Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => Other Bikes => Topic started by: SumpMagnet on September 22, 2023, 06:11:46 PM
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Been struggling off and on to find time to finish my 750F2 ..... and doing a load of stuff to my daily ride....and then, well..I got made an offer I couldn't refuse.
this is basivcally a family heirloom. My father bought it some 45 years ago, slowly brought it back to standard, then it got mothballed for a bit, partially pulled apart, then sort of left. He was busy renovating other folks bikes, and she got a little neglected. I was asked to give it a new home....and had to say yes.
Comes with some issues, needs cosmetics and most seriously...the distributor had been popping out, which was traced to ovalling of the crankcase opening where it sits. I have a spare set of cases, and a 500 head and barrel ( +20...but needs a rebore) Plus an assortment of other bits and pieces. 2 sets of exhausts, electrical goodies....3 boxes full!
So now I got that to play with as well!
For the record, she's a 1959 Triumph 3TA
The 500 top end is a straight swap, which is why I think Dad bought it. Gives a useful increase in performance.
Paint has a number of issues, but from a distance away...it looks pretty. And it's complete. Nearly.
https://i.imgur.com/hHkzd6K.jpg
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That looks a nice bike - I'm sure you'll enjoy the project rebuild
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Timing side mains are not good, primary chain tensioner same, worth more as a stock 350 than with 500 top end.
I would repair original case rather than change.
Slow but nice handling, brakes are yes
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I rode it for a few hundred miles around Wales quite a few years back. Brakes are.... no. 7" SLS. Stop faster if you put your feet down!
Primary chain tensioner is a pretty crude device, but the bottom end had all new bearings and bushings not that many miles ago. The old man is the Triumph specialist, but as I recall, it's roller bearing one side, and plain bushing the other. Hand ream and much engineers blue went into the thing. It's a foreign world to me! Full of strange bolt sizes and spanners
If anyone knows where I could get the case repaired, I would be interested to know. It's the original motor with corect matching numbers, so even if I swap the cases to use it...I was planning on getting the originals repaired. I assume it''s a case of machining it out and putting a sleeve in, or welding up and recutting.
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Yes its a case of machining and sleeving but you would need to strip the case out to do it.
You would need to find an old school engineering shop to do it, i can think of a couple up here in gloucester(ish) but dont know London.
Rebore is relatively easy after you found piston kits
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A nice looking project for those longer winter days👍.
As for the welding, I can 100% recommend a guy called Andy who runs a company called Specialist Welding.is based near Banstead. His number is: 07957 557935. He was recommended to me by SRS Engineering in Sutton, he does all their welding. I took my Triton cylinder head to him that was porous and had been subjected to really poor welding by the guy who built the engine 22 years ago. Andy did a brilliant job. I've now taken the head to Mike at SRS for blending and a surface grind.
Take the cases to Andy and he'll tell you if he can fix them. Call him first though as he does a lot of site based work.
Tell him Dave Ellis with the Dresda Triumph cylinder head sent you!
Good luck👍
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thanks Dave, I'll sound him out and see what he says
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I had a Triumph Twenty One, VRM 102 ETF, it was my first proper motorcycle after Mopeds & Scooters. I loved the clockwork speedometer but my Mum hated the oil leaks lol. That was part of the reason I bought my first Honda.
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I should be working on the Honda....haven;t done much to it for months....but this thing is kind of getting me hooked. If I am not careful I will be getting a flat cap, leather elbow patches and a pipe to poke at people while I tell them the shade of Polychroatic Blue on the petrol tank is all wrong for a 1947 Triumph Wombat when the total loss oil system was brought in after the Boer War.
Bike has had a total stripdown, and I am sorting out some issues with the rolling chassis before I start into the engine.
(https://i.imgur.com/3nu3mHx.jpg)
Found some of the 65 year old tinware wasn't perfect too. All sorts lurking under the paint! Nacelle top was the first thing
(https://i.imgur.com/kce2K9i.jpg)
Holes pulled through and opened up. Welded them up and redrilled. A lot of the holes had been ovalled or slotted to make the thing fit. It's hidden under trim strips, so doesn;t show..but these had broken right through.
(https://i.imgur.com/pCzoqIc.jpg)
Fixed them all and painted it. Stuck with my Dad's choice of paint colour. Ford Cosmos Blue. Similat to the original..and ..well..it's how I remember it.
Front mudguard was next. A patch had been brazed in where the rear stay mounted. Should be a bracket rivetted to the mudguard. There was a bolt, and a horrid lashed up bracket on the inside. No. Not having that!
Ground off the braze and removed the patch. You can see what it was covering.
(https://i.imgur.com/HrLP6OF.jpg)
Chopped out the damaged area and welded a patch in. Needs cleaning up, but it's solid.
