Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB350/400 => Topic started by: SeanFD on July 15, 2025, 08:14:36 AM
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It took me 5 years, off and on, to go from this:
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
to:
[attach=3]
The last couple of weeks have been frustrating as the bike seemed determined to stay in the garage. One little problem surfaced after another; it would run one day, and then not start the next; it fell over breaking the tail light lens ....
Finally I got everything sorted and took a short ride up and down the street, then around the block. Everything seemed fine. Got myself properly dressed for a longer ride, and ... the starter was dead!
I checked everything, found nothing wrong, tried the kickstart again, and it started! 🤷♂️ Starter was now working too!!
I started off down the road, slowed and changed down for a junction, and then couldn't engage 2nd gear. And that's how I rode, thankfully not far, home.
So now I can only move between 1st gear and neutral. The clutch engages and disengages with the bike in 1st. But no second gear.
My plan is to check clutch adjustment as a first step, but before I start taking covers off, has anyone any suggestions as to the possible cause of theis latest gremlin!
If it comes to splitting the cases, she's going back on the shelf!
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That’s a lovely looking resto Sean. Seems it is trying your patience a bit but there are always niggles with the newly restored/rebuilt. I would go for selector mech.
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I started off down the road, slowed and changed down for a junction, and then couldn't engage 2nd gear. And that's how I rode, thankfully not far, home.
So now I can only move between 1st gear and neutral. The clutch engages and disengages with the bike in 1st. But no second gear.
I had this issue for a few days and discovered all I had to do was reposition and tighten the gear change lever. ::)
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Finally I got everything sorted and took a short ride up and down the street, then around the block. Everything seemed fine. Got myself properly dressed for a longer ride, and ... the starter was dead!
I checked everything, found nothing wrong, tried the kickstart again, and it started! 🤷♂️ Starter was now working too!!
I'm having this issue intermitantly myself even now, on the list for things next visit to garage. I had it once before, I'm not sure what the mechanic did but the issue was with contact when I pressed the starter button, maybe he just cleaned something for me. Don't panic! ;)
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Oh, the starter is working now!
That's why this has been driving me crazy. One minute things are working, and then not!
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I started off down the road, slowed and changed down for a junction, and then couldn't engage 2nd gear. And that's how I rode, thankfully not far, home.
So now I can only move between 1st gear and neutral. The clutch engages and disengages with the bike in 1st. But no second gear.
I had this issue for a few days and discovered all I had to do was reposition and tighten the gear change lever. ::)
Checking the clutch is actually No 2 on my list. The pedal is No 1; it is too low now - it was hard to get my foot under it to change up before the problem started - so I'll adjust the position and see.
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Ordinarily the clutch .... shouldn't .... affect the gear change mech on bike engines, that's without a very obscure coincidence.
They are, in essence, a pretty crude device. The selection should work regardless of any clutch adjustment.
With it on msinstand, rotate rear wheel back and forth while trying to select and go through ratios. If it's refusing that, then probably next inspection is selector mechanism which I recall is behind the clutch on these ?
It may be something very simple displaced or snagging.
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My 400f doesn't like changing gear or finding neutral when the clutch adjustment is out of spec.
I suggest slackening off both ends of the clutch cable and remove the triangular cover on the clutch cover. Adjust the screw and locknut on the clutch release first, then the cable at that end. Lastly adjust the free play at the lever end.
When you check the gear lever make sure that the dot markings are in the right position on lever and shaft. They can be really hard to see on old parts. Also lubricate the rose joints. Any stiffness affects the gear lever action. 😉
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I agree with going through the gears, without engine running, by turning rear wheel and operating the gear lever by hand. If this doesn't work then the selector will be at fault. My 350, which is a similar design, decided to stay in top gear on a run once. I had to ride all the way home in fifth. Once at home, when I took the clutch cover off, I found that a bolt in the selector had come loose and the selector fork couldn't engage properly. I would start there and see how you get on.
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Most common problem with bad 400 gearchange is the operating lever on wrong spline of gearchange shaft and physically hitting something
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I adjusted the position of the pedal - no difference.
I adjusted the clutch - no difference.
