Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 27, 2023, 07:38:33 PM
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Just removed the circlip to check the primary drive cushions - they are very hard so I intend to replace them when my parts arrive from DS.
When I dismantled the primary drive it came out like in the picture when I drifted out one bearing, the second bearing is still on the shaft.
What is the best way to re-assemble this when I eventually fasten up the crank cases?
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52930448668_c336d0f84a_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oDhojy)primary drive hub (https://flic.kr/p/2oDhojy) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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Back in same way it came out Ted, centre part with bearings, collars and gear held in place shaft with bearing and gear fed in from clutch side, more difficult to explain than do!
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The photo I posted is how it came out - atm the shaft is pretty much stuck to the central hub, photos in my manual show the left side primary drive main bearing as being placed in situ. The Starter Clutch & Primary drive hub with the chain in place lying with the starter gear meshed between 2/3 gear on the main shaft. Presumably when the casing halves are fitted together the shaft is then fitted from the clutch end of the casing.
Does this sound right?
Is there supposed to be a circlip fitted at the end of the shaft where the end gear is fitted in my photo can't remember if mine had one or not tbh ?
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Neither can i Ted, look at the parts book, and yes you fitting idea is correct
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Parts book showing the primary drive does not show the gear yet alone any circlip. It must be listed somewhere else.
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Clutch page?
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Yup, part number 9451020000 20 mm circlip
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After soaking the hub in petrol for an hour or so I have managed at last to remove it from the shaft without causing any damage.
Currently soaking the other end in the hope it will loosen the end gear.
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Ken and I had a recent exchange on this which you might find helpful Ted 👍
http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,29234.msg281319.html#msg281319
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Not understanding your comments about the hub not coming off the shaft Ted, as it's the only way you can remove it from the crankcase it must have come off originally for you to take pics of it. Most are really really easy to remove, they almost fall off.
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As for fitting it back in place Ted, I'd check both of the roller bearings for wear and play etc. Just put the shaft in a vice with the roller bearing sat on the top and after removing the circlip and the gear if it comes off you can just tap the shaft down leaving the bearing on top of the vice.
Reassemble the shaft with the bearing or a new bearing if required, tap home the bearing next to the oil pump, remove the oil pump as well. With the crankcases bolted together and it sitting on it's cylinder studs so the top case is at the bottom you fit the primary drive hub onto the primary chain with the starter gear nearest the oil pump, tap the primary shaft into the hub until it's just about coming through, there is a spacer that needs to be fitted that sits inside the starter gear now, if you fit it before the vibration of you hitting the primary shaft will dislodge it so fit it as described. Tap the shaft further in so the spacer is now on the shaft, here's the tricky bit. You need to look through the oil pimp opening and see where the end of the shaft is and which direction it needs to be moved to line up with the roller bearing, if you have a new chain and rubbers this will involve using a lever to move it to where it needs to be, protect the crankcase as you lever against it so it doesn't damage any surfaces. Small piece of wood will do. When you lever the shaft to align it with the roller bearing in the crankcase tap the shaft home, you may need to move the shaft a little to get the other roller bearing to go into place. Fit the gear (if not already fitted) and the circlip
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That makes partial sense to me as a serial overthinker & problem imaginer - has anyone done a video on U tube a link would be great?
It might be worth a dry run without Hondabond first.
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Honestly Ted its way easier than the descripion, you did the 400 so you can do this one!
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Do not do a dry run Ted, potential for double the damage.
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Honestly Ted its way easier than the descripion, you did the 400 so you can do this one!
The 400 was pretty easy as the centre section did not have a spacer to fall out iirc - it seemed more like one unit somehow.
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Yesterday as I thought my back was on the mend I removed the end gear & bearing from the primary drive shaft - I ended up using a puller that came with my steering head bearing removal kit.
No damage caused to parts (operator excluded) came off a treat - that gear was quite tightly on - new bearings on order. (thanks Ken for bearing links)
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Not understanding your comments about the hub not coming off the shaft Ted, as it's the only way you can remove it from the crankcase it must have come off originally for you to take pics of it. Most are really really easy to remove, they almost fall off.
You are right Ken, I must have slipped the centre section back on the shaft after I removed it. Just fitted the new cushion rubbers the hub seem a tight fit on the splines needing some tapping to fit. Can the splines wear so it needs putting back on in the same position it came off?
Is it worth some wire brushing of the splines so the shaft fits more easily?
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No, don't do anything. It's correct that everything should be tight, that's how you want it, doing anything will accelerate the wear and lessen the life of the dampers.
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I'm okay with fitting the left side primary drive bearing as I have a drift tool that works just fine - but unsure of the best way to fit the right bearing without causing any damage.
Old right side (clutch side) bearing & end gear came off the shaft a treat with a puller but not sure of the best way to fit the replacement bearing without causing any damage.
I'm worried about getting it out of line - then getting the inner race stuck - is heat a good option - I do not have access to a press?
Any tips welcome please.
