Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB350/400 => Topic started by: Mikep328 on September 25, 2024, 07:10:02 AM
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Yesterday I decided to take my 2019 Kawasaki Z900RS Cafe to get an MOT. It had been sitting in the garage for two years with a 1/2 tank of E10 petrol with StaBil added. I did not intend that it sit for two years back in 2022 but it just worked out that way. Of course the battery was totally dead but I hooked up a Lithium boost thingie and hit the start button. It fired immediately and ran as if it had been running yesterday. Because of the low state of the battery, all the warning lights were illuminated - Check Engine light, ABS light, Traction Control light! I was hoping they would reset in the 10 mile ride to the MOT place but they didn't. I figured there was no point in an MOT since all those lights were on but the shop informed me that Motorcycle MOTs did not include consideration of the warning lights, unlike cars, and it passed!
I have used StaBil for many years but this was by far the most extreme "test." My typical use is for 4-6 months of storage. I'm sure other fuel stabilizers work just as well but StaBil is the only one I have any experience with. Again, this was with maybe 2 gallons of two-year old E10 fuel/appropriate amount of StaBil in the tank!
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That is impressive. I am the sort of person who doesn't intend to leave a bike but then forgets and time marches inexorably on and before I know it a half a winter has elapsed. Last year I had to rebuild my carbs yet again due to moisture build up in old ethanol laced fuel. I might try using this Stabil. Is it OK with old engines? I wonder what is in it?
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I've not used it but know friends that have good experience in doing so.
Many things sold are just a load of old tosh, but this one does appear to be based on creditable results.
We looked at it on here before, it seems quite plausible from ingredients that it can honestly achieve what it claims.
Good to hear real ife experience to illustrate this.
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I left my GS1200 with a full tank for 18months without treatment and it fired up straight away, carrying me 160 miles to my next fuel stop with no issues whatsoever! Probably not a recommendation, but that was my experience!
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I now have StaBil in both my bikes
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I left my GS1200 with a full tank for 18months without treatment and it fired up straight away, carrying me 160 miles to my next fuel stop with no issues whatsoever! Probably not a recommendation, but that was my experience!
Likewise my XJ 900 went through 14 winters without issue aside from the usual sticking clutch.
Always started and ran without issue - pre-E5 & E10 fuel always used SUL.
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i have a 1998 CB500 twin that has fuel over 9 years old in it. It still fires up and runs on that! Yes it will be pre ethanol but impressive (a Honda!!)
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I left my GS1200 with a full tank for 18months without treatment and it fired up straight away, carrying me 160 miles to my next fuel stop with no issues whatsoever! Probably not a recommendation, but that was my experience!
Likewise my XJ 900 went through 14 winters without issue aside from the usual sticking clutch.
Always started and ran without issue - pre-E5 & E10 fuel always used SUL.
Aren't the xj and gs pumped fuel application, both of them ? There does appear to be a little more "tolerance" in pumped system to some effects.
Drawing fuel through tiny jets with vacuum on the other hand :) can be more problematic.
Whether pumped delivery to carbs holds any advantage would depend on if it's a loop around system that pretty effectively mixes fuel through that system characteristic.
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Interesting thread, from some years back, in discussion of Sta-bil that at least seems to give something of balance in experience and usage.
https://www.offshoreonly.com/forums/general-q/143437-stabil-whats-really-2.html
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Interesting read Nigel, I used to add Wynns Dry fuel to my XJ900 after the first petrol tank pin holed all along the bottom edges after 5 years .
The second petrol tank was still good for the next 9 years up until I sold it in 2009 after just over 14 years of ownership.
The new petrol tank cost £434.74 in 2000 from Granby's of Ilkeston - it came fully painted with all decals etc ordered by original frame number/colour code.
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51815956376_f3d497f13b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2mWNjAd)1995-2009 (https://flic.kr/p/2mWNjAd) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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Common fault on Yamaha tanks Ted
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Was going to rush out and buy some Sta-bil fuel additive after reading this thread.
That is until I watched this comparison test recently posted over on Access Norton.
https://youtu.be/mRGRWwPC3lA (https://youtu.be/mRGRWwPC3lA)
It's a simple test from a lady that's run a lawn mower repair shop for over 10 years and seems legit...
Any thoughts?
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I just watched the video clip, on face value the Stab-il does not work, hard to argue with her findings.
