Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB350/400 => Topic started by: Drew400 on February 08, 2015, 05:12:02 PM
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Hi all, especially those of you who like electrics.
I was hoping to attach the battery and turn the engine over a few times on the starter motor (I even have a car battery ready to support the plan). However, I attached the battery, turned the key and nothing happened. So here's what I've done so far (with my rudimentary knowledge of wiring diagrams and multi-tester usage):
1. Battery is relatively new, recently charged and showing 12+volts on the tester.
2. The starter solenoid is live at the point where it's connected to the battery.
3. I removed the block connected to the ignition key under the headstock: every terminal is dead.
4. I have jammed my tester into every wire (especially red ones) and terminal block that I can locate and they're all dead.
5. There's a 2-pin male block connector with red wires as part of my new wiring loom, but no female connector as far as I can tell (you can see it on the photo below on the left above the shiny starter motor cover). I can't see an equivalent on my old loom. What should this be connected to?
I've probably missed something obvious and will be delighted if you can point that out to me!
Thank you,
D.
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Maybe a silly question, but is the fusebox plugged in securely? Are the fuses, especially the 15 amp main fuse, check them with a meter, not just look at them!
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All questions, silly or otherwise, appreciated.
I will test the fuses properly as you suggest. That said, they were working before I started stripping the bike.
I did separate the block connected to the fuses as part of my 'jamming the tester in every wire' process and could find no voltage in any of the connectors.
Thank you again,
D.
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that all looks very shiny, as in, powder coated type shiny. Do you have a) a good earth and b) preferably an abundance of them? I'd buzz out the earth strap as the very first thing you do. A complete absence of power means that the fundamental circuit hasn't been made.
I quite like electrical faults, as long as I'm in the mood; its like a jigsaw puzzle, therapeutic!
Cheers
ATG
Paul
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Love electrics the only problem and no use to you is I could fix it quicker than write about it sorry
Check fuses,check earths follow the 12v up the line reds and blacks when you get 12v at the main switch your half way there.If I recall right the blacks have 12v only when ign is on so get the 12v up to the switch
All the best Bitsa
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See if there is power on one of the wires in the mystery block and if so does the other go to the ignition switch If yes to both something should go in there to connect the two
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Hi all, much appreciated.
Not sure what buzz out means, but I'm pretty sure the earth is good and all checkable of course.
Mystery block is dead, like everything else... I'm surprised it's a mystery to you guys too (I wondered if it's a USA spec fitting or some such (e.g. a side stand or clutch cut-out switch, maybe?)). Question for DSS perhaps. Thinking about it, the mystery block is male and so I'd expect the power to be in the (missing) female part (as usual, eh guys?!!!!!... ladies, that's a compliment!).
Nothing has been powder-coated, but I take your point about anything getting in the way of a good connection.... nothing that a wire brushing can't sort out, eh?
If I can't sort this out soon, I'll seek local expert advice (which I guess rules you out Bitsa!).
Cheers all,
D.
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Hi Drew,
I've just been through this a few weeks ago with my 400/4 so here's what I would check:
- battery earth must be good to frame and needs paint removing if its freshly powder coated
- you need +12V on the red lead at the ignition switch cable block, this comes directly from the battery via the stater solenoid through a 2-pin red/red-white connector, through the fuse box and then to the ignition switch.
- if you don't get +12V here then you need to trace back via the fuse box (15A fuse) then the 2 pin connector and finally the starter solenoid connection; you must have continuity along this red wire to the ignition switch - if not then it will never go!
- once you have +12V here, then connect the 6-pin block back up to the ignition switch and when you turn the key, your neutral and Oil pressure light should come on.
It sounds like the 2-pin connector that you mentioned is the most likely culprit. This needs connecting to the starter solenoid. On mine,there was a small sub-loom with an eyelet on the solenoid end and the female part of the 2-pin connector on the other end, just 2 wires, red and red/white - without this, there is no +12V feed from the battery to anywhere other than the solenoid.
Good hunting!!
Frisky
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Hi Drew,
Just scanned your photo again and it looks like you are missing a fuse or two and that sub-loom I spoke about in my earlier post.
This seems like such a simple fix, but if you ain't used to electrics then it can seem very daunting.
PM me with a moby number and I'll talk you throughout if you want - it should be easy!!
Frisky
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Hi Drew,
Agree with Frisky..
The 400F has 3 fuses; Main 15A plus Head & Tail lamps. (7A each)
I think you might have mislaid (!) the female half of the 2 pin block connector .... the mini-loom that connects the large +ve battery post of the starter solenoid to the main bike loom.... ie that hanging loose 2 pin connector.
If it is not in place, and you've lost it, simply take a foot of (red / 15A wire) and to each end crimp / solder female (I think) QUALITY spade connectors. Then fold it in half, carefully cut away (midpoint) 3/4" of insulation & inset / solder / solidly crimp this into an eye connector .... & secure onto the battery post of the starter solenoid. Plug those two (female?) spades into your free-floating block connector - and ensure those two female spades are absolutely insulated from possibly touching anything else. (This block connector should by the way, secure into a frame clip below the starter solenoid area.)
The wiring diagram a great help & gratefully stolen from Bodd; the pic my 400F which shows that block connector going up to the solenoid / battery. (follow the RH (black sheathed) wire from the starter solenoid down)
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Hi all, much appreciated.
