Honda-SOHC
Other Stuff => Misc / Open => Topic started by: Lobo on August 11, 2014, 07:19:13 AM
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Ok. I'm officially confused. Last night went searching for GVH55S on ebay for sales, and to be honest, was surprised at the number of restored (or 'immaculate' 400Fs) with new OEM parts (well, that's how they're described). The thing is... they were mostly in the £3000 - £4000 band, tho' occasionally tipping the scales a little higher.
A lot? Well no according to my spread sheet. I bought my '400 for £1900, and to be honest, am, at the end of its restoration, well above ANY numbers I see on ebay. I acknowledge I do have an almost mint spare exhaust sys & paid for an engine rebuild, but take those out if the equation... and I'm still substantially out of pocket.
So how can anyone who's restored a bike to the standards suggested sell it for the prices I saw last night? It just doesn't add up.
A couple of thoughts.
(1) folks don't mentally keep track of their outgoings... for sure without the spreadsheet I'd never acknowledge my figures. Not by a long chalk. (tip, don't keep a spreadsheet)
(2) my bikes have been an obsession.. no expense spared, and wherever possible I've striven for quality, bought OEM / NOS. They're not quite , but near enough concours.
(3) perhaps, when the time comes, it'd be financially better to break the bikes. (up there with murdering your kids?)
So.... it seems, I'd have been much better off buying an 'expensive' ebay resto, and have been bored.
But regrets, well nope... it's a hobby rather than a business.
Anyways, comments?
Simon
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Yes i totally agree with you it does not add up, a hell of a lot of people lose money on their restorations, i can never understand the mentality of people who undertake a restoration spend fortunes getting it as good as they can only to put it straight up for sale when finished and start looking for the next project usually they loose lots of money, they would make very bad business men
I agree that people loose track of what they have spent and try to kid them selfs that they have not spent lots, a classic example is you buy an item say some HM300 exhausts, stash them away somewhere then a couple of years later they go on a restored bike the mentality is oh i already had them so its not counted on the final costing, on the other hand there are people who have access to cheaper parts, and trade prices on new parts who can save a bit, but i would say on the whole breaking even or loosing out is the norm on restoring these old bikes if they are done properly i am not talking about cheap aftermarket parts or non original make overs.
Having said all that i am well aware that i could stand to loose out on several of my bikes if i ever finish them and sell up, but like all hobbies you have to spend money, and there are a hell of a lot of hobbies where your money once gone is gone with no return, so if you like restoring bikes for the fun then at least you do get some money back , but not usually much unless your name is frank and you double the price of everything ha ha
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I think it's mainly the 400/4 Simon. Everyone you meet from the 70's even non-bikers remember the bike with fondness and this has prompted lots of restorations, some by rose tinted spec types. Then we have DSS reproducing lots of parts that were previously unobtainable so I think that's brought the price down. I have resigned myself to the fact that my 400/4 with NOS genuine exhaust fenders etc will probably be worth considerably less than my 250K0.
Cheers ...AshD
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Ash, i have looked in to this and yes your CB250KO will be worth more for one reason. It was the first bike someone had when the law said you could ride upto a 250 on a L, plate. That is why a KH250 is worth more than some CB750. And a FS1-E.
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It was suggested to me that I over paid for my donor bike, and indeed I (initially) agreed. A more realistic donor figure of £300 was put forward, and indeed the £1600 difference would explain my 'losses'. But, in hindsight, the reason I bought my particular '400 was that the exhaust, seat, mudguards & chainguard were all either excellent / approaching mint & OEM. Assuming you could get all these you're looking at £1000+£400+£400+£100 = £1900.... which I seriously question a £300 donor would have. (These parts are still on the bike, and look factory fresh). And as a bonus the engine was unmolested, switchgear / instruments all good; the tank & side panels were Ruby Red beautiful (but 'wrong' colour for me) .... honestly think I got a fair deal.
Bottom line I remain confused!
