Front brake "update"

[Mikep328]

Thought I'd post this due to the general interest in the front brake performance and the internet myth that the front brake was no good from the factory.  Yes, I continue to have a bit of a bone to pick re the concept that the front brake is inherently poor.

A week ago I removed the HEL brake lines (link below) that I had installed two years ago when I was sorting out the (as received from the PO) TERRIBLE front brake.  The rear brake actually had more stopping power no matter how hard I squeezed the front lever.  So in "overhauling" the system I also replaced the original brake lines with the HEL's and, after a lot of testing/five different pads/bedding in, I found/stated that the brakes were quite good.  Other than the HEL lines, the brakes were totally stock - rebuilt with "Honda" parts if available rather than pattern parts (piston, seals, etc)

So last week I replaced the HELs with the standard (pattern) brake lines (from DSS).  I would have purchased the "Honda" lines but they were special order through DSS and I didn't want to wait.  I was curious if the "better" HEL brake lines were a major factor in the improved performance and I was prepared to put them back on.  But there was no difference at all in feel and the front brake can still overwhelm the tire.  IOW, the totally stock brake system can lock the front wheel!  Yes, it takes a considerable bit of hand pressure but there is plenty of braking power available.  One thing I have discovered in relation to this is that along with PROPERLY bedding in the pads, the front tire pressure is important. 

Honda states the tire pressure (psi) is 26F/28R.  I have seen internet (so it must be true) statements that modern motorcycle tires must have higher pressure than the tires that were in use back then.  But I have found that if the front pressure is raised on my CB400F there is less braking force available and the tire will start howling (impending lockup) under hard braking with noticeably less front brake pressure than with the pressure at 26PSI.  IOW, I have more front stopping power with the modern tires at 26 PSI than at 28-30 PSI.  The rear will lock up very easily so doing skids is a doodle if that's your thing.  I have never done anything/checked anything on the rear brake - it's just as I received the bike.   I probably should at least check the shoes for wear...I'll do that one of these days. 

https://www.helperformance.com/honda-cb400-f-1975-1977-standard-replacement-brake-lines-hel-stainless-steel-braided

[taysidedragon]

New rubber hoses should work well, it's just that as they age they start to bulge and reduce braking force and feel. Braided hoses don't do that. 👍

[Mikep328]

One thing I forgot to add to post...

I found that I get better braking feel/power with the caliper adjustment bolt 3/4 to 1 full turn out from where the pad touches the rotor rather than the 1/3 to 1/2 turn specified by Honda.  With the Honda setting the lever "hardens up" too far out from the handlebar for optimum feel FOR ME. Obviously this would vary with different operator preference.

[florence]

I would agree with your comments, the brake is not bad.  The feel is not great but the effectiveness is more than adequate. 

To convince myself I set up an emergency stop test on a quiet country road.  I placed a marker at the side of the road, turned round and rode a good distance away, such that I could turn round again and approach my marker at 60MPH.  At the marker I applied the brakes fully to come to an emergency stop and took note of the overall stopping distance.  I was very pleased with the result and it improved my confidence in the bike.

Things I have found helpful are; correct adjustment, incidentally brakes seem to squeal more when correctly set up, braided hoses and replacement master cylinder, the latter making the biggest difference.

[Mikep328]

The way I have always viewed conventional (non ABS) brakes is that if you can lock the wheel, as I can with my 400F, there is plenty of braking power. 

As I pointed out a couple of years ago, a Cycle World 2021 road test of a middleweight Honda - don't recall which model - produced the same 60-0 stopping distance as their original road test of the CB400F.  SO clearly the 400F had perfectly good brakes when new/in proper operating condition.

[TrickyMicky]

I agree with the above comments. A couple of years ago I renewed the whole front system apart from the disc.  All the replaced items were standard, even new rubber hoses.  I have always found the brake powerful enough to lock the wheel if desired(!!!). Yes, it requires firm lever pressure, but I have been brought up with vehicles whereby if you wanted hard braking, then you had to apply equal force.  My two exceptions being, I have a 1987 GB250 Clubman which has a twin pot caliper, and I have to remind myself of this if I have had a long spell of riding the 400.  Before I retired, I was a coach driver, and my last vehicle was a 2004 German model. The brakes - Holy S--t,  it had this 'brake assist' system whereby it registered how quickly your foot operated the pedal, as opposed to how far down your were pressing it, and the brakes came on with a bang.  Just as an aside, as the last MOT on my 400 was 10 years ago, I booked it into my local test station for a safety check, ie. an MOT without any paperwork.  I came out with no faults found, and when I questioned him about brake performance, he replied "They stopped the rollers, can't ask more than that".   That was this week's feel good factor.