Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: alexdecker on March 04, 2022, 02:36:33 PM
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Hey all
Rather late in my disassembly, I realise that my swingarm look rather different than what I've seen on other pictures. It was also chrome and not black. Is this not an original CB550F 1978 swingarm?
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It looks about right if yours is a F2 but, they were never chromed as standard.
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Yep that's an F swinging arm, massive closed loop rear brackets with the left hand one having the drilling for the chain guard stay.
Shame they didn't bother keeping the chrome cleaner.
Needs new bushes. Fit phosphor bronze ones instead of the OE fibre ones.
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Yep that's an F swinging arm, massive closed loop rear brackets with the left hand one having the drilling for the chain guard stay.
Shame they didn't bother keeping the chrome cleaner.
Needs new bushes. Fit phosphor bronze ones instead of the OE fibre ones.
Still working on getting the old ones out ;D Where can I source the bronze ones? And why are they better?
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Nurse Julie, then sit down, take out a second mortgage and buy a new collar as well.
You can use an earlier collar(easier to get but still expensive) as long as you fit the 500 bolt with grease nipple at each end
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Alex your in Europe yes?
If so lots of German sellers sell the bronze bushes.
As Bryan says, check the internal collar, which is just the big tube running through the arm, check the ends where it sits inside the bushes, most are worn and will show that wear, some are rusted (which is odd considering they are supposed to be covered in grease). If it's worn your going to have to decide whether to reuse it or replace it, post a pic of how it looks and we'll advice.
As for the old bushes, they are just fibre, a quick run with a small hacksaw blade (like the centre stand pivot pin) and they'll just fall out usually. Once you get one out you can sometimes find a socket exactly the right size to fit inside the arm and use that to drive out the other.
Other alternative is to fit a needle roller conversion kit which comes with it's own collar, they are around £125 which sounds a lot but a set of bronze bushes is £30ish, new collar is £70 or so so not that much dearer and they stiffen up the arm much better or are supposed to, never tried one myself but I'm thinking about it right now.
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Alex your in Europe yes?
If so lots of German sellers sell the bronze bushes.
As Bryan says, check the internal collar, which is just the big tube running through the arm, check the ends where it sits inside the bushes, most are worn and will show that wear, some are rusted (which is odd considering they are supposed to be covered in grease). If it's worn your going to have to decide whether to reuse it or replace it, post a pic of how it looks and we'll advice.
As for the old bushes, they are just fibre, a quick run with a small hacksaw blade (like the centre stand pivot pin) and they'll just fall out usually. Once you get one out you can sometimes find a socket exactly the right size to fit inside the arm and use that to drive out the other.
Other alternative is to fit a needle roller conversion kit which comes with it's own collar, they are around £125 which sounds a lot but a set of bronze bushes is £30ish, new collar is £70 or so so not that much dearer and they stiffen up the arm much better or are supposed to, never tried one myself but I'm thinking about it right now.
Thank you, I will scour some German parts site for them :) My center stand is still stuck, so fearing the worst with these bushes as well. The internal collar has some grease on it, but it is stuck in there really bad. Trying different things to get it out. Center stand and swingarm is the last thing, and then she is completely in pieces (finally!).
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Alex. Julie sells the bronze bushes. Much better than the original solution and will outlast the bike if maintained correctly.
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"Other alternative is to fit a needle roller conversion kit which comes with it's own collar, they are around £125 which sounds a lot but a set of bronze bushes is £30ish, new collar is £70 or so so not that much dearer and they stiffen up the arm much better or are supposed to, never tried one myself but I'm thinking about it right now."
The bronze bushes are definitely good and significantly change the lifing of this pivot compared to original, very worthwhile.
For pure performance (the arm is essentially flexy on many of this era bikes) the needle roller will outperform the other solutions. It's this pivot that contributes most to the "hinge in the middle" comments so often used in contemporary road test descriptions of the bikes. Most current bikes of any decent quality will use this or tapers (which won't fit in these) to make the suspension work well.
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If doing the needle roller, are you guys talking about something like this?
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Er What?
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Like this Alex, search ebay for a european seller, they'll be some I reckon.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/153413131982
Bronze bushes, I've bought 4 pairs from Frank but now he doesn't sell to the UK.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/363414668187
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Er What?
Sorry, forgot to insert the link, but it was the exact eBay link Oddjob just posted! 😊 So yes would be the answer to my question! Thanks!