But as Pete mentioned... it is rather academic, the pleasure is not in saving a few quid, but rather the huge kick I got out of making the bike as near as damned possible to the day I took ownership of one from the local dealer back in '78.
Regarding the HON 750F K0 that went for £35k recently... I suspect it was possibly worth it - tho' Pete & Ash will know better. The number plate has surely got to be "worth" £5K...and with my (minimal) restoration experience, but ebay browsing knowledge... could quite see £30K racking up in K0 obsessions.
By the way Ash, you reckon its mainly a 400F issue... agreed to a point, but aware my K2 ain't gonna replenish the bank account either....
Hey ho....
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Same with F1 and F2 750,s, these swallow up the money when restoring, but will rarely give your money back when you sell,
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I agree with you there Pete, but the F1's are the best looking of all the SOHC 750's in my eyes! So consequently worth every penny to me ;D
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If you enjoy building a bike, call it a hobby.
If you play golf, it will cost you £1200 per year to be a member of a decent club. Nowadays they'll probably waive the joining fee but a while back that would have been the SE again as a one-off.
Factor in the kit. Stupid "hi-tech" clubs at £100+ each and they don't even make a difference (!)
Biking is cheap!
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Me being a tight wad has paid of both my k1's only owe me around £4000 each
There far from mint there more nice used examples but that's how I like them
Mick
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Quite "By the way Ash, you reckon its mainly a 400F issue... agreed to a point, but aware my K2 ain't gonna replenish the bank account either....Hey ho...."
I reckon with the750 K1, K2 the prices will steadily rise ( I have watched this over the past 5 years). But with the 400/4 it's all about supply and demand and I reckon people loved their 400/4's so much they left them languishing in garages sheds etc, with a view of one day restoring them. Now that repro of the rare parts are being made available, those bikes can be easily restored so there are a lot of them around, and the price will never rise significantly. You see quite a few 400/4's being sold that are literally almost 'out of the crate' but in the past 5 years or so I have never seen a 750 ,500 or CB250 being sold in that state except for a 750K2 in the US once. When you look at the 400/4, Honda had a massive Euro hit with the 400/4 only to replace it with the ugly as sin CB400T, so quite a few people stashed new ones away as a future investment .
Cheers ... AshD
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Nice thoughts but for us want to own one again, others have picked up on this.My mate bought an BSA a10 in the 80s for 30 quid running.Its the likes of me and yourselves that make this scene profitable now but it will die out as the next lot, love boy racer machines and not the raw nude bikes Retro to most of us old gits.I have spent a small fortune on my bike and I don't care as I will never sell it the wife might someday.So I think if you are restoring a classic if money worries you wait until it doesn't.
Like all things time will tell
Cheers
Bitsa
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OK Lads, Here's a question. How many 400/4 were sold in the UK and how many are about now. I keep finding them in peoples sheds, garages, barns and two years ago i found one still in the box.
I have a mate that is a classic car dealer/ restorer and back in the late 80's when it changed from 250cc to 125cc, he went to every bike dealer in this area and bought up all the 250cc. The dealer just could not sell them after the law change.(he did not pay a lot)
He still has all these bikes in boxes in a famous car storage company. What is a KH250 in a box worth? only what someone is willing to pay.
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Nice thoughts but for us want to own one again, others have picked up on this.My mate bought an BSA a10 in the 80s for 30 quid running.Its the likes of me and yourselves that make this scene profitable now but it will die out as the next lot, love boy racer machines and not the raw nude bikes Retro to most of us old gits.I have spent a small fortune on my bike and I don't care as I will never sell it the wife might someday.So I think if you are restoring a classic if money worries you wait until it doesn't.
Like all things time will tell
Cheers
Bitsa
Bitsa, got to disagree with you to a certain extent here (and hopefully this will make you happy)...:-)
I'm 38 and would class myself as a 'youngster' with these bikes. In fact all bar two of my bikes were made before I was born....
My point is I think 'this generation' are starting to come round to this era of bikes, simply because the riding position is useable and enjoyable. I took my TL1000r out last night and it's a COMPLETELY POINTLESS motorcycle to have on Uk roads...fu*king fast but crippling to ride.
