Pyramid Parts Tapered head bearings.

[ST1100]

I think tapers are much better than the old ball bearing solution, they stiffen up the front due to the bigger contact area of the rollers versus the ball bearing. They also last far longer and require less maintenance.

Out of interest: how do you determine the then different/new torque setting for the top cap? Spring-scale?

[AshimotoK0]

Iirc Ash you need a spacer approx 2mm under the bottom race. If you use the seal that now comes with the kit these days you may need a slightly thinner washer.

Personally I think tapers are much better than the old ball bearing solution, they stiffen up the front due to the bigger contact area of the rollers versus the ball bearing. They also last far longer and require less maintenance.

The issue with the top race protruding isn’t really an issue imo, the top race fits inside it and the profile when it’s assembled isn’t that much different than ball bearings. The top locking nut is also dished so it should protect it from crud etc from getting in.

Most headstock bearings these days are tapered, if they weren’t better Honda wouldn’t fit them, which is something to consider.

Based on what Ken is telling me plus hate buying stuff and having to trash it ...I think I (and Ben Powell) will persevere.
Good point Murf (sorry don't know your Christian name  )  on the seating of the top race and I will make a thin shim to correct this once I have measured the parts.

[Laverda Dave]

AshimotoKO The photo of the nuts showing the raised ridges where the two parts, nut and domed cover are fused together is interesting. Not just for the reasons you have posted them but also because the raised ridges are another reason I did not use the pyramid bearing kit. 
 
The top of the original cup and cone bearing sits perfectly on the flat area within the raised ridges, whereas the taper bearing is wider meaning that the ridges sat on top of the bearing edge and the pressure to the bearing from the nut was just being applied by the ridges. I felt this was totally wrong.

Yes I could have made up a washer to fit that would have transferred the forces into the flat area of the nut but thought why should I mess around trying to make something that is not right fit. Especially when I already have something that fits perfectly and designed for the bike.

I felt that the pyramid kit was probably designed on a computer without anyone ever trying it out on an actual bike.
BTW I have nothing against computers and like tapered bearings as head bearings, just hasn’t worked for me this time. 😁

Intresting point you raise Murf.  When I was having trouble fitting mine I called Pyramid and spoke with the owner. He told me they had a similar issue with a kit they supplied for a Kawasaki (I think it was a KH) and they solved that by using a half bearing although I have no idea what a half bearing is having never seen one. The bearing would sit lower in the housing and would allow the fitting of the top nut. He asked me to send photos with measurements detailing the problems I was having with mine to enable him to work on a solution. I never heard anything back but I notice from just looking at their website they are still selling the same kit for the 400/4, very odd considering it doesn't fit properly (on my bike anyway). There isn't much of a description of the kit either only that it is a full set of bearings with grease and seals, nothing about any spacers being required (or supplied).

[Oddjob]

I think tapers are much better than the old ball bearing solution, they stiffen up the front due to the bigger contact area of the rollers versus the ball bearing. They also last far longer and require less maintenance.

Out of interest: how do you determine the then different/new torque setting for the top cap? Spring-scale?

Yes, I use a spring scale. I find it more accurate than a torque setting.

[ST1100]

Yes, I use a spring scale. I find it more accurate than a torque setting.

Would the 1.5~2.0kg/3.3~4.4lbs (given in Honda manual for larger bikes like the ST1100) also apply on the lighter 400/500/550?

Since I (yet) have never found a Pyramid (or any) kit that would actually fit the motorcycle at hand, I'm still biased... 
No fitting seals, shims/washers provided either too thick or too thin, bearing races too tall, not enough thread left for stem nut, top bridge height ends up wrong, neither steering lock nor limiters would engage properly... 
OEM set OTOH is a no-brainer; installs right out the box, pack with marine lube, torque nut to the specs given in the manual, swivel, recheck, done... quick, precise, no headache... and most important: no 'headshake' when out on the road...

[Orcade-Ian]

I'm faced with a similar dilemma on my 350 Forza Maxi Scoot.  It's coming up to 3 years old next May and therefore will need an MOT.  Lots of owners on that Forum have had steering head bearing failures at MOT time - a definite 'notch' at the dead ahead position but no slackness.  Checking a manual download (in the Thai language!) the very good diagrams show a glorified bicycle set-up with caged balls top and bottom and NO TOP YOKE!  Stanchions finish at the bottom yoke which must put an excessive load on the bottom bearing which is not 'shared' with the top bearing conventionally.  My bike is just coming up to 9000 miles, others have been far less and yes, mine too is notchy - not dangerous but I don't even want an advisory on the MOT history.  It's a time consuming job to replace the bearings - almost all of the plastic has to be removed, a process fraught with disaster at the hands of any ham-fisted 'technicians', so I will do the job myself over winter.  Honda claim 'no knowledge' of a problem and suggest 'wear and tear'. I certainly aint putting Honda bearings back in for them to fail so quickly.  So I will be sourcing taper rollers, hopefully from Timken.  I'm fortunate having machining facilities if needed for collars, spacers, shields etc, providing I can find bearings of the right size - I'll only know that when I strip it.

