Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on June 07, 2024, 12:14:21 PM
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When I rebuilt the carbs on my 400 it worked out fine, runs well, no hanging throttle issues - I used the full Keyster Kit that came with the bike when I bought it from the PO. I know some folks have had issues with Keyster Kit - mine were new boxed, purchased by the PO many years ago.
Fast forward almost three years - my 500 seems to be giving me some unexpected problems - not helped by my superficial knowledge of understanding the carb design arrangement.
A bit of background is worth a mention as they were sent by the PO to Gerben so had quite nice shiney tops & bowls.
On dismantling the carbs I found one of the two bearings in the manifold mounting bracket was half broken presumably when the locking pin had been removed. I replaced the bracket with one sourced from Ken plus a much better shaft from Florence as mine was quite pitted. The four needles were set one groove lower than the centre position so the needle was effectively raised a notch - set slightly richer. One of my needles was bent near the tip - I do not belive it was bent by me but cannot be 100% certain only 99% certain it was not me. I purchased a set of 500 needles & emulsion tubes from DS as the kit was not too expensive. I have fitted the needle clips into the centre position of the five grooves on all four sliders. Carbs only bench sync at the moment.
On first start up the bike ran reasonably well but by the next day I noticed that my petrol pipe that came with my temporary tank kit was sticky on the outside. When I started the 500 the next day it was clearly not running properly on number one carb as the manifold was almost cold, plus the float valve was now leaking. I've binned the crap petrol pipe, removed the carb bowl on number one carb only & cleaned the screw in jet that had a small amount of muck in it. I opened the petrol tap with the bowl off and a bit of muck was washed out as well.
At the moment I am mentally resisting taking the carbs off - as Roo has said I need to take them off and do a proper check on the other three carbs. I'm now resigned to taking them off when I'm in the right head space. I hate having to do things twice.
I fired her up again yesterday and there was some heat on number one exhaust manifold but nothing like the other three. At the moment I have all four carbs set with the side screw 1.5 turns out. After about 5 minutes of engine running with my Stand Fan blowing air over the front of the engine I removed the spark plugs to find 2,3 & 4 all sooty.
I understand the basic principale of the main jet/slider needle - it's very similar to the old SU car designs.
I am not sure when you adjust the Brass coloured side screw what that actually does - is it just essentially for the engine idle mixture?
The other jet that screws into the carb body inside the bowl - the Pilot Jet - is the Brass coloured side screw linked to this internally?
I know we understand what a sooty plug looks like but added the photo to show how mine looked.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53775307933_809e567bb2_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pVWvxB)500 plugs (https://flic.kr/p/2pVWvxB) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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"I am not sure when you adjust the Brass coloured side screw what that actually does - is it just essentially for the engine idle mixture?
The other jet that screws into the carb body inside the bowl - the Pilot Jet - is the Brass coloured side screw linked to this internally?"
The idle circuit, in isolation for this description;- the small jet 40 ? Is connected to the venturi on engine side of slide to feed fuel in concise metered amount for slow running, this is given a gradient response by having an air passage from airbox side of slide into the vertical passage from float bowl to venturi through that 40 jet.
The size of that jet sets the maximum this assembly can flow, then with the external adjustment brass screw, the air passage can be controlled to alter the fuel air ratio and how quickly it gains fuel flow by changing the amount of air is allowed to pass the adjustment screw.
In effect it could be considered a small carburettor (essentially running in parallel to main slide, needle and main jet) but obviously set and fixed after adjustment to give the required fuel air mix at low air volumes in the venturi.
Effect;- if you turn the brass screw fully in, closed, there's nil air going through, the venturi drop in pressure just pulls full fuel as soon as you start the motor.
Too far turned out, there's excess air that's easier for vacuum to pull in rather than lift fuel from the float bowl.
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When you changed the needles you say you changed the emulsion tubes/needle jet in the carb body Ted were these Honda parts or aftermarket parts? Everybody on the US site says that the needle size and taper on "kit" parts are not the same as original and give problems.
The mixture screws on the side of the carbs are interconnected with the pilot jets, i thought there was a diagram in the Honda manual showing what went where but trouble is i dont often look in the book anymore, its all mostly in the dustbin tween me ears mate
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The needles & emulsion tubes were from DS. I still have the old tubes & 3 needles iir.
