Post by: Honda Al on June 12, 2016, 11:41:45 AM
I'm having trouble making my new HM 323 pipes fit correctly on the CB500. No matter what I do or fettle with, I cannot get them to line up. The main problem being the bottom silencers are 1/2 inch off line with the balance tubes and I cannot connect them. The top ones look fine
This is what I have done and checked ...
Brackets are fitted the correct way around. New repro brackets from DSS.
Brackets fitted either side of the foot peg/frame.
System fits flush at the engine end.
System is clearing the engine and frame, not getting caught up with anything.
Anyone had any experience fitting the new repro systems and encountered similar problems? Any help greatly appreciated - this has beaten me :(
Alan
Post by: deltarider on June 12, 2016, 01:20:50 PM
Post by: Honda Al on June 12, 2016, 01:30:07 PM
Post by: Bryanj on June 12, 2016, 01:52:26 PM
Post by: Honda Al on June 12, 2016, 04:26:21 PM
Post by: Bryanj on June 12, 2016, 05:25:23 PM
Post by: Trigger on June 12, 2016, 05:29:07 PM
Nope
Are you sure Bryan ;D ;D
Post by: Honda Al on June 12, 2016, 05:39:04 PM
Post by: Trigger on June 12, 2016, 06:35:33 PM
Post by: Honda Al on June 12, 2016, 07:30:19 PM
Yep.
Would you expect it from a brand new set of pipes though? 😐
Post by: Trigger on June 12, 2016, 08:24:25 PM
Post by: JamesH on June 12, 2016, 09:18:24 PM
Post by: Honda Al on June 12, 2016, 09:24:10 PM
I've fitted 5 sets of these to-date with no issues..all were with the original Honda brackets (refurbished)..
This must be where things are going wrong. 😕 Don't suppose any of you fine gentleman have a set laying around that I could compare with?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on June 12, 2016, 10:01:13 PM
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Nurse Julie on June 12, 2016, 10:40:49 PM
Post by: Bryanj on June 13, 2016, 05:54:33 AM
Post by: paulbaker1954 on June 13, 2016, 06:56:49 AM
Here is where I went wrong and how I then got it right.
Firstly I started with the lhs and wrongly put the no 2 cylinder outside the frame (it should go INSIDE FRAME) this is an easy mistake to make and will NEVER fit. Then I tightened up the exhaust flanges fully and the fitted brackets and it was all bad as your description with the interconnect pipes miles out. This was wrong approach and actually ended up bending a bracket slightly.
Here is how I did it right. Make sure the number 2 Pipe lies inside frame, put exhaust headers on but do NOT fully tighten yet just get them located but leave some waggle slack. Now put brackets on making sure they go inside AND outside rear rest bracket.
Now gradually tighten all up and should be ok. Oh and yes I did end up bending one of the brackets back a bit but think that is because I bent it in my first bad fit attempt.
Mine fit pretty well now except I never did get the connecting pies on lhs exactly in line and also I had to fettle a small bracket to extend the place where the main stand rubber goes as the main stand was missing the rubber and whacking the pipes.
Just needs patience and some fettling
Hope this helps
Post by: deltarider on June 13, 2016, 07:08:43 AM
Quote
and wrongly put the no 2 cylinder outside the frame (it should go INSIDE FRAME) this is an easy mistake to make and will NEVER fit.I disagree on this. Decades ago I made that mistake myself and never knew it. Exhausts worked perfectly and when I took them of, I could see by inspecting the gaskets that the headers had made full contact. Now, that I wanna do it as Sohron describes, the brackets are distorted somewhat and now I can't get it right. Wish I never started it and had left them the way they were, even if it was't according to the book. You may be interested to read this thread: http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,9170.msg63297.html#msg63297
BTW, CB500s that have the balance pipes precisely in line are rare and were rare, even on new bikes back then.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on June 13, 2016, 08:30:35 AM
Its probably the side on view showing the bends that would be better Ash
Here goes:- couldnt use Julies wedding dress background though :-[ :-[
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
Post by: deltarider on June 13, 2016, 10:30:46 AM
Post by: Honda Al on June 13, 2016, 11:14:13 AM
Post by: deltarider on June 13, 2016, 12:23:57 PM
Quote
Cheers Ash, I'll compare when I get home.Is it my eyes or did Ashimoto put them on unlevel ground/
Post by: AshimotoK0 on June 13, 2016, 12:53:07 PM
QuoteCheers Ash, I'll compare when I get home.Is it my eyes or did Ashimoto put them on unlevel ground/
two wall tiles both on same level +/- 0.5mm ;)
Post by: Bryanj on June 13, 2016, 01:47:55 PM
Front wheel
Front mudguard
Handlebars with switch gear Master left dangling with little bracket
Headlamp
Rear light
Small parts
Post by: deltarider on June 13, 2016, 03:33:32 PM
Post by: Honda Al on June 13, 2016, 06:46:32 PM
On a side note I emailed CMSNL about exhaust gases leaking from the muffler studs, and they are looking into it. Said they have not come across this before. Perhaps someone or something was against me with this project! :-\
Alan
Post by: deltarider on June 13, 2016, 07:22:58 PM
Post by: Honda Al on June 13, 2016, 07:28:31 PM
Ashimoto and Honda Al, thank you very much, both of you. Your posts with photo's are the best I've seen in a long, long time.