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Ted, stop overthinking this stuff. It's a bearing on a shaft, put the bearing onto the top of a vice and beat the hell out of the shaft, it's that easy, assemble the opposite way to getting it off. These aren't put on using a hydraulic press, they are just banged on by hand most likely. So long as you protect the ends of the shaft from damage you're good. I reckon 2 knocks of a reasonably sized hammer and the bearing will fall off.
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I was worried about damaging the end of the shaft.
I guess with my current back pain my overthinking has become worse. 😭😭😭
Saw a Chiropractor on Tuesday who pummels the hell out of me for an hour. I have not been in so much pain with my back for decades good news is it's not skeletal "just" soft tissue damage FFS.
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That shaft is hardened steel Ted, just use a piece of scrap plate between the hammer and the shaft and you'll not damage anything. Plus I must have 5 or 6 of those shafts spare lying around if the worst happens.
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Done - bearing & gear fitted as you said Ken just a few taps of the hammer.
I need to source a new circlip - are SS ones worth the few pence extra DIN 471 whatever that means or A2?
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Stainless steel are ok to use Ted, always worth a few extra pennies in my opinion.
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I've fitted the new primary drive bearing into the left side of the lower casing (oil pump end) - it went in pretty easily using my drift tool.
The washer, new bearing, spacer & gear is fitted to the primary gear shaft.
Looking at the other end of the shaft - in the middleish section there is a circlip, then a plain washer then the collar/spacer followed by the needle roller - the hub then fits onto the starter gear end with the damper unit. End circlip can also be fitted beforehand as I have fitted new drive cushion rubbers.
When I have assembled the casing halves & torqued the bolts up I can then slide the shaft through from the clutch side (right hand) taking care when tapping the shaft in place making sure the washer, spacer & needle roller are aligned centrally as it's tapped through towards the previously fitted bearing on the oil pump side.
At this point some careful leverage is needed to align the shaft with the bearing.
Does this sound right ?
I have an 18 month old tube of Hondabond that appears to be still soft will this be okay or do I need to buy a new tube?
My back has improved I hope to fasten up the cases in the next week or so.
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Yep sounds right Ted. Hub is slid into the primary chain before closing the cases, it can be done after but it can be tricky. You leave the spacer that fits between the hub and the oil pump bearing off, as you slide the shaft through as soon as a little juts out of the other side of the hub then you slide that spacer on and keep watching to see if doesn't come off as the shaft moves along. Levering may be needed and usually is if the dampers and the chain have been replaced, you may need to lever the shaft some to align it with the oil pump bearing, leave the oil pump off and look through the opening and you can see which way it needs to be moved to be aligned. It's harder to type that to do.
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Thanks Ken I think I understand what's needed now - will my old tube of Hondabond be okay or will it dry too quickly as its old?
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Should be fine Ted, so long as it's still liquid.
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Just wanted to check if I have the assembly order correct in my head for the Primary Drive shaft.
Looking at my inverted upper case the hub will have the primary drive chain in place like in the photo below - it's angled out of position but will straighten up when I fit the upper casing & insert the shaft.
The shaft presently has the following components fitted at one end in this order - Circlip(new), Gear, Spacer, Bearing, Washer against the hub shaft boss so as to speak. Further down the shaft has a circlip and flat washer in place - then goes the small spacer before the needle roller bearing in the starter clutch.
When I insert this shaft with the bearing through the upper casing with the circlip & large washer fitted I can then slip on the small spacer then feed the shaft into the needle roller bearing as there is access from above through the sump hole.
I then have to align the end of the splined shaft with the bearing I have previously fitted to the lower casing and tap it into place - leverage may be needed to align the inner race with the splined shaft end.
The eagle eyed will have spotted plenty of excess assembly lube down various thread hole plus plenty of hairs etc.
I will be cleaning up and degreasing both mating surfaces before assembly. Plus gearbox oil seals not yet in position (2)
Do my meanderings sound correct ?
All my current casing bolts are Allen key headed SS bolts with SS washers - I might change the top case bolts for the 8 mm bolt headed type as they are more visible. Not sure if you can buy the specific lengths in SS.
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52997022052_ed7b8a265c_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oKaAgw)500 casings (https://flic.kr/p/2oKaAgw) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52997767994_3ce2070518_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oKeq1A)Primary Drive Shaft assembly (https://flic.kr/p/2oKeq1A) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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Ted, are the bolts (flanged) the same style on the 500/550 as the 400/4 ones? - ie reduced head? I'd like to source JIS (reduced head) flanged bolts but the only guy I have found so far wants around £12 a bolt!! - I could make them for much less. Let us know if you manage to source any 8mm bolts with 12mm flanged head in S/S...
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Ted, are the bolts (flanged) the same style on the 500/550 as the 400/4 ones? - ie reduced head? I'd like to source JIS (reduced head) flanged bolts but the only guy I have found so far wants around £12 a bolt!! - I could make them for much less. Let us know if you manage to source any 8mm bolts with 12mm flanged head in S/S...
None of my bolts are original they have been replaced previously with Alley key headed SS bolts & washers pretty much everywhere including cam covers & side covers.
On my 400 I had the originals Zinc Plated locally.