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Yes but were they pattern or genuine Honda
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They are pattern ones he sells as no Honda ones were listed- as the poor running on number one cylinder has so far been from idling is it not a bit early to suspect the DS parts?
I have also noticed the outside of plug 1 had corrosion through the outer plating so can't be certain that it's not a plug issue as well. The bike was running rich when I did my pre strip down ride with no tick over when warm unless the screw was turned up causing the hanging idle issue. I did not want to put my new plugs in only to blacken them straight away.
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I had a chat with Ken today to gain another perspective on my carb running issues - the first thing he asked me is to confirm what the type number of my carbs were. Ken told me where to look on the right side of the main body for the type number on the main casting.
It turns out that my carbs are 069A - all four of them - apparently they were for the 550 model.
The 500 was fitted with 627B's
Looks like Gerben did one over on the PO, Ken tells me they will work on a 500 but some changes in the Main & Pilot Jet need addressing for it to run right.
If anyone here has fitted 550 carbs on a 500 with the four pipe system & standard air filter system it would be useful to know what jets they used.
One thing for certain is they will have to come off so I can sort them or if a cheap pair came up fit the right carbs.
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Depends which air box you have fitted Ted. If you have a 500 air box you need 500 jets, 100/40, if its a 550 air box, you'll need 38/98 jets. Best to see which jets you have in them at present.
Edit.... Plus the corresponding needles and the air mix screws will be different also. One lot have a hole through them, the other lot have no hole through them.
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They were bought as a 500 four set from Gerben via ebay, at the time everybody was saying he is the best but not so sure now
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Not a worry Bryan. they have cleaned up nicely.
I'm just hoping it will run okay on 550 carbs if I change some of the jetting.
Do you happen to know Bryan how the two types of Carb body differ?
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I dont think they did, i undestood it was different jets for the different airbox covers, would have to spend time with the parts book doing comparisons
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This is my Airbox top cover arrangement.
My pilot Jets are all 40 - iirc the mains are 100.
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(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53776922422_63897aee88_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2pW5MtC)My 500 air box (https://flic.kr/p/2pW5MtC) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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Thats def 500 Ted
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Here is the overview of all oldstyle carb settings for the CB500/550s.
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I'm not sure what the message is here regarding the 069A carb and the 627B differences.
Are they the same carb body but with different Jets with the markings to identify what model a carb is jetted for & made for with slightly different air screw designs - hence the difference in turn settings.
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Yes Ted. The carb bodies are the same, it's the jetting etc that is different.
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Sorry to butt in on this Ted but how critical is the airbox lid to the running of a 550? I don't have a lid yet due to my custom seat design so I'm currently trying to tune it without. My plan is to mould one with a similar sized mesh aperture.
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I have no practical or anecdotal evidence about what effect if any having the lid makes.
On the carb induction side the air filter will give a certain restriction to the air flow into the carbs so there will be a pressure loss across the air filter itself. Although the lid covers the top of the air box the top section with the gauze fitted is not going to be the main cause of additional intake restriction. If there is a consequence it might run marginally leaner at higher rpm.
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Dom, sorry cant remember which 550 you have, the us K0,1,2 use the 500 cover the European F and K3 use a different one that restricts air flow more hence smaller jets
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Dom, sorry cant remember which 550 you have, the us K0,1,2 use the 500 cover the European F and K3 use a different one that restricts air flow more hence smaller jets
F1 Bryan, in the absence of a filter cover and my seat design means I need make one in fibreglass I think, so having no cover is definitely going to cause me set up problems then?
I have discovered a big oversight on my part while assembling my carbs, I had used two open pipes where there should have been link pipe between no2 and no3 carb so they were drawing in air.
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Aside from fuel connections the only other links between carbs 1&2 then 3&4 that I can think of are vent pipes ??
They are unlikely to be able to draw air into the system as they vent to atmosphere anyway to allow fresh fuel into the carb bowls iirc.
Update:- Aside from the obvious flexible connectors over tightening the manifold to cylinder head nuts can mean the O rings will not seal due to bending of the alloy faces or the wrong sized O rings.
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You're right Ted, I initially looked at a YouTube video and they were looped together, remembering that is how mine were when I got my 550 I did the same this evening. But now I see what you are saying about them being vents for the bowls so I'll return them to how I first had them. In trying to solve some issues I'm seeing problems that aren't there😆
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The Emulsion tubes that I removed from my carbs had 5 holes on one side & one on the opposite side.
