Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on April 25, 2023, 11:21:51 AM
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The DS 500 front mudguards need the top hat spacers & washers fitting to six of the holes due to the different hole sizes in the stays from the original stay. The stays were attached to the mudguard in the box from new.
No problem with the fork bridge end but the fit of the stays to the bottom of the fork legs is such that the stay ends do not fit neatly into the fork legs as they are a bit too wide to fit into the recess place at the bottom.
Firstly I assume the top hat spacer fits from the outside into the stay rubbers - either way the thickness of the top hat would give enough clearance if fitted against the fork legs. Obviously I do not want to file new chrome.
Best way forward that I can see would be to fit some thick washers against the fork legs - if needed fit slightly longer bolts. Has anyone else encountered this problem - suggestions please?
PS I have loosened the stay to mudguard bolts the issue is to align the bottom centrally in the stay they are just too wide at the bottom end to fit snuggly.
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Trying to visualise the problem Ted.
The rubbers go onto the stays, the tophats go into rubbers, they go in from the outside in, so long as the rubbers fit inside the small recesses in the fork slider there should be no problem, the stays should be spaced well away from the recesses. If the stay is too wide just gently bent it inwards until it's a close fit but not an exact fit, you want a little spring in the metal to keep the bolts under some tension.
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I have the rubbers and top hats fitted as you describe Ken.
If I tighten them up as they are the end of the stays are against the fork end and it sits at an angle not flat.
I haven't tried this but bending the end flat section inwards would probably make them fit okay.
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did you go for the OEM or the copy?? I will need to get one as well soon.
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OEM listed at DS as genuine part - I believe they are 750 ones - price extra was not big.
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Put a pic up Ted so we an see what you see.
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Had my eye operation yesterday afternoon (Entropion) so will have to leave the bike alone for 10-14 days.
When able I will take a photo & post it Ken - my current thinking is if I loosen the stay to mudguard bolts the stays might fit - then tighten the stay to mudguard screws up.
My vision is not great atm plus I feel like someone has punched me hard in my right eye & socket - currently being pampered by SWMBO.
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This photo shows the stays as they are when in place - if I just tighten them up as they then the rubbers distort out of shape - the stays push against the fork legs making the stay holes just out of centre with the bolt if you get my drift.
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52849650582_b0da0bb5f1_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2ow9gS7)500 stays (https://flic.kr/p/2ow9gS7) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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Just a thought Ted, regarding where the stays are mounted on the guard. The black plastic spacers. Otherwise there’s not much else you can do. By slightly reshaping or reducing the diameter of the guard that would sort.
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As you can see the stays are effectively a double section - the rear section is wider than the front part.
On my original stays they are both the same size so there is no overlay at the rear of the tip of the stays.
When I am able might be worth undoing the stay to mudguard bolts to see if that helps. The size on the outside layer looks spot on - it's the overlay of the rear section that spoils a simple fit.
Might be worth getting in touch with DS if I can't come up with a solution.
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If you put the tophat in from rear of stay (the wrong way round) will the stay then clear the fork casting recess ?
If so, you could then use a simple stainless washer outside to clamp the rubber. May need slightly longer bolt to achieve.
Would keep the stay from binding on aluminium casting and look near enough standard.
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Tried that K2-,K6 the top hat would need to be a lot thicker to give enough clearance.
I've sent a message with photo to DS I hope they are just a poor batch of stays - I will update with the response.
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It's not perfect but loosening the screws on the stay to mudguard fastenings has enabled the bottom end to fit quite satisfactorily on three of the four stay ends with just one that needs a bit more fettling I think loosening the screws where the plastic spacers fit has helped no end.
I snook into the garage as SWMBO has nipped into town - I have broken my bail conditions (no work on the bike for at least a week) pretty sure the last stay can be sorted when I am officially allowed outside .lol
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Ted there is a small piece of metal sticking out past the stay, is that also the stay? or is it the tophat?
To me it looks like the stay is not one piece of metal but 2 stuck together? with the back piece not being ground down before chroming so it matches the front piece.
As for the rubber crushing, how can it do that, the tophat is there to stop that happening, before the rubber distorts the central tube of the tophat is supposed to ground against the fork slider and stop the bolt from tightening anymore. Does the central tube not fully reach the other side of the rubber?
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That is the issue Ken the stay end section is made up of two parts - the outer part is fashioned from the stay itself with a plate at the back effectively a re-enforcement plate.
The original stays are the same except both parts are the same width - if the rear re-enforcement was the same size as the front it would be all good.
In the photo you can see my bolts, a washer, top hat - the next bit is the front part of the stay end the wider section at the back is the re-enforcement plate.
"To me it looks like the stay is not one piece of metal but 2 stuck together? with the back piece not being ground down before chroming so it matches the front piece." CORRECT KEN
This is original stay below,
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52851269683_702274b1fd_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2owhzaD)PXL_20230427_143930802 (https://flic.kr/p/2owhzaD) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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Ted, years ago I bought a DS copy front guard for my blue 400/4 - I know yours was supposed to be genuine but although the 400 doesn't have rubbers and top-hats I had the same problem. It was only on one side in my case and being reluctant to file the end off the stay, with the likely chance of rust forming very quickly, I eased the 'spot faced' section of the slider with the Dremel. It's a solid lump, nowhere near the oil and can easily take a bit of dressing.