Not sure what buzz out means, but I'm pretty sure the earth is good and all checkable of course.
Mystery block is dead, like everything else... I'm surprised it's a mystery to you guys too (I wondered if it's a USA spec fitting or some such (e.g. a side stand or clutch cut-out switch, maybe?)). Question for DSS perhaps. Thinking about it, the mystery block is male and so I'd expect the power to be in the (missing) female part (as usual, eh guys?!!!!!... ladies, that's a compliment!).
Nothing has been powder-coated, but I take your point about anything getting in the way of a good connection.... nothing that a wire brushing can't sort out, eh?
If I can't sort this out soon, I'll seek local expert advice (which I guess rules you out Bitsa!).
Cheers all,
D.
;D ;D ;D Taken as a complement Drew
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Thanks again all,
I think you might have nailed it. Unfortunately, I won't be able to look again until next weekend. PM option much appreciated Frisky.
Cheers,
D.
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Hello again,
Having sourced a solenoid-to-loom cable from Steve at 400fourbits, I have today connected everything back up with mixed results:
1. When I switch on the ignition there are no warning lights.
2. The front pilot light, tail light and rear brake lights work.
3. The dip/main beam and indicators don't work.
4. The engine turns over on the starter motor and there are sparks at the plugs.
In the next few days I will have a look inside the headlight, etc. to see if I am missing some connections. There's definitely a few missing connections in the bulk grouping near the headstock under the tank. I assume that one or two of them will be for the horn that I haven't yet put back on the bike.
My only question for now: there is a green wire coming from the new DSS loom with a loop connector on the end. It emerges from the main loom behind the carbs and is about 8' long. I guess it's designed to go to earth (frame) but I'm reluctant to earth things if I'm unsure! Does anyone know what this wire should be connected to, please?
Thank you,
D.
p.s. Sorry I haven't attached a photo... (temporary, I hope) camera problem!
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Green is earth on our bikes. Having a ring on it confirms this. Some bikes had an earth on the rectifier, this seems positioned in the right place for that.
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Bolts on at a coil mount but make sure there is no paint/powdercoat where it connects or you can melt the loom, same goes for where the main earth goes to an engine mount/frame
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Thank you both.
Cheers,
D.
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Thanks to a new fuse box and original indicator relay, it's all working and looks somewhat neater!
However, after turning the engine on the starter for maybe a second or so, it stopped working properly. There is some grinding type noise coming from the solenoid, that you can feel if holding it, and it seems like the starter motor may be turning, but only slowly.
Has my solenoid failed? Is there a way of checking (I have a very basic knowledge of how to use my multimeter)? All other electrics appear to still be working fine.
Thank you all,
D.
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Is the battery fully charged?
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...great question hairy git! And here was I launching into complicated stuff....
Drew... assuming your battery is ok, it sounds like your relay is 'chattering' - possibly through (a) low voltage & Hairy Git's solution, or (b) poor connections, or (c) simply failing.
(1) To check the starter switch side of the circuit, take a jumper wire directly from the Red/ yellow terminal of the solenoid to the battery +ve. This bypasses the stater switch & wiring; ie if the starter spins nicely now it implies a problem there. Beware, the moment you connect these two terminals the starter should leap into life.
(2) to check the earthing side of the solenoid circuit take a jumper wire from the solenoid small post (black?) directly to the battery -ve. Press the starter button. If it's cured the problem the fault lies in the earthing side, which includes the clutch switch.
(3) to check the solenoid, (ie if the all the above don't fettle it), then short the two big posts of the starter solenoid. Expect BIGGUM sparks - use a hefty screwdriver. Basically you'll be connecting the battery directly to the starter motor through your screwdriver... which'll be carrying 80A or so. Exciting... and don't have petrol etc abouts you.
Good luck... I'm with hairygits idea though.
Simon
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Thank you both,
Job for tomorrow. I think the battery's OK but it's on charge just in case. Hope that's the answer before I launch into all that complicated stuff!
Cheers,
D.
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Make sure the earth connection on the starter motor is secure, if it isn't it'll try to get a return path via the gearbox.
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Thanks Mike, will do.
Cheers, D.
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And make sure the earth connection cable to frame/engine has no paint and tight
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Thanks Bryan,
I'm satisfied with the earth as I had turned over the engine with the starter a few times in recent weeks before yesterday's problem emerged.
Battery showing fully charged overnight has not sorted it out.
If I don't get around to looking at it this afternoon, I'll do so during the week and report back.
Cheers, D.
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Drew
My 750 did that after checking all and sunder Trig advised me to strip the motor and give it a good clean might be the same for you but it cured mine.
Cheers
Bitsa
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Hi Bitsa,
When you say motor, I hope you mean starter motor!
Cheers,
D.
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Drew
Relax yes the starter motor mate, mine was full of crud and while apart put new brushes in
Cheers
Bitsa
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Hi Bitsa,
When you say motor, I hope you mean starter motor!
Cheers,
D.
Drew, it is easy to test the starter motor. Remove it and place the body of the motor on the negative of your car battery and touch the lead on the positive. If it does not spin freely, then strip, clean with carb cleaner and a little spray with WD40. Make sure all the groves are scraped out with a toothpick.
If it is spinning freely, then move on to the solenoid.
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Thanks guys,
Something to look forward to next weekend I suspect.
Cheers,
D.