So reluctantly I took the clutch cover off - again – and this is how things are moving, or not, behind the clutch.
https://youtube.com/shorts/EwoXVoCQp5g?feature=share (https://youtube.com/shorts/EwoXVoCQp5g?feature=share)
I am moving between neutral and 1st gear and back again, and then unsuccessfully trying to shift into second.
I guess I'll have to remove the clutch as the next step?
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You need to spin the rear wheel whilst trying to select a gear
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I did; made no difference.
Even tried it with the engine running - before I took the cover off.
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Remove the clutch the try turning both the clutch shaft and rear wheel whilst trying for a gear.
If still no joy look carefully at the detent mechanism and pins plus trying to turn selector drum with staked screw on end.
If still no gears, sorry something is incorrect internaly
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OK, thanks.
I'll try that once I get the clutch off. Trying to find someone with a castellated socket; I'm here with 4 spanners, a screwdriver and a vise grip! ;D
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OK, thanks.
I'll try that once I get the clutch off. Trying to find someone with a castellated socket; I'm here with 4 spanners, a screwdriver and a vise grip! ;D
You need the correct tool to remove the clutch centre nut, it is held on really tight. You'll need to probably use a torque ratchet to get the oomph needed to loosen it and make sure you have bent the tabs back on the lock washer before attempting to undo the nut (and replace the tab washer, not worth the risk of using the old one).
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I've got the clutch off now - had to hire an impact wrench to remove the centre nut!
The only thing that looked amiss in the selector setup was the actuator to the end of the gear shaft; it seemed to have moved outwards and was not meshing with the pins on the drum centre.
With everything off, it looks to me as if the selector drum, when the gearbox is in "neutral" that the hole to align with the drum centre is rotated too far anti-clockwise?
[attach=1]
I can move the drum only about 30º and there is a positive and solid click each time it moves - I replaced the bits on the end of the drum to allow me to rotate it. It will only go anti-clockwise and I've no way of telling if different gears are actually being selected.
What next? The only thing I can think, is reassemble and see f it works!
Not feeling too hopeful here! :(
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You should be able to feel the difference in ratio by turning the rear wheel, it will rotate the centre (clutch) shaft at different speed.
1st would spin that shaft fastest, 6th the slowest.
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It doesn't seem to change; at least not noticeably.
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Have you got the shift mech reassembled ?
If so, with a mark on the outer face to show movement, it should "index" around each time the lever is used. Then obviously return to original position by going back down the ratios.
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Which direction does it move when going up through the gears?
I can only move things anticlockwise, 4-5 "clicks".
That reference hole on the drum doesn't move at all.
I have 2 settings:
1. Rear wheel and shaft turn together - each one turns the other in both directions. As I said earlier, it doesn't feel like it gets easier/harder or /faster/slower as I move through those 5 clicks.
2. Wheel and shaft are separated; each can turn independently.
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It is very difficult to diagnose long distance but from what you are describing i think something is assembled wrong, at leasr you dont have to take any top end stuff off to check
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She ran OK, with noting feeling wrong for a short while, so I would think it is more like something has come adrift or broken.
Anyway, I'll not be taking anything further for now; I have to go home and prepare to finish my odyssey - I still haven't heard if Iran is issuing visas again yet.
So just when I thought I could jump into the water, looks like I'll be sitting on the bank for another while; probably be Xmas before I'm back to try and finish the job.
My general philosophy: It'll be all right in the end. If it's not all right ....!
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OK, so I went out this morning just to reassemble everything and put it away, but of course I couldn't just do that, could I.
I got this video once things were back together.
https://youtube.com/shorts/3N8Lcwp9agM?feature=share (https://youtube.com/shorts/3N8Lcwp9agM?feature=share)
It looks to me like the selector drum has rotated because that locator pin is too far anticlockwise when compared to the only other shot I could find of it on-line.
[attach=1]
With mine the way it is, the actuator has only two lugs to act on.
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I rhink it can only do that with the gearshafts out
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when I get home, I think I have more pics of the assembly. It'll be interesting to see where it was when I put it together.
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Greetings,
So I've finished my wee RTW jaunt, with a rapid blast through Saudi, Kuwait, Iraq, Turkey, Greece, Italy and France.
(belfast2belfastbybike.com (http://belfast2belfastbybike.com) if anyone is interested)
Now with Xmas coming, it's time to think about the annual visit to the old homestead, where my nemesis awaits - deep breath!
