SOHC.co.uk Forums > CB500/550

Plug caps and plugs

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K2-K6:
"Here is my personal view on the matter. The combustion engine is but the next step in locomotion right after the steam engine (and it is about time we kick it into oblivion  ;)). Where on a steam engine the stoker had to add coal to an already burning fire, say at every telegraph pole, the combustion engine begins with putting the mixture in and then throws a match at it. I know, I know, all put very simple, but just for the perspective.
Now our way of interpreting phenomena has also been evaluated and thanks to progress in digitization, we are now used to pin point accuracy. However to project such precision on a process as primitive as a fire place like in the combustion chambre, doesn't touch either side (if that's the correct expression). Every combustion cycle differs from its predecessor and its successor and the margins are wide."

With that statement I can see why you form such a limited view of combustion effects. In the contrary, it's a very demanding and precise science supported by extensive (all motor manufacturing over many years) that's concise, repeatable and highly accurate form of motive power. Because you've not seen fit to study this area doesn't make it in any way primative, but can obviously lead to innacurrate statement on your part. How can you make judgment from such an I'll informed overview ?

"Personally I have no reason to doubt the advice given by Honda France and Honda The Netherlands and I find the fact that 10kΩ caps are not even available anymore, telling. From school I vaguely remember something about Rc time, but I won't even look it up. Don't get me wrong. I have always been open to a possible effect on spark duration, but..."

Surely a quasi-religious view, that which follows a doctrine of which you cannot be certain of the origin, or supporting reasoning to make convincing technical statements which can withstand valid scrutiny. 

Factually, Honda (by default their combustion engineers) make statements in manuals that see absolutely that both resisted plugs and caps can be used, without reservation or need to set that system in any way differently. Where the regional distributor gets information that contradicts that research from would be a key point in discussion, both it's reasoning and origin. If they cannot do that, then it doesn't even clear a very low level of factual scrutiny that was mentioned earlier in thread about proving right or wrong.

As it is, Honda (Japan and through their published manuals) say theres no reason not to. In other words it has no detrimental effect. Proof of the opposite is necessary to challenge that view. Does that exist from Honda?  and with a traceable route to their combustion engineers.

Perceived advantages are a seperate topic if they exist. These two direction are not in the same reasoning and discussion related to the simple question of "can we use both items with R status together on these system" Honda position is yes you can, and without detrimental effect or need to adapt.

deltarider:

--- Quote from: K2-K6 on May 31, 2022, 01:36:57 PM ---"Here is my personal view on the matter. The combustion engine is but the next step in locomotion right after the steam engine (and it is about time we kick it into oblivion  ;)). Where on a steam engine the stoker had to add coal to an already burning fire, say at every telegraph pole, the combustion engine begins with putting the mixture in and then throws a match at it. I know, I know, all put very simple, but just for the perspective.
Now our way of interpreting phenomena has also been evaluated and thanks to progress in digitization, we are now used to pin point accuracy. However to project such precision on a process as primitive as a fire place like in the combustion chambre, doesn't touch either side (if that's the correct expression). Every combustion cycle differs from its predecessor and its successor and the margins are wide."

With that statement I can see why you form such a limited view of combustion effects. In the contrary, it's a very demanding and precise science supported by extensive (all motor manufacturing over many years) that's concise, repeatable and highly accurate form of motive power. Because you've not seen fit to study this area doesn't make it in any way primative, but can obviously lead to innacurrate statement on your part. How can you make judgment from such an I'll informed overview ?
--- End quote ---
Easy enough. Just talk to the mechanics on the floor, that have opened multiple engines to find excessive carbon build up. There's your "very demanding and precise science supported by extensive (all motor manufacturing over many years) that's concise, repeatable and highly accurate form of motive power. " We're talking engines from the early 70s with an efficiency of 20% at best. For the remaining 80% they're stoves. Furthermore... you can study lightning till you're blue in the face, but every stroke will be different and cannot be repeated with identical results. Visit Teylers Museum in Haarlem. They have the biggest Wimshurst machine in the world. That spectacle will enlighten you no end. BTW, what goes on in lightning is still subject of studies. One of the more recent findings is that small particles from outer space play a crucial role.
 