(https://i.imgur.com/70CtwjW.jpg)
Have discovered the joy of welding 65 year old tinware. Knowing it's virtually irreplacaeble ... Did see one early front mudguard for sale. Rusty as anything...£95. One soundish one I saw went for £200. Always at the back of your mind when you blow a hole through....you aren;t going to easily find another.
So I practiced on the piece I chopped out to get the settings right, slowed it down and made tiny little stitch welds. No holes. Even in the freezing cold, I had a bit of a sweat on until it was done.
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Most parts are available, either NOS or pattern parts. Buy from the decent specialists like Tricor Andy, Draganfly or Montys Motorcycles and they should be decent quality and fit. Check part numbers for your year, lots of variations that look the same but aren't!
Good info here on the range. https://triumph-tiger-90.com/
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Hi,
Looks like another Trumpet will live to fight another day! Excellent progress so far - ideal Winter project, it says in most adverts. I got the job of doing the engine/box and wheels on a 'Twenty One' but the others involved have yet to complete their bits. As it says in my web article this bike was new in 1959 in Westray - one of our outer North Isles.
http://www.stallard-engineering.co.uk/stories/other/Triumph%2021.htm
Ian
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Nice! I have a slight 'problem' to resolve before I can really crack on with the engine. Namely the distributor mounting hole. The thing was mothballed after it developed a nasty habit of the distributor popping out while running. This apparantly isn't good. The mounting retainer was as tight as it could be ( overtighten, and you ruin the thing... ) and that's the only thing that holds it in.
Diagnosis...an ovalled out hole in the crankcases. Allows the thing to wabble about until it loosens the locking plate and out it pops.
Need to find somewhere to get that seen to. Dad gave me a spare set of cases, but the worn set are the originals, and I would like to preserve that. The spare set also had been blasted at some point....and ALL the cracks, crevices, exposed bolt holes and so on were full of blast medium. Took me days to flush it all out. It needs new rings, as compression is a little low ( well..7:1 as standard isn;t exactly high to start with!) and there is no bore wear to speak of. Even if there is, it's on +20 barrels, so I can do that if needed. He'd also clearly been planning a 500 conversion... in the spares pile I found a 500 head, and some barrels that were still on standard bore, but in need of a rebore.
Probably not going to go that route, but they are there.
Already bought some odds and ends from Monty, needed pushrod oil seals...and he stocks the right ones for an early model. Found lots of ropey suppliers who don't specify model year.
But overall, I am enjoying playing with it.
Just a shame they hadn;t discovered metric fasteners. Or in fact ANY form of standard for threads that they would stick to for the whole bike!
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It does have standard threads, Whitworth, BSF and BSC
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I have a 1960 350 with 500 barrels and a distributor - they didn't use the distributor for more than a couple of years.
There are options to replace/ delete the distributor and put electronic ignition on the crank. (Although I can't currently spot any instructions for that,). Might allow you to find another way to seal an out of shape distributor hole without finding cases.
https://triumph-tiger-90.com/upgrades/
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Been trying to get this sorted to a reasonable level on the cosmetics before the weather turns, and spraying gets impossible.
So, progress has been made. We got the mudguard repaired and cleaned up and painted. Did the tank ( that was a PAIN to strip! So many layers of paint....such poor paint stripper)
Metal wass in really good shape under the paint, with just a couple of tiny dings needing filler. No splits or problems. I found one of hte tank badges has a repair on it, with a corner build up with epoxy and painted silver. Have left it for now, but I might get a set of repro badges. Undecided. The old ones have character.
So....we have:
replaced the wiring loom
Repainted the forks and re-assembled with fresh oil
Painted the headlamp nacelle
repaired and repainted the front mudguard and refitted the cleaned up number plate.
(https://i.imgur.com/08Y9Plq.jpg)
Pretty pleased with the finish I got, just means the poor old 750 has taken a back seat.
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Looks spot on ! Is that Polychromatic Blue? ... seem to remember by brother having a Triumph Tigress 250cc scooter in that colour.
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The original colour should be Polychromatic Blue ... but that is a colour that is hotly disputed.
When Dad initially did the bike, he re-sprayed it with Ford Cosmos Blue. That was as close as he could get buying paint from Halfords across the counter. That is a bit too 'blue' ... so I have followed in the same tradition, and hunted around for a near colour available from the mass market without having paint specially mixed, or paying the ransom RS Paints charge. Especially since hte Old Man re-sprayed his Thunderbird with their Old Gold paint, and it;s the wrong colour. He owned a 1956 T-Bird in that colour, and as soon as the paint hit the metal, he knew it was wrong. So, while their paint is decent quality, it's not necessairly 'right'.