Is it my banana that's made you say that? ;)
Post by: AshimotoK0 on June 13, 2016, 09:23:22 PM
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
Post by: Honda Al on June 13, 2016, 09:26:30 PM
Post by: paulbaker1954 on June 14, 2016, 06:26:32 AM
Post by: Bryanj on June 14, 2016, 07:03:34 AM
Post by: royhall on June 14, 2016, 07:16:21 AM
The dreadful pattern exhausts for the CB350F were all the same. I had exhausts from three different suppliers and they were all bad. Sent them all back in the end.
Strangely these exhausts seem to have disappeared now. I hope they are going to redo them as it was just the welding that was crap.
The pressings were good and the chroming was top notch, got to wonder why they went to all that effort to chrome horrible welds. CMSL told me they had hundreds of units and they were all the same. Wonder if they thought they could get away with it.
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on June 14, 2016, 07:30:31 AM
That's interesting Ash the factvthatvthe DS and CMS instructions are the same would confirm they use the same manufacturer a fact I had long suspected
The CMS boxes are the give away with a DS sticker on, Paul. ;) ;) . Thing is that I won't be fitting them yet and if there is a problem when I do, I reckon DS would still sort it out whereas I have had bad reports about returns to CMS. e.g. Saisei had bad fitting 400/4 downpipes from them but had to get me to confirm there was a fitting issue before they would consider refunding him. May be something to do with trader-to-trader transactions but still sounds a bit sh*tty customer service to me. Having said that in all my years of restoring Honda's I have never bought a single item from CMS so they could be great for all I know.
The puzzle to me on the 500 exhaust is that DS kept rejecting them as not being fit for sale but CMS were selling them. I wonder if Roy's experience comes in here. i.e CMS possibly sold the ones of early manufacture that DS would not accept. 'Coastpath' on eBay used to work for CMS BTW, that's why you see him selling prototypes unchromed etc. He is in Wales but everything is shipped from a warehouse in Holland!
Post by: Bryanj on June 14, 2016, 07:38:12 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on June 14, 2016, 07:40:12 AM
I have bought parts from CMS but strangely Suzuki parts and never had a problem
Have you ever had to return anything Bryan?
Post by: Bryanj on June 14, 2016, 07:58:41 AM
Post by: Honda Al on June 14, 2016, 08:16:25 AM
Post by: Honda Al on June 14, 2016, 12:27:15 PM
I'll keep you updated on my progress with CMS regarding the leaky muffler. So far, so good and they replied back quickly asking for photos.
Photos have been passed onto the suppliers for comment.
Post by: flatfour on June 14, 2016, 07:26:01 PM
I was offered a refund or the option to wait for a new part, which was the route that I took. In the meantime, John Wyatt sent me a used spring from a bike that he was preparing for track use, where the kick starter would not be needed.
The correct spring from CMS arrived about two weeks later, so I now have a spare in case it happens again!
I have, over the years bought quite a lot from CMS and found them always happy to talk over the telephone, with a named contact in case of problems after their returns procedure has been initiated.
Post by: deltarider on June 15, 2016, 09:45:50 AM
Post by: Honda Al on June 15, 2016, 12:26:25 PM
Back to the subject. Ashimoto and others, are you sure that every CB500 Four is supposed to have the brackets on in- and outside of the frame eye? Reason I ask is that this morning I phoned with one of the SOHC Four shops in Holland. When I asked the mechanic for advise, he told me to mount the exhausts so that both in front they sit well as in the rear have the tubes close enough (obvious). 'If that means both brackets are on the outside, so be it.' He added that sometimes he himself and in spite of mounting newly ordered brackets, had to have them both on the outside. What's your experience?
I did try this when I was stuggling and it didn't make any difference. They still didn't line up!
Post by: royhall on June 15, 2016, 02:52:58 PM
Post by: deltarider on June 15, 2016, 04:16:40 PM
Post by: hairygit on June 15, 2016, 04:49:25 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on June 15, 2016, 04:50:09 PM
[attachimg=1]
Post by: deltarider on June 15, 2016, 04:57:12 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on June 15, 2016, 05:17:34 PM
Those with lugs are the ones I have on my CB500K2 (that was assembled around 1976). They were also on the CB550K2 '76. You could do me an enormous favor by measuring/photographing them as well. An useful overview of differences between the CB500, CB500K1 and CB500K2 (ED, F, G) which was different from the CB500K2 in the USA is found here (scroll down) www.honda4fun.com/home/faq/generali/111-cb500-differenze-k0-k1-k2 Then you'll understand the lugs. The CB500K2 (ED, F, G) was marketed in Europe in 1976-7 and shares many parts with the CB550K2 '76. The CB500K2 (A) was marketed in 1973 in the US.
