt if it came from internal effects.

Some of the canister filters now currently use very thin metal (you can squash some of them with just your hands) especially after being bashed out of a flat plate to form them.  Guess that ordinarily they don't have to have extensive durability to function between oil changes.

3190
CB350/400 / Re: Head + Rocker cover torques...
« on: March 21, 2019, 11:54:32 AM »
Reference the bolt/fixing integrity for rocker cover.

From an engineering point of view I don't feel that they wear out, as such.  It's the case that the steel bolts can very easily exceed any torque aluminium castings can tolerate.

In tightening them,  if the torque used succeeds in fracturing the threads ( in essence detaching the thread form from its root anchored to the surrounding metal)  then they are scrap from that point onwards. It doesn't matter if it's the first, or many times its been used.

That joint is unusual in how it's viewed from a technical point.  Using its two faces to provide the tolerancing for cam bearings,  it only has to be tightened until the surfaces touch by which time the o-ring shouod have long been compressed into its sealing function. The remainder of tightening after this point is just to provide a "shakeproof" torque on the bolts. It really doesn't need much to do this.

There's anther factor that's not really considered,  which is lubrication of the bolts and the affect it has on torque rating. I think Bryan made this observation about whether to lubricate the thread's some years ago (that was in relation to head studs, that I remember).
As I understand it,  thread torque used is given for a dry thread UNLESS a lubricant is specified.
If you add a lubricant to this equation it requires you to use LESS measured torque to achieve the same clamping force, but the load on each thread goes upwards toward failure. Torque is just measuring friction and has to be qualified for the friction in place.  Change the friction,  and you change the measurement of torque as it's rotary and specifically doesn't measure the clamping force.

It follows that if you use oil and maximum torque specified,  then you'll come closer to the materials capabilites to resist failure.

The general interpretation would be to reduce torque by 10 to 15% indicated by figures I can find. 

3191
CB750 / Re: Exhaust looks good
« on: March 18, 2019, 07:11:08 PM »
The silencers and collectors particularly,  rot from the inside after being used.

You'll need to find some way of mitigation for them internally to make sure of best preservation.

Maybe something like two stroke oil sloshed around them to coat the structure.

3192
Project Board / Re: 1967 CB450K0 Black Bomber Rebuild - By Royhall
« on: March 16, 2019, 10:00:46 AM »
Very good rebuild thread Roy.

Impressed with how flat and perfectly sealed that original head gasket face was in the first picture above.

3193
Anorak's Corner / Re: Primary School Science
« on: March 15, 2019, 08:20:48 PM »
Warmed up the adenoids and dug my anorak out  ;D

Do you mean corrosion? Or rust as in ferrous orange flaky stuff?

Thought you'd get rust more with steel and wrought iron in salty water most easily.

The others may discolour to some extent.

Two (copper and steel)  for example in lemon juice may plate one onto the other.

Copper goes green in rainwater on roofs,  but may take a while to show in experiment.

3194
CB750 / Re: Front brake pads
« on: March 14, 2019, 09:48:11 PM »
I feel the current (post asbestos)  organic pads have a very soft bite and sensitivity to them.  Even in cars they seem to need higher brake line pressure to get them generating significant force.

Honda seemed to use a very conservative leverage ratio on these systems, so quite hard to generate high line pressure. Jokingly I've considered these to be an early anti-lock brake system as you'd need hands like a bricky to put enough force into them. :)

The disc is easily big enough to make the torque required,  just that you can't exert sufficient pressure through the leverage ratio they use.

Contemporary systems to me seemed to have the Yamaha RD much closer to current systems, with much lower lever pressure able to generate quite potent braking.
The mastercylinder from later 400E, the one with floating calipers and single piston may offer an interesting combination with the Honda caliper on the 750 to test that theory.  It may give you an indication of what the disc and caliper could do.  Shame they are the square type otherwise would look less out of place.

3195
Other Bikes / Re: Pick this up in the morning
« on: March 14, 2019, 08:29:37 PM »
I thought along the same lines as johnwebley regarding the kickstart pawl mechanism.

If you pull it backward until it stops,  then try to push the kickstart down, you'll feel if it's holding it.

Gearbox problems can be risky as if they sieze they usually have the ability to lock the rear wheel, and you can't correct it by pulling the clutch.  Worth investigating to make sure it's safe to ride.

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