--- Quote from: K2-K6 on May 31, 2022, 01:36:57 PM ---"Personally I have no reason to doubt the advice given by Honda France and Honda The Netherlands and I find the fact that 10kΩ caps are not even available anymore, telling. From school I vaguely remember something about Rc time, but I won't even look it up. Don't get me wrong. I have always been open to a possible effect on spark duration, but..."

Surely a quasi-religious view, that which follows a doctrine of which you cannot be certain of the origin, or supporting reasoning to make convincing technical statements which can withstand valid scrutiny. 
--- End quote ---
Are you seriously suggesting I should ignore the advice by Honda's technical chiefs in France and The Netherlands, the guys that instruct dealers mechanics on a yearly base? And what is quasi-religious? Something is religious or not.

--- Quote from: K2-K6 on May 31, 2022, 01:36:57 PM ---Factually, Honda (by default their combustion engineers) make statements in manuals that see absolutely that both resisted plugs and caps can be used, without reservation or need to set that system in any way differently. Where the regional distributor gets information that contradicts that research from would be a key point in discussion, both it's reasoning and origin. If they cannot do that, then it doesn't even clear a very low level of factual scrutiny that was mentioned earlier in thread about proving right or wrong.

As it is, Honda (Japan and through their published manuals) say theres no reason not to. In other words it has no detrimental effect. Proof of the opposite is necessary to challenge that view. Does that exist from Honda?  and with a traceable route to their combustion engineers.
--- End quote ---
I never stated you can't have both resistor plugs and caps. Have you ever wondered why it's only the Canadian market that has both? As a matter of fact, I have been the first to point at that. Why rule out it's just about local legislation? And if not, why were only the Canadians awarded the 'benefits' of extra resistance?
Here's a question. As soon as I have overcome my laziness, I'll swap my Dyna coils for the OEM I still have. The Dyna required resistor plugs as the Dynatek caps have none. The OEM do not. They have resistor caps fitted. Now I'm lazy, so I will keep the R plugs.
Please predict me what noticable effects I can expect.

Sesman:
Quasi religion refers to recently created subcultures or organizations that, while not overtly religious, incorporate religious or spiritual elements into their belief systems.

I’ll never mention plugs and caps again….😢

K2-K6:

--- Quote from: Sesman on May 31, 2022, 04:53:47 PM ---Quasi religion refers to recently created subcultures or organizations that, while not overtly religious, incorporate religious or spiritual elements into their belief systems.

I’ll never mention plugs and caps again….😢

--- End quote ---

 ;D ;D ;D

I was riffing on delta's observation of becoming a religious type offering without competent reason behind it.

This site essentially ok with debate about even small details and can usually flush out valid evidence to convince why something is stated as such.

Without good evidence it does become a bit a doctrine though, which doesn't serve anyone well.

Your observation about university method should bring a logical and complete answer to the topic though, interesting and a little fun along the way too.

K2-K6:
"Are you seriously suggesting I should ignore the advice by Honda's technical chiefs in France and The Netherlands, the guys that instruct dealers mechanics on a yearly base?"

Your view of their advice is just a consideration for you to make, I'd not offer advice.

But using hierarchy of distributor staff to bring a smokescreen to the topic serves no purpose.  That's because you have no confirmation of the reason behind it.

As an example it could simply be commercially driven aspect that is agrred between those country representatives and ongoing dealer businesses.  To remove one stock line from demand etc is certainly a consideration in cost savings for those businesses chain participants.  Of course 10 spec caps can't be needed as you can arrange to make 5+5 if that's the advice to fit. You don't know the answer to this, that's not confirmation of technical direction in any certainty. 

The Canadian market would seem to force that specification through legislation (which Honda facilitate through their testing and printed advice) which is not required by law in European markets, making no need to stock line duplicated examples for dealer workshop.  Just much easier to run simple system if law enforcement is not a consideration.

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