Sorry, as I said, I traded those with James but I am sure he will measure them for you if he's not used them yet. The photo I posted was an internet shot, not the traded ones.
Post by: deltarider on June 17, 2016, 10:55:30 AM
Post by: Honda Al on June 17, 2016, 12:17:39 PM
I'll keep you posted. Think I might give it another go this weekend, using Ash's measurements from stock brackets.
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Post by: Honda Al on June 17, 2016, 12:44:06 PM
I'm studying your pictures and I wonder if the metal where the holes are (those for mounting I mean, so one top and two down) is supposed to be parallel. Would be nice if anyone with a stock, undamaged set of brackets had connections in the 3D-printing world, btw.
The exhausts seemed to be level when I fitted them, just not in line vertically. I'll double check this weekend.
Alan
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Post by: deltarider on June 17, 2016, 12:48:04 PM
Post by: Honda Al on June 17, 2016, 12:59:32 PM
I hope Ash is accurate. I'm measuring myself right now. The top brackets (18435-374-670 and 18345-374-670) seem pretty close. I suppose when measuring the height as in Ash's pics my top brackets I have to ignore the lugs that are welded on. The lower brackets (18430-323-040 and 18340-323-040) are of but I haven't figured out which way is best to rebend them.
I was thinking the same thing, how to bend them. Looking at my repro ones they have a gentler bend at the bottom as opposed to Ash's which looks like one bend. I might try and replicate that. The top one just needs a spacer between bracket and frame I think.
Think I'll be putting the kettle on for this project and send more time looking at it than fitting it!
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on June 17, 2016, 01:03:21 PM
Post by: paulbaker1954 on June 17, 2016, 02:25:06 PM
I wasnt over scientific with mine, just eyed up roughly where things needed rotating to and whacked the bracket in my vice with a rubber mallet to bend it. ;D ;D ;D
I wouldnt get too over scientific as someone said even originals never fitted perfecty
Post by: Honda Al on June 17, 2016, 02:45:12 PM
I wouldnt get too over scientific as someone said even originals never fitted perfecty
It'll pay with my OCD if it didn't fit perfectly!
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Post by: deltarider on June 18, 2016, 04:53:49 PM
Post by: MeilakJ on June 18, 2016, 11:55:44 PM
They did not come exactly perfect where they join together at the rear but I still managed to connect the rubber and clip.
Overall I am quite happy with the fitment as I have kept in mind that these are reproduction. As allways in my experience you cannot expect that any reproduced part be as exact as an original.
Hope my info helps
Post by: deltarider on June 19, 2016, 06:55:31 AM
Quote
Hope my info helpsHow did you mount them? Did you have to tweak the brackets? Have you measured them as Ash has?
Post by: Honda Al on June 19, 2016, 07:23:50 AM
QuoteHope my info helpsHow did you mount them? Did you have to tweak the brackets? Have you measured them as Ash has?
Fitted mine yesterday and with Ash's helpful measurements, was able to get a better fit this time. Left side lines up beautifully, right side still out but only by 3-4mm.
This is what I did in the end to make the repro brackets work -
- bent the lower exhaust brackets using a vice so they measured up the same as Ash's. The repro ones have two faint lines pressed into them where they start to curve. Using the lower line (closer to the two holes), place the bracket into a vice up to this line and then bend the bracket gently (applying pressure to the middle area) until it measures 65mm.
- I also drilled the top hole of the lower bracket (where it mounts onto the foot peg) larger to give more vertical movement. Not a massive amount of movement so as to bend the pipes or apply undue pressure. This helped when lining up the rubber tube.
- When fitting the bracket for the for the top mufflers, no need to bend them but add a spacer or two between bracket and frame ~ 1-2mm. This helped bring the top mufflers in line.
- I took a tip from this thread about not tightening up any bolts until the system is in place, any then gradually tightening them so you can see if there is any misalignment.
- Sounds daft, but use new exhaust gaskets. Even if you think the old ones are still good.
As I said, not 100% perfect on the right side but a lot better than my previous attempt.
And sorry, no pictures of the mods. I should have taken some but it was a little Heath Robinson on the go, I was fighting time as my daughter had a party, my wife was pestering me about what time is was (every 10mins) and I was trying to hold a cup of tea in one hand! ;)
Hope this helps, but feel free to ask for more info.
Alan
Post by: deltarider on June 19, 2016, 04:14:09 PM
Post by: Honda Al on June 19, 2016, 04:56:51 PM
Thanks Al, but I did not get what part of the bracket was held by the vise. I wonder how close your pipe #2 is to the sidestand bolt and nut.
Using DSS picture -
You see the two faint lines pressed into the bracket? At the end where two holes are for the exhaust studs? Place the bracket in the vice (two holes end) up to the first line.
The clearance for pipe two is tight, ~ 4-5mm, but no movement and it doesn't look like it'll touch.
Post by: deltarider on June 19, 2016, 06:51:13 PM