Author Topic: 1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration  (Read 40979 times)

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #30 on: December 04, 2017, 02:04:19 PM »
I was wondering if the 'gut's of  the 120 MPH (extreme RHS in my 1st pic ) metal body gauge could be transplanted into the plastic body one. Need to ask kent400 he's bound to know. Up to you Dave
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #31 on: December 04, 2017, 02:32:29 PM »
I don't see what we'd gain from that, I've found that the internal gearing in the speedo is the same for all Honda speedos from that era, they tweak for differnet wheel sizes at the speedo drive on the axles, which aren't interchangable.

Chances of me going much over the ton on a CL aren't high, if anyone tells me 'I think you'll find that's not the correct speedo graduations' I'll tell them to get a life, so no the 350 one will be fine Ash.

Edit: That said if you sell me the plastic one, I'd still have the nearly new later type alloy bodied one that's on the bike now, so if they would swap easily once I'd prised the crimp off (not that easy to do without butchery I know), I could do it myself - so paging kent400 - in fact I'll send him a pm.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 04:22:59 PM by MrDavo »
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline jensen

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #32 on: December 04, 2017, 05:07:41 PM »
Hi,

Nice build !

One word of advice regarding the crank of these bikes.

Please do yourself a favour and bring the crank to a specialist and ask him / her to remove the left and right oil way plugs, clean the oil ways behind the plugs, and put new ones in.
This is well worth the money, because good cranks are very hard to find. I can explain why you should do this, but that takes a while, but if you want me to explain, I will.

Jensen
« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 05:10:28 PM by jensen »
assembly of Japanese motorcycles requires great peace of mind (Pirsig)

Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #33 on: December 04, 2017, 05:30:44 PM »
Eww! Unexpected delay alert!

I've been following your thread on twins.net, so I do appreciate that you know what you are talking about. Can you give me the short tldr version of why I have to do this instead? :)

Can anyone suggest a UK specialist? If its one I can drive to from Manchester even better. They'll have to get the rotor off too, because I couldn't, but didn't have to until now.

I was going to start putting the bottom end back together, but hey, I can polish cases and start on the head.
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline jensen

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #34 on: December 04, 2017, 06:11:10 PM »
The reason is that the inner crank wall oil guide has a larger diameter then the spinner filter.

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The centrifugal force on a floating particle is depending on the circular speed of the filter and the weight of the particle and the distance of the particle from the center.

Fc= m*w2*r

Fc is the centrifugal force
m is the mass of the floating particle
w is the circular speed
r is the radius or distance from particle toward the centre

Since every other variable in this formula is the same (w and m), the Fc working on a given particle will be higher because of the larger diameter, which is the r in the formula above. So, if any particle is not caught by the spinner filter it will be caught by the crank walls due to this effect.

Since the oil is pushed from the crank walls into the oilway's to the big-ends, the particles will block this oil way slowly. By removing the plugs, you are able to clean the oil ways. The crank walls can be cleaned from the out-side.

In the picture below, I flush the oil ways with very aggressive fluids for weeks, but getting the plugs out is the best solution. The nasty stuff in the bottle is what's came out my CB450 K0 crankshaft, having just 1500 miles on the odo (and nothing on the bike says that this isn't the real mileage).

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« Last Edit: December 04, 2017, 06:23:01 PM by jensen »
assembly of Japanese motorcycles requires great peace of mind (Pirsig)

Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #35 on: December 05, 2017, 12:32:37 PM »
If I've got this right - Tldr: The crap is flung as far out as possible, the crank is bigger than the centrifugal filter, ergo that is where the crap ends up.

I wondered about doing it myself, but then I read forum posts where people were having nightmares trying to drill out and then retrieve hardened balls from the oilways, sod that for a lark.