Ian

[Oddjob]

As there are no spring balance figures for the early sohc bikes I used those figures as a guideline. I found around 3.5 to be about right. I must say though that my kit was bought around 1980 and they fitted just fine, I tried without the spacer under the bottom race first but the steering locks fouled on the frame. There were 3 different sized spacers iirc and I fitted the middle of the 3. It’s apart right now as the frame got powder coated but I can’t tell you any sizes as yet until I get some mobility back due to my recent health problems.

I personally don’t rate the Pyramid kit, however it does seem to be one of the few left on the market, shame it doesn’t fit as well as it should. My tapers have done around 60-70k and they are still perfect so they’ll be going back in for another session soon.

[taysidedragon]

I'm faced with a similar dilemma on my 350 Forza Maxi Scoot.  It's coming up to 3 years old next May and therefore will need an MOT.  Lots of owners on that Forum have had steering head bearing failures at MOT time - a definite 'notch' at the dead ahead position but no slackness.  Checking a manual download (in the Thai language!) the very good diagrams show a glorified bicycle set-up with caged balls top and bottom and NO TOP YOKE!  Stanchions finish at the bottom yoke which must put an excessive load on the bottom bearing which is not 'shared' with the top bearing conventionally.  My bike is just coming up to 9000 miles, others have been far less and yes, mine too is notchy - not dangerous but I don't even want an advisory on the MOT history.  It's a time consuming job to replace the bearings - almost all of the plastic has to be removed, a process fraught with disaster at the hands of any ham-fisted 'technicians', so I will do the job myself over winter.  Honda claim 'no knowledge' of a problem and suggest 'wear and tear'. I certainly aint putting Honda bearings back in for them to fail so quickly.  So I will be sourcing taper rollers, hopefully from Timken.  I'm fortunate having machining facilities if needed for collars, spacers, shields etc, providing I can find bearings of the right size - I'll only know that when I strip it.

Ian

A lot of manufacturers don't put much grease on the bearings when in the factory so they're never going to last very long. 😖

[ST1100]

As there are no spring balance figures for the early sohc bikes I used those figures as a guideline. I found around 3.5 to be about right.

Just had a peek into the "Honda Common Service Manual" (always interesting read ):

- loose ball bearing type:
tighten bearing adjustment nut to 15Nm/10ft-lb, then back off 1/8th turn, check free movement
- retainer type bearings:
tighten bearing adjustment nut to 25Nm/18ft-lb, swivel, recheck for 25Nm/18ft-lb
- tapered bearing type:
tighten bearing adjustment nut to 11Nm/8ft-lb, swivel, recheck for 11Nm/18ft-lb

This should give a good baseline while installing; note that the actual figures might change with model, refer to the specific manual.
The spring scale load reading/check varies with the radius (distance between steering stem center and fork tube), so above preload divided by distance = desired measurement.
i.e. 15Nm/10ft-lb : 7.5cm/3inch -> should read 2kg/4.5lb on the spring scale.

hope this helps someone

[K2-K6]

Yes, I use a spring scale. I find it more accurate than a torque setting.

Would the 1.5~2.0kg/3.3~4.4lbs (given in Honda manual for larger bikes like the ST1100) also apply on the lighter 400/500/550?

Since I (yet) have never found a Pyramid (or any) kit that would actually fit the motorcycle at hand, I'm still biased... 
No fitting seals, shims/washers provided either too thick or too thin, bearing races too tall, not enough thread left for stem nut, top bridge height ends up wrong, neither steering lock nor limiters would engage properly... 
OEM set OTOH is a no-brainer; installs right out the box, pack with marine lube, torque nut to the specs given in the manual, swivel, recheck, done... quick, precise, no headache... and most important: no 'headshake' when out on the road...

I've mentioned before about more fitted kits.

Contemporary purchase, we used Dave Degens at his shop over in Putney as he sold them in kits.

From memory, he had one of the tracks ground to facilitate this fitting within the original schema/dimensions of the Honda factory fit. Basically, decent taper rollers don't fit within the space of ball type bearings.
Tapers will by far out perform the ball track type generally, especially given some of the cheapest materials used(not necessarily honda) across motorcycle manufacturing.

The bit I'm not sure of is exactly what he altered. I recall one component, and possibly thats the top fit outer track for depth. They could have just been put in lines on a mag base carriage of a surface grinding machine to get a easy pass over them and reduce that dimension. They don't necessarily need dome of those dimensions fully in 0lace for this application as they would in something like a wheel bearing fitment.

Also at that time, we made any spacers we wanted, being apprentice in engineering. 

I've still got some dimensions and drawing for required spacer my friend made for the 750F2 he has from that time period 

Currently, I've moved to CV molybdenum black grease for installation like this as there's no requirement for speed/drag consideration as exists in wheel bearing use, for example.

Although we do use the same in son's bicycle wheel bearings to live with the torque he can blast through them, still snaps spokes with regularity though, with legs that would do service powering a Sir Nigel Gresley locomotive