To remind anyone who has memory akin to my own, I rebuilt it, rode it for a few kms. Set out on a longer ride and after less than 1 km it wouldn't shift out of 1st gear. Examination and adjustment of everything reasonably accessible - clutch, gear shift mechanism, gear change pedal ... resolved nothing. At the end a comparison of before and after photos suggested that the gear selector drum has rotated!
So the decision was put everything back in place and leave it till .... well, now. :)
The plan is to remove the engine and take the lower case off to see if I can see anything untoward. From memory (very fallible) and the parts fiche, it seems that the only parts I will need for this is a new sump gasket - assuming all is well internally.
Have I got this right? Has anyone any tips to make the task easier?
Stay well all.
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You'll need some hondabond (or similar but not instant gasket) to rejoin the cases along with plenty of clean rags to prevent any of the old gasket from dropping into the engine as you scrape it off.
If it were me and I was disturbing the final drive oil seal I would be replacing that as well, the last thing you want is weeping oil when you put it all back together. Take the lower case off slowly in case any crankshaft bearing shells stick to the crank, don't want to mix those up!
Good luck🤞
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I've just had the same issue, after a 30 mile ride this morning. On the last mile when pulling away from traffic lights it wouldnt go from 1st into 2nd.
Ive done 700+ faultless miles since I rebuilt the engine in the summer of 2024.
There is a sound coming from the gearbox when I put it in 1st, hold the clutch in and spin the wheel. I cant remember if that was there before and is normal. There seems to be too much resistance when its in 1st and I spin the wheel with the clutch held in.
I'm worried that its the worse case and something has gone wrong internally but I'll take the same steps as you and take a look at the gear selector mechanism behind the clutch drum.
Hopefully you update the thread with some good news!
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Just trying to think outside the box, could this be caused by the retainig clip coming off the gear selector fork?
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Just trying to think outside the box, could this be caused by the retainig clip coming off the gear selector fork?
You mean inside the box, Ted? ;)
Which clip are you referring to?
Dolomite: I won't be updating too soon because I'm not going across until mid-Dec. If you've by any chance solved the problem by then, please please post the solution.
Dave: So, gasket oil seal and Hondabond. ✔️ and ✔️ and ✔️ That's No 270 on the parts fiche? 91205-333-005?
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When I rebuilt my 400 there was a clip on the gear selector forks inside the gearbox.
It a few years back iirc there are two shafts with selector forks on each shaft that move the gear dogs. Without the clip the selector fork just moves along the shaft thus failing to engage a gear.
If you drop the sump the clip might make it's way down there.
I might have miss remembered, I lost one of the clips on dismantling. I swept the floor, tried
a big magnet to no avail. A few weeks later I found it on the garage floor a good distance away.
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Anything is possible, as the engine was apart were all the thrust wazhers put back in corect places
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I have just seen this video for assembling of the Honda cb 750 gear change mechanism, this is of course not the Cb400 but explains the principle of operation and might be useful to somebody.
When I assembled my Cb 400 four gear change mechanism I took a lot of photos when I took it apart because I realised it was quite complicated and would be easy to make a mistake.
https://youtu.be/NdYqec2u_4U
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I have just found another video which again is not the CB400 four but does explain nicely the principle operation of the gear change mechanism and I think it shows the cir clip that has been mentioned earlier, again might be useful to someone.
https://youtu.be/Xtghypx8mII
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I had forgotten about this series of videos:
400 Four Engine Rebuild:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR-MiqdHi1w&t=62s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR-MiqdHi1w&t=62s)
I think the retaining pins Ted mentioned are the two he shows right at the beginning.
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As a general guide to fault finding, there's as many sliding gear items as selector forks, obviously ;D
Each of these should move freely with the forks removed. The important bit in contrast though, is that ALL of tbe remaining gears should be fully located on their shaft such that they absolutely cannot move along the shaft. Anything substantial (probably more than 0.5 mm ) for these "fixed" gear items, and you'll likely have thrust washer, circlip etc that's compromised, missing, misplaced etc as a fault.
With the gear set in neutral, there's very little clearance between moving items and stationary gears (for movement along each shaft) that stops the whole thing getting into a mess with potentially two gear ratios part engaged simultaneously.