These guys have a lot of experience making old Honda engines go well:

http://www.d-mengineering.co.uk/

I emailed them last night and was surprised to get a reply around midnight:

Quote
Hello,
Yes we can do that for you. We charge £125.00 + VAT to remove plugs, clean sludge traps, remove both end flywheels, clean and inspect big end cages + crank pins + rods, and rebuild. The first step is to check the pins. rods + cages. If there is a problem at this point we would let you know.
Is your a 4 speed motor?
There will be return P &P also.
I hope this helps,

Sounds like a deal, compared to the cost of it eating a crank, decent ones do look hard to come by, plus after my experiences with both the Harley and the CB750 I'm done with sudden unplanned crank changes, so I'm now looking for a suitable box. Thanks for your input Jensen, without it I would just have got on with the rebuild not knowing I had another ticking time bomb waiting to go off.

On another topic, what do we think for the frame, rattle can satin black (over undercoat) or powder coat?

Honda seem to have given it a typical coat of black paint, no visible primer, looks great in the showroom, not so great 50 years down the line.
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #36 on: December 05, 2017, 01:23:57 PM »
Hi ...  is yours a 4-speed or 5-speed Dave ? ..I assumed  it was a five speed, which has a totally different (more conventional) crank to the K0 'Bomber' ones that I have. Great heads-up anyway Jensen as I have four of those early (K0) cranks to sort out.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 01:30:40 PM by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #37 on: December 05, 2017, 01:48:09 PM »
It’s a 5 speed, CL450 K2, I assume the heads up re sludge traps still applies.
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2017, 02:50:09 PM »
It’s a 5 speed, CL450 K2, I assume the heads up re sludge traps still applies.

Not sure ..one for Jensen ! His diagrams refer to the K0 4-speed crank I think.

Here is a pressed apart K0 for comparison (not mine !)

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« Last Edit: December 05, 2017, 03:33:20 PM by AshimotoK0 »
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2017, 04:24:37 PM »
Hmm, hard to say what's different with my crank, as its all in one piece at the moment. I'm guessing clean traps beat dirty ones whatever the model, there was a lot of black slime in the bottom of the cases, though nothing in the actual filter. Paging Jensen....

Meanwhile, as I was in the garage I just took these





I know what you're thinking 'But Dave, you've owned this bike for three weeks now, is that all you've done?'

« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 04:44:32 PM by MrDavo »
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2017, 04:28:33 PM »
Look at the weird main bearings on the K0 crank pic Dave !
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline MrDavo

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #41 on: December 05, 2017, 04:41:00 PM »
Eww, that is wierd!, I just have a massive pair of ball.....races.
1969 Honda CL450 'Scrambler'
1974 Kawasaki Z1A
2005 Harley XL1200R Sportster
1985 Porsche 911 3.2 Carrera Sport
1978 VW Bay Window camper van

Offline AshimotoK0

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #42 on: December 05, 2017, 05:07:45 PM »
Eww, that is wierd!, I just have a massive pair of ball.....races.

Your crank is similar to a CB350K crank Dave.
“Alright friends, you have seen the heavy groups, now you will see morning maniac music. Believe me, yeah. It’s a new dawn.” Grace Slick, Woodstock '69 .. In the year of the Sandcast.

Offline jensen

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #43 on: December 05, 2017, 05:14:04 PM »
Sludge trap is also at the 5-speed crank, there's not much difference. I would only let them bore out the plugs and let them clean the oil ways, the rest only when necccary, but also depends what your plans for the bike are. The 5 speed cranks are difficult to press together straight, so if not necessary don't go for it.
assembly of Japanese motorcycles requires great peace of mind (Pirsig)

Offline K2-K6

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Re: 1969 CL450 Restoration
« Reply #44 on: December 05, 2017, 07:28:23 PM »
A left field view of cleaning oilways perhaps but, I've  worked for a long time on one particular type of car engine which,  certainly prior to synthetic oils,  makes alot of sludge and baked oil deposits, to the extent when you get a very poorly looked after one,  you can dig out with a spoon the baked oil from the cylinder heads.

One of the only things I found would really clean them with ease was steam. That was on a more industrial scale, but is it possible to backflow through oil ways with a domestic steam cleaner?  Prior to preserving with new oil to avoid corrosion.

It's also used routinely for cleaning glass and apparatus in chemical laboratories,  including tarred deposits.

It may avoid dismantling possibly,  but I'm not familiar enough with layout to see if this is possible.

 

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