Ian
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Sorry Ted! I misunderstood the problem! Oops 😳 I wrongly thought it was just an alignment problem.
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Yes Ian that sounds the best way forwards especially as it now just one stay that is the problem.
DS have replied to the effect that some extra washers may be required on one side - was yours the right hand side like mine?
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Ted, I think it was the right hand side but that would only be a coincidence as mine was definitely a 400/4 copy - a bloody good one at that! Apart from that slight hiccup it was indistinguishable from the genuine one I still have on the red bike. The blue bike went a few years back. Looking carefully at your pic, it doesn't need much and could be easily disguised with a bit of light peening with a small rounded punch to look 'as cast' where it's ground out.
Ian
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Yes Ian it could be a coincidence but - I suspect that as the fork bridge only has the larger holes on the right side that needs the top hat arrangement this means the mudguard fitting is like an original 400 on the left side so any problems will be pushed over to the right.
If the stay end finish was as it should be there would be no issues imho.
Still it is what it is so I will do some fettling to make the errant right rear stay fit when SWMBO allows me to sort it. Not keen on the DS idea to fit washers - I would need something like an 18mm o/d washer with a 6mm bolt hole would probably need to be 2mm thick to be an effective fix. I would then want to fit them to all four ends so it looked right - your solution looks the best way forwards methinks.
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I would respectfully disagree Ian, if what I'm understanding you are saying is that in preference to grinding or filing the back of the stay down to suit the front you enlarged the recess in the fork slider to allow the stay to fit inside the enlarged recess?
If that's correct whilst I agree it's nowhere near the oil in the fork it is very close to the hole in the slider for the spindle clamp studs to thread into, any weakening of this area could result in the stud breaking out of the slider, especially under braking stresses. It's not something I would chance TBH. To me it's far easier to either use the original stays (if you have them of course and they are not rusty etc) or to grind or file down the back of the stay to match the front, I'd then paint the worked edge with zinc paint and apply a little grease to that area when mounting it.
I would also point out to DS that he consults with his supplier (can't be Honda as they'd have them made correctly) and ensure that any future orders aren't subject to the same fault. Just asking you to bodge it is unacceptable. To be sold in the UK it must be fit for purpose and these clearly are not. That fault would be a doddle to fix in manufacture, which proves they are going for profit and quantity more than quality.
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Honda stopped making the 500 four mudguard years ago and superceded the part to the 750 part number, and whilst the later 500 had 341 sliders i suspect the early ones and thenon caliper side are cast very slightly different
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DS describe it as a genuine part with the below information.
"This was originally intended for the CB750K2, it is perfectly suitable for the CB500 FOUR. It may desired to fit washers to one side of the mounting stay as the 750 had 10mm mounting bolts as opposed to the 500 which had 8mm."
I did wonder are the 750 fork legs a different profile or diameter?
I will see what DS say in response to my question about the stay end finish.
If I have to I'm leaning towards trimming the end of the stay back as an alternative - an expensive option could be to have my original stays re-chromed if they are the same fittings elsewhere.
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The 500 (6mm hole) is only about 16.5mm wide on the stay at that point, The larger hole stays are about 19.7mm. The scooped out section on the 500 is thus smaller. On the 550F (341 forks (yes 750 type)) the scooped out sections come within 24.7mm of each other on the 500 it is nearly 31mm. (if you see what I mean)
I think choices are limited. Either use the old stays or I think you would OK to take out a little material.
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"DS describe it as a genuine part with the below information."
This is the difference between Genuine and original parts. Original will fit easily, as its the correct part for that model, genuine will fit with fettling and do the job but it's not the correct part for that bike. Saying that, we've fitted 7 of these front mudguards and it's all down to manipulation when fitting them. I always had to help Graham by pushing or pulling or lifting a tad in different directions to get them to fit perfectly but it is achievable.
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I think that what I have done in getting 3 out of 4 stays to fit.
I ran out of time on the 4th as SWMBO was due back any minute so ran out of time.
My next window of opportunity will not be until the weekend - I do not want to risk Wendy's wrath if I am caught in the garage. I'm sure having met Wendy you can identify with my plight Julie 😁😁😁
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I think that what I have done in getting 3 out of 4 stays to fit.
I ran out of time on the 4th as SWMBO was due back any minute so ran out of time.
My next window of opportunity will not be until the weekend - I do not want to risk Wendy's wrath if I am caught in the garage. I'm sure having met Wendy you can identify with my plight Julie 😁😁😁
😂 😂 😂 😂 😂 Wendy knows best Ted. Wait another week and then loosen off all the nuts and bolts and get Wendy to help you, it really is easier to fit it with 2 people.