Of course, the selector forks must have positive and functioning engagement, usually via spigot pin to the selector drum. Also the selector to be not obviously bent such that it can cause out of tolerance position in moving gear item.
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Additionally, the end float of both gear shaft and the selector drum will cause variance of control between the two as gear selection is then a moving target, which it shouldn't be.
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Just realised the clip I was refering to earlier was not on my 400 gearbox.
Its the end clip that holds the pin on a 500 K1 selector fork, its my age I guess.
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I spent a few hours investigating the issue today. Drained the oil, took the clutch casing and clutch drum off and also the sump.
I noticed that the bolt circled in red had become loose enough to allow the disc to have some play. I think this then meant that the shift arm in blue wasn't snug up to the pins. It was catching them and then slipping off. Because the bolt was loose I think it also meant that the part behind the disc wasn't straight like it should have been.
I took the disc off and put the bolt back so I could see what was happening and when I held the arm in place it shifted fine. I added the disc back and tested it again and it felt like it was slipping off the pins again. The arm had some stiffness against the disc when it tried to return flush against the pins. This turned out to be because the gear shift shaft had moved out slightly and was putting some pressure on the arm, I pushed the shaft back and it seems to be fine.
What actually holds the gear shift shaft in place? Is it just the gear shifter? Does anything hold it in place on the clutch side?
One other thing to double check. Does the arm held in place by the yellow bolt help shift it that last little bit? When I removed the arm when testing and I would shift I would need to manually rotate the part behind the disc slightly to get it to engage the gears. This gave me a little panic because I was hearing sounds from the gear box I thought that something had become loose inside.
Lastly does anyone know the toque settings for the red and yellow bolts and also the bolts that hold the clutch springs in place? I will also be putting a bit off loctite on them.
Im not sure why the image isnt showing Ive done [img ]http://[\img ] (without the spaces)
(https://imgbox.com/ZkK3587b)
https://imgbox.com/ZkK3587b
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I'm not immediately , in fine detail, familiar with 400 gearbox components.
In answer to this though "What actually holds the gear shift shaft in place? Is it just the gear shifter? Does anything hold it in place on the clutch side?" The shift drum will be limited for end float to control that lateral movement. Turning it to change gear, it has to remain still while pushing & pulling the selector forks across the gearbox to select the ratios. Insufficient restraint and it will move instead of the forks, making selection poor, possibly bringing a severe clash that will break parts.
Usually it'll be something of circlip, thrust washer or bolted through a bearing that's fully retained in the case, this to give that assured sideways location.
A workshop/ parts schematic should show the relevant components.
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I'm not immediately , in fine detail, familiar with 400 gearbox components.
In answer to this though "What actually holds the gear shift shaft in place? Is it just the gear shifter? Does anything hold it in place on the clutch side?" The shift drum will be limited for end float to control that lateral movement. Turning it to change gear, it has to remain still while pushing & pulling the selector forks across the gearbox to select the ratios. Insufficient restraint and it will move instead of the forks, making selection poor, possibly bringing a severe clash that will break parts.
Usually it'll be something of circlip, thrust washer or bolted through a bearing that's fully retained in the case, this to give that assured sideways location.
A workshop/ parts schematic should show the relevant components.
Its the shaft that goes through the casing and the foot shifter connects to the other end. not the shift drum.
Is it just the foot shifter that holds the shaft in place? I cant see any circlips or anything else on the exploded diagrams.
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Apologies for delay in responding.
Ordinarily, the change mech (lever fork, indent disc/spring etc) don't locare the drum in lateral movement. They are usually just free and "floating" to keep their primary function competent and easy to use in changing gear.
Looking at the schematic, it doesn't show much in the way of any specific means to control that movement.
It appears that its controlled by the bearing in the case being positively located, the shift drum passing through that, then the outer pin mech etc being restricted enough to hold it positively in that bearing.
If you remove fork and disc etc, can you push and pull the drum in and out of casings to any significant degree ?
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This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR-MiqdHi1w&t=234s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vR-MiqdHi1w&t=234s) which I referenced before is a very clear demonstration of re-assembly of the gear selector mechanism.
This one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdYqec2u_4U&t=95s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NdYqec2u_4U&t=95s) at about 13 min, shows on a CB750 how the mechanism fits together and how it operates. The 750 selector mechanism is almost the same as the 400.