Anyway, just my two penneth..I may be wrong and a bit of an oddball...but heh, love is blind...:-)
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Well, it seems pretty much unanimous that (1) its a non-lucrative exercise & (2) you're only in it for the fun. No complaints... I never bought the bikes to sell.
But the point is, I'm AMAZED at how many CB750s, 400Fs are for sale, in supposedly restored conditions. Are there really that many folk, why naively / blindly buy, spend a fortune... and then sell on??? I could accept a couple... but there is just too much choice to accept there are this many 'unfortunate' sellers around.
On ebay recently a ground up restored ... all OEM / NOS CB400F didn't reach its reserve, with best offer @ £2600 or so. Alas, I wouldn't be surprised to hear that the restorer sunk £5K+ by the write up?? ... so all futile it sounds.
Finally, I have to admit... I'm new'ish in my return to bikes. A couple of years back I'd have thought, "5K!... can do it myself for less". Fact is, IF you are after an OEM / factory-fresh type machine, you can't...
.... and this might be why the prices aren't being achieved... folk assume they can do better for their money, and alas, only find out much later into their projects.
Simon
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It is quite trendy to have an old honda in the US especially a cafe racer cb ,there are quite a few younger generation people in the US enjoying the old honda scene, and it seems to be spreading over here, it can be quite a cheap hobby if you avoid the real early models
pete
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Restorations will always be expensive when vendors charge prices like this (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Honda-CB400F-400-Four-400-4-complete-OE-exhaust-New-Old-Stock-/261559692191?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276), I have recently been in a bit of a war of words with a guy selling a Fizzy for £6,495 because he bought all NOS for it, as I pointed out to him most of our bikes are probably worth more sold as parts but he seems to think it is worth every penny because of the price of parts, he runs a bike restoring business and pays others to do all the work which pushed the price up, I asked him if the price of bikes are expensive because the vendors charge a lot for parts or are the prices of parts expensive because they see how much people like him charge for bikes ? He didn't reply. Incidentally I bought my RD when I was 17 for £725 and spent £1100 restoring it and was offered £4000 for it at the Stafford show in 2012, but as it was the bike I passed my test on I couldn't bring myself to sell it, so far the CB400F1 stands me at £1500 including the cost of buying it and as it is a café racer I have loads of spare parts to sell ;)
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Lodo's has started a 'thought provoking thread' here and what he paid for for his 400 fours given the good parts it had wasn't really over the top. The price that's paid for a good 400 four has increased over the last 15 years, I think I paid £1600 for mine back then and it was a low mileage example that wanted for nothing. My original 400 four was stolen and the were quite a few around at the time just sub £1000 but they were a bit rough. What might it sell for now, 3k maybe but it's quite definitely not for sale!
So I think that the price achievable for these bikes and others will increase as the years roll by. Assuming of course the interest in them remains quite strong. It will always remain the case that it will cost more to restore a bike than once completed it would sell for.
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I'm 32 and most of my bikes and my landrover are older than me, as new tech invades modern vehicles those of us young uns who like to swing the spanners and save a few £ doing some of our own maintenance are inevitably going to be drawn to these older bikes. Not to mention the saving in insurance for classics. So long term I think these bikes should hold steady on value. As to restorations, for me I prefer the oily rag school of thought, far cheaper. Compared to smoking which I dont or regular pub drinks even if I did do s full resto, it would work outva cheap passtime. Personally I have never let that side of it bother me too much, I like to ride my bikes, not sell them, appart from the bmws, those I have spent a lot on,mthey failed to match a sohc honda for daily running costs or fun and financialy were money pits ajd that was just for keep em running mentality, not to restore.
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Matthew... I like your thinking, and am jealous that you have access to reliable old Hondas for both fun & function-ability. Don't thrash 'em too hard... they're (very) old girls now!
I've 20 yrs on you.... and the thought of running old UK machines (in my day) would not have pleased my bosses as I regularly reported late for work!