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Found another seller slightly cheaper.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/284533794663?_trkparms=amclksrc%3DITM%26aid%3D111001%26algo%3DREC.SEED%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20160908105057%26meid%3D54b2c5d5ec6c482ba975264bdc0d7f72%26pid%3D100675%26rk%3D2%26rkt%3D15%26sd%3D284533794658%26itm%3D284533794663%26pmt%3D0%26noa%3D1%26pg%3D2380057%26brand%3DTour+Max&_trksid=p2380057.c100675.m4236&_trkparms=pageci%3A41083ef3-9cac-11ec-9d7f-f204a5b0f92c%7Cparentrq%3A5b31167c17f0a7b1f032d976ffef526a%7Ciid%3A1
Trouble is the postage to the EU is ridiculous, they are charging import duties as well and I don't think they are due.
Better to get someone to buy it for you, unpackage it to component parts and send it in a jiffy bag as a gift. Even put in a happy birthday post it note to fool the customs :D :D
Where are you in the EU Alex? I could get a postage rate as I ordered one for myself so I'd have the weight.
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In all honesty i dont think the needle rollers are worth it for a stock street bike, especially when you can get the bronze bushes from Frank so cheap and if you grease regularly they will last you out.
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Hey, I'm not planning to die for 40 years yet Bryan, what do you mean by they'll last you out ;D ;D ;D
TBH I'm just doing this for the increased handling they give, not really doing it for longevity.
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Ken, we both know that if greased like Honda said the originals would last forever. Its people expecting grease to last the 4 years it takes to do 1500 miles!
Like the Ford escort owner who was surprised his cambelt broke at 30,000 miles but it was 7 yrs old. Nobody reads the OR bit in the service scedule book!
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I live in Copenhagen, Denmark! Will try and see if I can find some in the German eBay!
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The bushes have an irony in that the better you make them technically and with tightened tolerances, then they are more likely to give a problem in torsion. The material is a competent solution if everything stays aligned in use.
Issue comes from shock performance, specifically matcing exactly as a pair. Any mismatch during higher speed compression (that's damper shaft speed, when the bike is loaded and you drop into a dip) and one arm compresses faster than the other, putting the pivot into torsion which then locks it on the pivot. The rear wheel then tracks to a different line than the front as it cocks sideways momentarily giving that rear wheel steering feel.
These frames where often blamed but they aren't bad at all, if you try to shift one on a jig they take quite a tonnage to move them. The swingarm is another matter though, and why many tried bracing on them to improve resistance.
The biggest illustration when riding them in contemporary era was if you had a pillion on there and running through a corner when you went through a dip, they would certainly show you then what it's about.
The problem is with the shock, but it promotes response in pivot, needle rollers are the correct solution for that.
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I have read that a lot of the top classic CR750's raced in the US use standard swingarms as they don't flex - box section swing arms where maybe an incorrect solution to the swing arm bush problem - the replacement swing arm would come with replacement bushes i guess which solved the problem. Take your point on the matching damper/spring being an issue though
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The 750 and 500/550 arms are very different in construction, one from the other.
The 750 is a true monocoq concept with the skin taking load in most direction, and really quite a clever design too.
The 500 relatively is poor, with roughly three tubes welded together and additional skin bracing stuck on top. They haven't even welded it where it probably needs it (internally near where the tire wall is) but then if they did that it's bad practice in fatigue teams from having a continuous weld that would possibly crack at that point. It's got the appearance of significant compromise in pure engineering integrity. Definitely looks cost compromised.
The 750 is a far more elegant solution, and in all reality a "box section" in it's own right.
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I don't know what I've done wrong, but my swing arm still doesn't show play. I don't think I've greased it more than maybe 7 times in 140.000 km and some of my attempts have not even been succesful... Could the modification the model CB500K2 (ED, F, G) had, have anything to do with it? For a picture scroll down in: https://www.honda4fun.com/faq/generali/400-cb500-differenze-tra-k0-k1-e-k2
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I don't know what I've done wrong, but my swing arm still doesn't show play. I don't think I've greased it more than maybe 7 times in 140.000 km and some of my attempts have not even been succesful... Could the modification the model CB500K2 (ED, F, G) had, have anything to do with it? For a picture scroll down in: https://www.honda4fun.com/faq/generali/400-cb500-differenze-tra-k0-k1-e-k2
Yes but you build your roads smooth on your country and much of Europe too :) we don't do that here ;D
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Ken, we both know that if greased like Honda said the originals would last forever. Its people expecting grease to last the 4 years it takes to do 1500 miles!
Like the Ford escort owner who was surprised his cambelt broke at 30,000 miles but it was 7 yrs old. Nobody reads the OR bit in the service scedule book!
Interestingly most car cam belt failures on modern cars are due to either tensioner wheels failing or severe oil contamination of the belt. The Volvo ones are changed at something like 100k miles or every 10 years. Inevitably the cost involves changing the tensioner wheels at the same time.