The selector drum is held in place by the bearing on the left side, and there is nothing holding the selector.
They might help.
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Good morning all!
I'm back at it now and about to go and uncover the bike.
Dolomite, did those adjustments you made solve the problem?
If not, have you had any success?
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I've been out today looking at my problem. It hasn't changed since I left it!
The gearbox appears to be in the neutral position judging by the neutral light switch (battery removed, but there is continuity). By rocking the selector drum, I can extinguish the light.
I have dismantled the selector mechanism, and it looks, from the right hand side, as if the selector drum is too far anti-clockwise, unless there are different versions of the drum.
The photo shows a comparison between mine and one I saw online.
[attach=1]
Is it possible the drum has sheared???
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In the internet photo is it definitely in neutral?
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Nothing is impossible, there was a semi recent post on the US forum where a 750 had a broken selector drum, but in a lot of years thats the onluy one ive seen or heard of
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In the internet photo is it definitely in neutral?
He had just installed it, pointing out the importance of locating the neutral detent, so I think so.
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Nothing is impossible, there was a semi recent post on the US forum where a 750 had a broken selector drum, but in a lot of years thats the onluy one ive seen or heard of
We'll see tomorrow. I'll let you know.
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Do I need to remove the alternator rotor before splitting the cases, or can I leave it in place?
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Do I need to remove the alternator rotor before splitting the cases, or can I leave it in place?
You can leave it on but might be easier to take it off before splitting cases. It'll have to come off to replace the oil seal before reassembly.
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The bolt can be a bugger to undo but an impact gun will do it, if you have already changed the seal leave it alone
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The problem turned out to be the secondary drive gear bolt; a quick visit to my friendly mechanic with the engine solved that.
The good news: I found the problem!
The bad news; well not really bad, but definitely ANNOYING!
[attach=1]
[attach=2]
Happy it is something so simple; mad that it was something so simple!
Now the quest to find a replacement. Anyone?
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Not familiar with the 400. Had to look it up, comes up as neutral switch. Is it spring loaded? They appear quite rare.
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Part number?
Might have a couple of NOS ones lying around, not sure on price as they weren’t cheap to buy being so hard to find.
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The problem turned out to be the secondary drive gear bolt; a quick visit to my friendly mechanic with the engine solved that.
The good news: I found the problem!
The bad news; well not really bad, but definitely ANNOYING!
Happy it is something so simple; mad that it was something so simple!
Now the quest to find a replacement. Anyone?
You mention a secondary drive gear bolt, is that as well as the neutral switch.
If it was just the neutral switch that is extra annoying as that can be replaced without splitting the engine case.
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Ted, The bolt was just impossible to remove - I had loctited it in place and didn't loosen it before removing the engine from the frame. I went to my local workshop and used his air impact gun to loosen it.
It is indeed the neutral indicator switch. It is spring loaded, so what went wrong I have no idea. Anyone seen this before?
The part number is 35750-333-023. I've found one on eBay for about €80, posted to a friend there, so if you can do me a better deal Oddjob, that'd be great.
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They are very rare to find, take what you can get, it looks like the switch or drum got fitted wrong to bend like that
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80 euros, Jesus that’s dear.
I have 4 of them, 3 are the early version, 35750-333-013 and the last is 35750-333-023. All are still sealed in genuine Honda bags. There seems to be no difference between the 013 and 023 versions, Honda used that to show either slight modifications or a different suppler. In this case I suspect the latter.
Not sure where you are in the world but I suspect not the UK. As such I can’t say how much postage would be offhand but the switch itself would be £35 for the 013 version and £40 for the 023 version. That’s only because I only have one of the later and I can guarantee someone at some point will try and say they only want to fit the one listed in the parts book. The 013 version btw was the one listed for the 350F and afaik the gearbox is identical.
I could charge more of course but I detest people who overcharge and I’m not going down that road. The only reason it’s as expensive as it is is because I had to source them from Holland and the postage was very high or they’d be even cheaper.
Let me know if you want one and I’ll dig the one you select out and see how much postage would be.
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That'd be great.
The CMS website shows the -023 fitting everything from the 200-350-400, while the -013 only covers 200-350.
So I'm going for reverse compatibility, and will be happy with the -013.
I'm in N Ireland; I'll pm my address.
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80 euros, Jesus that’s dear.