The actual paint I have is a Hyundai colour....It's a little less blue, and I quite like it. Decent etch primer, some filler primer, one hell of a lot of rubbing down...and a few coats of paint plus clear coat. It's all rattle can, but it has come out quite nice and shiny.
edit: You can see the last bit of Cosmos Blue on the bath-tub side piece behind the bike.
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That's starting to look like a decent Triumph Twenty One, mine was that colour aside from the Petrol Tank that I had sprayed in Vauxhall Viva Red colour as it was free whilst a Viva was in the old body shop at the old California Works on Parliament Street, Derby. At that time Vauxhall Luton contracted out the spraying if interior door cards to Dealers to help with production peaks prior to the Aug 1 plate change. I used to see my old 3TA a couple of decades later with that dreadful red tank that then looked pink due to fading.
Great to read your progress.
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Great progress, it's looking like a Trumpet again👍. How did you get on with the welding of the cases for the tensioner and dizzy, did you manage to contact Andy the welder and Mike at SRS?
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Haven't got any engine work done yet. Slowly building up the cash funds for the work.
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Ahh life. Why do you get in the way of enjoyment. Planning on retiring at 60 (3 years to go) so I can spend more time doing what I enjoy!
In between, things have got done, but not as many as I would want. The Triumph engine has been sorted. Took the thing to a local engineering firm. Proper old-school place, and they measured it all up...and basically said....it's fine.
They lookat the the clamp, and remade the clamp (replacements not available) and machined up a proper shouldered pinch bolt. They also cleaned up a few burrs and marks on the distributor body. End result...£30 and it;s in as tight as a tight thing when clamped up. If it doesn;t work...well...the mounts look a lot cleaner than beforeIt's meant to be a stepped mount plate, but mine is flat, so they also turned up a couple of correct spacers to shim it. Rather than a stack of washers....
Anyway...motor is back in the frame.
then I had to buy a whole set of piston rings. For one oil control ring. Broke one trying to fit the barrels. Had proper ring compressor clamps. That weren;t quite small enough. So they slip off. Went old school. Plastic bottle section and masking tape. That worked better. Now have some lightly used spare rings....
Then I hit the next fun job. After fishing out cam followers from the bottom of the crankcase....( they are not held in by anything) Various ways to hold them in place when you turn the barrels right way up to fit. Not all work.....
But, barrels are on. Then you have to bolt them down.
The barrels sit on 8 studs, held in with 5/16 of whitworth's nuts. Or something. The outer poair on each side are nice and easy. Get them down by hand, and you can slip a ring spanner over. Open ender usseless as they are recessed in the fins.
The other 4, by the pushrod tubes, are accessable.....until you tighten them down. Then you cant get the spanner to bite. Why, my Triumph. WHY!!!!
So I made my own tool. Took a slice off a 5/8 socket I had in the junk pile. It alsmost matched the 5/16 Whit nut. Welded on a handle. Then cut and shut it to make it a better fit to the nut. Had to weld some metal up on the inside, and file it back until it was a good fit. Job done. Took enough force to get them all tight. My welding must be improving. The tool has no angle to it ( as my spanner did) plus a thinner 'ring' so it was able to fit hte nut and not foul anything. Result!
(https://i.imgur.com/nldZIpC.jpg)
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You can buy the slim spanner ready made from Triumph specialists like LP Williams, Tricor Andy.
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I feel your pain. I had a similar issue with my Triton. I fitted Morgo barrels with the 12 point stainless nuts. What a pia to tighten those down!
Great progress though and you'll have it running now those fiddly jobs are done. Are you going to strip the head?
I've been watching Dirty Shirt Machining on YouTube, he's only young but a bit of a master when it comes to Triumph motors, what to look for and the best way and materials to use to get them reliable, something Triumph had difficulty with back in the day when the bikes were new!
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You can always buy a tool .... but....where's the fun in that :)
Was also a test of my ability to stick bits of metal together and have them stay. Been practicing with my old gasless MIG, and have been getting a lot better. Could really use a better welder, to get more control. Also, to move to a proper gas setup. The gasless shield blocks your view, so you have to weld almost blind, with just a rough idea where you are, but you lose a lot of detail as to what the weld pool is doing. Makes welding thin sheet tricky, so I do a lot of small stitch welds.
There are many fun jobs still to do.... like fitting the gearbox, selector and clutch, setting up the primary chain adjustor, and I also have to fettle the bathtubs. More bits of unobtanium metal with some cracks and welding needed. Carb is cleaned, and the electrics are all new...so....what could possibly go wrong.
Ahem.
@Laverda Dave ... I'll check out that guy on YT. always good to pick up new tips and info on the mysterious depths of hte British Bike Industry.
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That "special" flat triumph ring spanner only fits thelater unf/unc thread motors not the earlier ones using bsf/bsc threads, for my pre unit with morgo i had to mdify the base stud threads!