I do know that adding more neat anti-freeze than recommended to water has an invertion point. The basic mantra when I studied chemistry was, adding a substance to a liquid elevates the boiling point and depresses the freezing point. Different situation here so I digress.
Also some surfactants become less effective if you add too much of the product. A case in point is washing powder, doubling the amount of recommended powder actually reduces the effectiveness of some detergents.
I decided to see if I could reproduce her experiment,sorry I can't be bothered to make a video.
I poured about 25 ml of Stab-il that I bought earlier this year and added about 5 ml of neat water and shook the test tube so it dispersed. The clear pink colour went cloudy as the water appeared to form bit of a mixture , after 5 minutes I saw that the water had indeed seperated to the bottom as per her video, not instant but not good.
So she is right, or is she?
Is it a realistic situation to add neat water if fuel stabalizers are designed to react with Ethanol to prevent it becoming Hygroscopic?
It would have been a more convincing test if using Ethanol instead of water had the same outcome.
My experience with Wynns Dry Fuel was that after 9 years my Yamaha petrol tank was fine.
The last interesting feature is she is not paid or sponsored though clearly you come away with the idea that Stab-il does not work but that Ethanol Shield does - at least on water!
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The closest I have to Ethanol is Methylated Spirits, so I added about 5 ml of Meths to about 20ml of Stab-il it disperses out immediately, no shaking needed.
I don't think I have proves anything except I have too much time on my hands..
Mr Google says the so called Phase Seperation when Ethanol attracts water for E10 - it can hold up to 0.41% water in solution
E10: Can hold up to 0.41% water in solution. E15: Can hold up to 0.85% water in solution.
It does not appear to be linear so E5 will be quite small.
I'm not sure even if water is held in solution in E10 petrol that itself can cause an issue, isn't it when there is too much water that the separtion phase is reached forming a globule at the bottom of you tank.
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I have seen non-stabilized E10 totally clog carbs over winter storage - requiring manual disassembly/cleaning to restore them to operating condition. I have used Stabil for 20 years and had E10 fuel/Stabil in a tank for 2+ years with no issue. Probably any fuel stabilizer will do the job but Stabil is the only brand I have used and since it works, I have no reason to try something else. But I believe that SOME brand of fuel stabilizer should be added for long term storage of ethanol-treated fuel.
FWIW I know that condensation is often said to cause water in fuel over time. I've never had an issue over the years using stabilizer. As I said, vehicles stored for 2+ years started as if running the day prior so clearly there was no water or degradation of the fuel. Re condensation, here is an interesting article:
https://www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm
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Tomorrow we are flying to Mexico where three motorcycles have been sitting since before Covid with Stabil/fuel in the tanks - my '73 Norton Commando (fiberglass tank) a BMW R9T and a my wife's Honda Africa Twin. We'll be there a month; wonder if the bikes will start with no problem or if I'll be working on them for the month to get them to run? ;)
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You really expect a Commando to start?
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Tomorrow we are flying to Mexico where three motorcycles have been sitting since before Covid with Stabil/fuel in the tanks - my '73 Norton Commando (fiberglass tank) a BMW R9T and a my wife's Honda Africa Twin. We'll be there a month; wonder if the bikes will start with no problem or if I'll be working on them for the month to get them to run? ;)
My old Commando normally starts fine after winter lay up, but the original Amal concentrics fitted are as simple as a Suffolk Punch carb and seldom get clogged up.
Lets wait and see how easy the BMW and Honda start...
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I am just remembering the rush of mechanics trying to get away every time one came into the workshop!
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Not that I'm at all defensive about my Commando... :)
...Have to say it's an easy starter and been completely reliable since early teething troubles from not being used for 6 years by previous owner. Smooth, torquey fast and good handling.
Not that I'm expecting the Honda to be any worse, but it is a tough act to match.
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My Matchless g3 is the only bike I have that I don’t have to drain the carb prior to lay up just shove it away for a year it will still start first or second kick. Just have to remember to drain oil from sump before start up. Doesn’t require fresh fuel either!
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I never drained the bowls on my XJ900 either, it always started after a 5 or 6 month lay up.
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I never drained the bowls on my XJ900 either, it always started after a 5 or 6 month lay up.
Was that in the days of full fat non-ethanol fuel, Ted?
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Yep no E5 or E10, always had to free the clutch off by firing her up on the center stand, up a couple of gears holding the clutch in, it always released, rarely had to resort to applying the rear brakes, the inertia if thats the right word did the trick, might have been due to the shaft drive.