Parts manual shows the 10 M8 x 100 as bolts with 10 separate washers, the M6 bolts are the flanged type it appears.
Others have said Middletons have some good bolts to replace the JIS headed ones that look the part. M8 Hex Set x 100 £1.68 presume plus Vat & Post.
https://www.stainlessmiddleton.co.uk/32908-metric-fine-bolts-setscrews
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I doubt that Middleton would sell a 8 x 100 set bolt Ted, set means threaded full length and that particular bolt is partially threaded so not a set bolt. You must also factor in that some bolts used by Honda are metric fine, most if not all the 10mm bolts used by Honda are metric fine. Any that fit into a thread inside the part, like the clamp bolt for the fork stanchions in the lower yoke are metric fine. The engine hanger bolts were also metric fine BUT you can use standard metric ones in there and just use a standard nut instead, personally I'd use the correct metric fine.
I buy most of my stainless from Middletons, mainly because his bolts don't tend to have the stamping on them that most have, his are machined flat on the top then polished, they look chromed.
He does do flanged 6mm bolts but I suspect he buys them in as they are not to his usual standards. You can use a unflanged bolt and a washer though no problem.
M8 and M6 bolts are not metric fine BTW, the threads are all the standard pitch, 1.25 for 8mm and 1.00 for 6mm. Standard pitch on a 10mm bolt is 1.5, metric fine is 1.25.
In a short while a member on here whose bike I've recently worked on had all socket screws in the casings, including the camcover and the head on them is too big for certain locations, next to the tappet covers for instance they would foul the tappet cover going in and out, you couldn't tell if the screw was cross threaded going in it was so stiff, same coming out, you didn't know if it was dragging all the thread out with it. I advised him to replace them all with the modern Honda equivalent, namely the 8mm headed screws they use today on their engines, I don't like the JIS screws that were fitted as standard, cheeseheaded or putty headed screws we called them, due to them rounding off so often, the new 8mm headed ones are FAR better, you can use an air rathcet on them as well or a speed brace. The head is even smaller than the JIS screw so no fouling, they look ace fitted. He's now replaced all of his with new Honda screws and sent me pics, he'll be posting those pics soon on a thread about the work he's recently done on the bike, watch this space and see if they look ok to you. The cost to do the camover, the generator cover, clutch cover and sprocket over was around £30-40 I believe. Only one was a special order, most are very common bolts.
One last thing, if going for the M8 x 100 bolts to replace the 10 holding the crankcase together buy the M8 thick washers not the standard washers, the standard are too thin for that location.
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I think I might have talked myself into keeping the bolts I have for the crank case halves.
Certainly look at different bolts for the side covers Ken when the photos come up,
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I'm going with Middletons 8mm bolts for my crankcase Ted, I like to know they won't rust and look awful in a few years. I'll also zinc/nickel plate my old ones as well and make a decision if they look really good.
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I'm going with Middletons 8mm bolts for my crankcase Ted, I like to know they won't rust and look awful in a few years. I'll also zinc/nickel plate my old ones as well and make a decision if they look really good.
I could only see set bolts not bolts in M8 now I have looked again I have found M8x100 hex bolt standard pitch £1.64 each plus Vat presumably & delivery.
I might at this stage just replace the top casing bolts as those are the ones you can see - don't like the idea of them being full of water even if mine are SS.
Mine measure as below for the top casing are:-
2 of M8 x100 is that what they call standard pitch?
1 of M8 x 144 (parts book later engine number shows 145)
1 of M6 x 100
1 of M6 x50
1 of M6 x35 ( parts manual shows 32)
Mine are SS hex head with SS washers parts book shows Flange bolts in all descriptions - none listed on Middletons I have plenty of SS washers.?
The M6 & M8's on Middletons list are all Standard Pitch is that the right thread?
They do not appear to show the pitch size as 1.0 OR 1.25 etc.
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They don't show pitch size Ted unless it's non standard as a rule. There is usually at least 5mm of thread unused in a standard Honda tapping, so it's ok to use 150mm in a 145mm hole for instance, use a thicker washer and bed it slowly, just in case, you can always trim it down if it's too long in the end. 35mm for 32mm is what I use.
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6 and 8mm bolts that Middleton sells fit the 500 in all locations. It's only the 10mm and higher bolts that need metric fine. The engine hanger bars for instance, the ones at the back of the engine are threaded metric fine so need metric fine nuts to suit.
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Oh come on Ted,
Whitworth
BSF
BSP
BSB
BSC
GAS
PIPE TAPER
BA
and thats not all
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Not forgetting Chains, Furlong, Rod, Peck & Bushels Bryan.😁😁😁
Not to mention the Gill - I think it is still a legal whisky measure today that defines a shot.
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Yup, but i was just talking thread forms/pitches
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Bryan I was remembering the tables on the back outside page of our school exercise books!
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You had books! What was wrong with slate and chalk(monty python sketch starting!)
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When I say exercise book it was actually a sheet of Papyrus that we wrote on using a crows feather - we could not afford ink so we cut a finger writing with our own blood.
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you were lucky........