DOH! Ignition point system memory failure

[Johnny4428]

Yes your probably right Ted, the ones I replaced them with was old one off my redundant 550k3 plate but they certainly had more of a heel on them.

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

At great expense I purchased an all steel T shaped handled JIS driver from Fred Palin's the local dealer. You could hammer the end into the screws and apply great force via the T handle. I had to drill the heads off 3 or four of the screws.

Palins, a blast from the past Ted. There was Bob Minions too. Still there last time I knew but Palins not the case. Also Samways, who again were still about but more bicycles stuff and smaller scooters? Samways for the highways was the slogan as I recall...

More local to me at the time in Duffield was Bill Lomas in Milford. Ex racer and his son Mick was no slouch on a bike.

Yes Bob Minions have moved a couple of times iirc. My NSU Quickly was from Minions when they were on Park Street, they are currently on London Road now RE & RA dealers not sure if it's still owned by the family though as Wilf & Lionel Minion must have died decades ago. I bought a fairing for my Ariel Arrow from Barrie Rodgers that were opposite where Minions are now.

Samways ditched motorcycle sales when they moved from the corner of Mill street to Ashbourne Road selling only pedal cycles once the old stock was gone -  closed a few years ago as they could not complete with Internet Prices.

Bill Lomas - did they also have a branch in Clay Cross or Chesterfields way?

Update - Company records show it is still owned by the Minion family!

[Rozabikes Tim]

Yes but that was his son Mick's project in Clay Cross. I may be wrong but I think they use the unit now for some classic bike museum....

I only ever knew Minions to be on the road south of Derby near DRI as was. There was a dealer diagonally opposite, think they were Yam and Kwak specialists! Name escapes me but think faint a recollection they are still trading in Nottingham? 

[Rozabikes Tim]

Yes but that was his son Mick's project in Clay Cross. I may be wrong but I think they use the unit now for some classic bike museum....

I only ever knew Minions to be on the road south of Derby near DRI as was. There was a dealer diagonally opposite, think they were Yam and Kwak specialists! Name escapes me but think faint a recollection they are still trading in Nottingham?

Remembered - That dealer was Roy Pidcock.

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

I think Granby's took the site when Pidcocks closed that branch.
Granbys Ilkeston off Bath Street was where I bought my XJ900 back in 1995.

I think Granbys Ilkeston closed before Covid time around 2016..https://britishdealernews.co.uk/news/uk/granby-closes-its-doors/

[Rozabikes Tim]

Yep that makes sense!

[Mikep328]

Walked back to the garage and re-did everything.  I ended up reducing the point gap to the minimum and now there is sufficient timing adjustment/additional movement available.

[Mikep328]

An interesting outcome with the points system is that the bike starts much quicker from cold than it did with the E-ignition.  The same is true when the engine is warm.  In that situation, when I push the starter button, the engine is running literally before I can release the button.

I have no idea why this should be the case - timing was the same with both systems. 

On the down-side, contrary to my expectations, the points system seems to require more power than the E system.  I base that observation on the charging voltage/RPM.  With the E-ignition and the LED running light (parking light) on, the no-discharge point (12.6v) was 1500 RPM per the bike's tach.  With the points it's around 1700.  I expected the opposite.  Shows you what I know! 

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

Whose Electronic Ignition system was it Mike?

My experience is that more cranking is needed with retarded ignition. Over advanced often results in a stall immediately after starting. Sounds like you have it spot on.

[Mikep328]

The E-ignition is the DSS system, installed by the previous owner.

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

I have no experience with the DS system, my 400 has the Dynatec full system (including coils) that is known to be power hungry.
I have an unbranded E-sytem that Bryan supplied me with for the 500 but to date I am using the points system until it's run in.
The DS system has some circuitry on the mounting plate looking at the listing whereas both my systems have neither - just what look like points type mounted sensors both being adjustable?
The visual difference between the Dynatec & the unbranded E unit is the Dynatec has much thicker wiring.

[Mikep328]

On my "bed-in the front brake" run today I did a number of WOT/red line pulls and the bike pulls harder with the OEM ignition than it did with the E-ignition.  There is a noticeably stronger surge going through 6000-6500 RPM than previously - it was quite noticeable.

I have no idea why this should happen.  Timing is the same as it was with the E-ignition.  I thought that maybe the points allow more current to the coils than the E did.  But there has never been any indication that the spark was lacking at high load.

Re timing...I said it's the same but that may not be exactly correct.  The timing with E ignition was spot-on with a strobe both at idle and at full advance (around 2500 RPM).  When I installed the points I set the timing statically - no strobe - so I didn't verify the max advance.  Also, the advance mechanisms were from different original (to Honda) suppliers.  Of course the characteristics should be the same but since I didn't strobe the points, I can't be sure that the max advance is identical for both. 

In any case, it's running great on the points!!

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

I agree the most likely cause is the advancer curve being closer to original.

Have you eliminated the Placebo effect Mike - its a proven effect on humans.

[Mikep328]

"Have you eliminated the Placebo effect Mike - its a proven effect on humans.
"

Good point!  I know that the "Butt Dyno" is notoriously inaccurate and it's possible but the tach really did seem to move much quicker thought the 6000-7000 range.

[K2-K6]

Without knowing the spec of E system triggering characteristic it may potentially be hiding something of influence.

Specifically,  the dwell characteristic may be different.  The points using 5 k ohm coil resistance and fairly long dwell to accommodate high rpm drop off (same angular movements, but as rpm increaese then dwell drops away in time that the coil "sees" ) so you get good saturation at lower range with longer dwell tbat may influence the outcome.

The E systems often make use of constant dwell, irrespective of engine speed. This may often be paired with lower coil resistance as it's not needed to mitigate for changes in this dwell time.

The E may possibly need a 3 k ohm coil set to fully utilise and saturate them through from low to mid rpm range. Could account for change in starting too.