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Test has to wait a few days...all three bikes had totally dead batteries so they have to be replaced. Two of the three had trickle chargers - guess they don't work over the time-period involved (?) the other had it's battery disconnected. Probably be next week before I get replacements.
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With new batts all three bikes started immediately, ran fine on the Pre-Covid fuel with the stabilizer added. :)
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Interesting test Mike .... and result.
In discussion we've had before I've thought from looking at the composition it's plausible and seems to offer something in preserving operating properties of the fuel too.
The attached video of water tolerance is clearly doing something with that product too. I'd not dismiss it, but observe that it follows particularly an often given American presentation of simple binary reaction/interaction used to proffer a success view. Whether its as simple as that i don't know. Do we want water absorbed ? Do we also want preservation of the "aromatic" element of fuel that promote easy starting to have been conserved, as stabil appears to do ?
Real experience of starting things like this with known time interval would seem valuable to us. Looks like quite a stern test over that time frame.
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I had 12 months old E5 in my CB350F and it refused to start. I drained everything out, carbs included, and put in fresh E5 and it started first push of the button. As a little test, I put some of the old fuel in a steel tray outside and tried to light it. It wouldn't light with a match so I tried a blowlamp and it wouldn't light at all however hard I tried. That was crappy supermarket fuel (Morrisons), I had even older fuel in the 750 that was fine (BP). Ya pays yer money etc.
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Just be grateful that you are still alive. When you play with petrol, the vapour given off can penetrate your clothing. If the liquid petrol catches it will just burn, but the vapour ignites instantly with a "whoosh". The flame from the vapour shoots up past your face and you gasp in shock, breathing in the flames. Goodnight cruel world.
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When I was 17 yrs of age I spent 3 months in traction at local hospital with a fractured femur (I was the pillion).
In the bed opposite me was a young man who was a mechanic at a local Fina garage. He had been cleaning out the pit floor with Paraffin using a mop & bucket.
Due to a build up of old petrol in the pit an explosive mixture had built up causing a flash fire when he lit up a cigarette whilst still in the pit. He had horrific burns to his face and hands caused by a brief flash of ignited petrol.
Quite a few arsonists have been badly burnt when pouring petrol throgh letter boxes or when setting fire to stolen vehicles.
As has been said it's the vapour that is flammable not really the liquid.
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I get a bit annoyed at internet "experts" that test something in a way that has little to do with its actual use and then make pronouncements based on that. In this case, Stabil (and similar products) is a fuel stabilizer. The TEST of it is simple, can it "stabilize" or "preserve" (or whatever the proper term is) fuel so that it will still function properly after extended storage. With three vehicles sitting with fuel in the tanks for five years (none more than half full) and starting/running with no issue, clearly Stabil does what it is supposed to do - even better than Stabil claims (up to two years). As I have said before, I'm sure other similar products will do the same but Stabil is the only one I have used.
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Just be grateful that you are still alive. When you play with petrol, the vapour given off can penetrate your clothing. If the liquid petrol catches it will just burn, but the vapour ignites instantly with a "whoosh". The flame from the vapour shoots up past your face and you gasp in shock, breathing in the flames. Goodnight cruel world.
It was an egg cup full outside and down wind. I'm hardly going to end up in a fireball I'm not an idiot. It was done simply to prove that it was the fuel at fault . As for people getting slightly annoyed at so called internet experts, it's just an opinion. Everybody is entitled to an opinion right or wrong. So please try not to be annoyed. Moan over.
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After a winter rest, I always have to empty the 'cat wee' from the float bowls on the 400/4 , even when using miller oils ethanol protection /stabiliser. Starts so much easier with fresher fuel in the bowls. I think with traditional carbs the stuff just evaporates and the 'cat wee' is the non volatile portion we are left with. Seems to be quite corrosive as well. My son's modern Yamaha starts up at the first attempt and he doesn't add anything to his fuel.
I have in the past flushed out the carbs with white spirit with a dash of oil and left them sitting with that in over winter. even after draining that out in spring the bike still smells like an old tractor until is burned through a bowl full of fuel.
Regards Dave
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Drained the tank and took most of the fuel out of the carbs on my K3 with pd carbs. Put about a gallon in from a couple of containers I store outside. One lot 4 months old the other lot at least 5 months. Started 2nd kick and ticked over fine after a couple of minutes. Finally getting to love the pds!