The two top holes are slightly smaller than the others.
I suspect the Emulsion tubes are replacements fitted by Gerben as they virtually fell out when I removed the main jets.
How many holes were there on the geuine Keihin part for a 500 has anyone here counted them?
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The Emulsion tubes that I removed from my carbs had 5 holes on one side & one on the opposite side.
The two top holes are slightly smaller than the others.
I suspect the Emulsion tubes are replacements fitted by Gerben as they virtually fell out when I removed the main jets.
Gerben just did the right thing to the 069A carbs in front of him. Falling out is not a sign they were not right. Mine also fall out, which makes servicing much easier btw.
How many holes were there on the geuine Keihin part for a 500 has anyone here counted them?
Five on each side and they are all the same size. Very early CB500s may have had different tubes (the source is weak), but I've never encountered them.
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So I have been sold the wrong tubes for my 500 by DS as they were the same - looks as if Gerben use the same supplier.
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So I have been sold the wrong tubes for my 500 by DS as they were the same - looks as if Gerben use the same supplier.
The correct path for ordering is:
1. Establish what exact model bike you have, by comparing the frame- and enginenumbers of yours to those listed in the first few pages of the CB500/550 partslists. Pay attention to the carb identification number in the same page and verify yours has the original rack or not.
2. Find the correct Honda partnumber in the apropiate partslist. They're all here: https://www.honda4fun.com/materiale/documentazione-tecnica
In addition, you may want to consult the overview I've composed.
3. Suppliers of aftermarket parts should clearly indicate which of their parts match which models.
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Forget all of that Delta this is NOT an original bike but built from a garage full of bits as Ted knew when he bought it so non of the comparisons will work
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Provided you can read either 498- or 544cc on the barrel and the number stamped in the carbs you will at least have some sort ;) of a starting point. Slow as well as main jets have their size indicated and even the jet needles have a stamped in number.
Six months ago I have contacted Gerben to ask him if he had seen any difference in the venturis.
As far as I know, the numbers on the bodies only refer to the internal parts such as jets, needles, air screw settings, etc.
As far as I know, the bodies are all identical. I have never been able to detect a difference there.
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My block is stamped 498 cc my Pilot Jets & Main Jets are stamped 40/100 I have solid Brass air screws not the drilled type.
Ive looked at the 500 K1 UK parts book in the link you have provided but can't see a part number for the seperate Emulsion Tube only on the USA model. No one seems to give details of the layout & number of holes in the tube.
I am quite disappointed that DS sells the needle & tube kit BGABC-323-004P as described below for a CB500 K1.
"A direct replacement needle jet, produced by the most highly respected carburettor component manufacturer in Japan, assuring you of the highest quality part which was is no longer available from Honda".
I'm only guessing it's Keyster as they appear to be a Japanese manufacturer.
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The solid air screws are typical for the 069A carbs (see pics). Apart from the very, very early CB500s where the parts concerned had separate partnumbers*, the CB500 NEEDLE SET, JET comes as a set: needle, clip and tube. To be honest, I have no idea how critical the differences are, as far as brassware. Personally I have no experience with aftermarket brassware.
* according to that Japanese JDM Partslist. https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/v37q90p9ptk45u60ml5tr/CB500K0%20JDM%20Manual.pdf?rlkey=hukkwrheiwtw5ri7v2p77c5dc&e=1&dl=0
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I did think there might be copyright/intellectual property issues in producing identical parts that might explain why reproduction parts such as the holes in emulsion tubes differ from the originals.
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Hi Ted
Ken very kindly sorted my old set of carbs out that came with the bike and they came back gleaming with correct new jets fitted and have been on the bike now for 18 months and are still working well, Yes they are running slightly richer but I do believe all 550's do. I am sure Ken will get it sorted we started from scratch ie dwell angle , timing tappets etc then run and balanced of carbs.
Nige.
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Whatever you undertake, realise that the petrol is not the petrol of the 70s. Do not concentrate on the idle, go for driveabilty, in other words: a linear response in acceleration and accept the idle that comes as a consequence.
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Not if it’s above or below what’s required, that doesn’t make sense at all…….
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