I have 4 of them, 3 are the early version, 35750-333-013 and the last is 35750-333-023. All are still sealed in genuine Honda bags. There seems to be no difference between the 013 and 023 versions, Honda used that to show either slight modifications or a different suppler. In this case I suspect the latter.
Not sure where you are in the world but I suspect not the UK. As such I can’t say how much postage would be offhand but the switch itself would be £35 for the 013 version and £40 for the 023 version. That’s only because I only have one of the later and I can guarantee someone at some point will try and say they only want to fit the one listed in the parts book. The 013 version btw was the one listed for the 350F and afaik the gearbox is identical.
I could charge more of course but I detest people who overcharge and I’m not going down that road. The only reason it’s as expensive as it is is because I had to source them from Holland and the postage was very high or they’d be even cheaper.
Let me know if you want one and I’ll dig the one you select out and see how much postage would be.
Ken,
Good to see you are doing well and slowly getting back into action.
Whilst you are in your spares warehouse can you see if you have a complete RC30 in its original Honda parts bag you'd wish to sell me please ;D
Have a good christmas after all you (and your family) have been through.
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Sorry Dave but I had to open the bag the nc30 was in so I could check if it was pristine, it was but now the bags open. Worthless really, might as well bin it.
Have a good xmas as well Dave. Progress is really slow but it’s getting better day by day.
I’ll be in touch soon Sean with a total cost.
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👍
But as I said Ken, no rush; get well first.
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Sorry to highjack, Thank you Ken. Have a great Christmas and a very healthy new year :-)
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I’ll try my best NS. You want to leave the postage until after Xmas Sean, just in case it goes missing in the rush.
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Sure, that's fine.
No rush.
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Good morning all!
I'm back at it now and about to go and uncover the bike.
Dolomite, did those adjustments you made solve the problem?
If not, have you had any success?
Yes, they seem to have fixed the issue. I just need to try to find some torque specs for the bolts and add a little bit of loctite. I thought I dod them tight enough when putting the engine together, I don't think any toque specs were listed in the Haynes manual.
Going to have a look for the specs and order some oil, oil filter and a new sump gasket.
Your issue seems like a bit of a freak one. I wonder why it bent.
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So what was the issue? I must have missed that post.
My Haynes manual has torque values; in chapter 1 they are just below the specifications. I can send you a pic if you don’t find them.
Here’s a pace from the FSM; Haynes gives more for the engine.
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Ah, I meant specifically for the bolts behind the clutch basket.
I'll have another looks through but it I dont think they were listed.
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If you mean the bolts on the gear selector parts, they are all 6mm; I don't think there is a listed torque fro them, but the general torque for those, AFAIK, in 5,8 - 8,7 ft-lbs.
The Common Service Manual says to use a bit of thread locker on the shift drum stopper plate bolt, so maybe add a little of all three.
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Finally got up in the loft Sean and found the bag with the neutral switches in. Let's say £37 inc P&P.
PayPal is fine at PimlottKen@Gmail.com
(https://i.ibb.co/Q7FDppK7/IMG-3750.jpg) (https://ibb.co/ds0mjj5s)
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Thanks Ken, I've sent you that.
Quick update:
I removed the internals of the neutral switch and filled the cavity with Hondabond. After several trials and tribulations – which included finding the countershaft thrust washer in the recess for the kickstarter as I was about to install the latter – I got everything back together and the engine replaced.
Now, I'm happy to report that all 6 gears are there, both up and down. The weather precluded a road test, so that will have to wait till next time.
I am convinced this bike has enjoyed her retirement so much that she is determined to frustrate all my efforts to get her back on the road; I did mention those trials and tribulations ...
The last one I discovered was when replacing the exhaust; I pulled on the rear wheel and thought is moved when it shouldn't have; it feels as if the rear bearings need replacing. But these and the damper bushes are NEW! Like less that 5 miles old!!
Maybe I haven't tightened the bearing retainer?? Next time!
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Is it play at the wheel or at the swing arm bearings?
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At the wheel; the swing arm bushes are new also.
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Could be
1 spindle not tight
2 brg retainer not tighrim loose on spokes
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Spacer missing or not fitted correctly as well. Or even wrong spacers.
Posting switch today Sean.
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Thank you.
Received and safely stored for next visit.