Anyways. ..during my initial hunt for a mint '400F, I noted an ad for a London dealer who described his bike (with clever pics) as, "Immaculately & lovingly restored to a very high standard". At £4000, and with that description, I tubed it across to Elephant & Castle.... the bike was terrible. Yes it had been restored, but using many old parts... grips that were worn, clocks that were faded, a loom with repairs to it.. and much more. I was bloody angry he wasted 3 hrs of my time.
But that's my point... my (incorrect?) view of "lovingly restored" is what Pete & Ash etc would be doing.. whereas many others settle for less, cleverly take dishonest photos, and tell you, "yea, the exhaust is a little dinged there... you WONT get a good one chief; sure the loom is repaired.. but with the seat down you'll never notice; ok, the decals are a bit low.... jeese mate.. you're a fussy sod aren't you?"
And there perhaps is the whole trouble... many of us are restoring these old bikes to a standard that many folk don't want / aren't prepared to pay for - and so have to undersell the bike.
Simon.
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Try running an old landrover, original parts all carry dates on them, this adds massively to the sterssing about oriinality factor when restoring or running one if you are lucky enough to like me accidentally end up with a matching numbers one to start with, my original engine would for instance cost eaily 4 figures to restore and it is stillma good runner.. in fact we pulled it out and installed something newer and less stupidly rare..
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Matthew, I take it you're referring to the 2 litre diesel as being the original one. They were never that good when new, and as you say, parts for it are rare and expensive. If I were you, I'd sell it and use the money for your Hondas, after all, it's a Landrover, people put so many different engines in them, I've got a 2.5NA diesel from an LDV Convoy in my 58 series2, I just need a vehicle that starts and works hard when I'm not on my Honda, and my Landrover will never win any show prizes, every panel is dented or scraped, and I like it like that! Sorry to have gone off topic! :-[
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I restored my 400/4 in 1986 and it was an absolute nightmare then. I remember phoning every Honda dealer almost in the UK to get hold of F2 tank decals because it was a secret Honda part no. only provided to dealers and they were instructed to sell you a tank. Fowlers of Bristol sold me the last set they had and they could not get any more. Then I had to paint the pinstripes myself because nobody sold them. The local bikes for sale at the time all looked very well worn and no internet to find one. The spares price was horrendous and they had already discontinued the seat. I ended up restoring an early model, the one I still own (£100 from a Brit Bike dealer ... 'Just get that Jap Crap out of here !!) because my immaculate yellow F2 was stolen from work. That F2 yellow bike I bought as 'a write off' because it had a small tear (minute) in the seat and a small dent in the tank and a grip scuffed... the cost of the tank and seat was so high from Honda that the insurance company wrote it off and I bought the 'salvage'.
In 1986 David Silvers original infamous advert appeared in MCM and at the same time Honda slashed their exhaust prices so that the 400/4 system was now £100 for all of the major parts but still a rip off price for the clamps etc. I remember to this day opening the package from DS with all of the parts in inc. front & rear fenders/caliper, bar switches, stanchions, tank cap, rims etc. etc. all mega cheap.
The likes of Pete and myself are just obsessed with originality and its an unhealthy (expensive)stance to take. I say just check out that the repro parts are up to scratch and use them on the 400/4 and keep costs down. They are lovely little bikes and need to be enjoyed. Not sure what the DSS repro items are like, I gather they have improved over the past year or so. Or just build a cafe racer and use your imagination. Decently done cafe's seem to command good money when resold plus you can sell off some of the 'standard' bits you don't use to fund the cafe build.
Oh dear must go off to take my K0'itis pill ;D
Cheers ... Ash
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Yep 2.0d. Dent in every panel. But essential on the smallholding as it rinse the hay baler via rear pto. I have 4 sohc Honda bikes to rebuild and probably most of the bits to do them all. Only bits to buy are batteries and tyres. Mind you. The s2 has taken all my Honda Spanner time for the past 5 years or more. Well that and my 4x4 dumper and other oversized toaka toys.