DOH! Ignition point system memory failure

[Mikep328]

Along with some wiring clean-up I'm doing, I had decided to remove the E-ignition and reinstall the OEM points ignition.  Yeah, I know, sounds stupid but that's a different discussion...

I was installing the OEM points system back in the bike after cleaning/lubing the advance mechanism.  I got everything all set up/static timed but couldn't get it to start - an occasional backfire.  Fooled around a bit, racking the points plate back/forth to see if that would make any difference but no help.   I pulled a couple of plugs and, with them connected/sitting on the head, there was a good blue/white spark.    I was getting annoyed/frustrated and I learned long ago that when that happens, to STOP!

So I walked back home (1/2 mil from garage) figuring I'd look at it again tomorrow.  I was drinking a G&T when I literally slapped my palm against my forehead...JEEZ!!!

  I had completely forgotten that although the advance unit can only mount in one position, the points cam can mount in either the correct position or 180 out.  When I had removed the points cam to clean/lube I didn't pay attention to ensuring I put it back as it was.  I didn't have the energy to walk back to the bike, especially after the 2nd G&T but I'm quite confident that reversing the position of the points cam tomorrow will resolve the issue. 

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

Unless you dismantled the advancer unit it only fits one way as there is a locating peg. IIRC the blue wire should be on the points on your left for 1/4. The yellow on the right for coils 2/3.

Convention is to have the left coil as blue for 1/4, so yellow would be the right coil 2/3.

Easy done I had my plug leads wrongly connected in my 400 so it ran almost for 100 miles on two cylinders with lots of poping & banging!

Reading your post in detail sounds like you must have taken the springs off - in that case you are right.
I have since cleaned my base plate and removed the Hex screws for JIS ones. Ken advised me it's too easy to strip a thread in the base plate with the Hex heads.

.500 ponts plate by Macabe Thiele, on Flickr

[K2-K6]

If you've put the points cam in 180 out, then you'll not be the first, or last to do that. Easily done.

Easy to check too, just swap the two wires from coils to points over with each other to functionally check that error, if it starts like that it will confirm the error, showing you need to dismantle and swap the cam and wires back over to make it std setup.

[Mikep328]

"I have since cleaned my base plate and removed the Hex screws for JIS ones"

I removed all the previous owner-installed hex head screws (literally every fitting on the engine) last year, replacing them with the JIS OEM type screws. 


Thanks for the quick-check tip K2, I'll make that check first thing tommorow!

[Johnny4428]

Nothing like a G & T to clear the head Mike! 😂

[taysidedragon]

Allen screws/socket head set screws. 😁👍

[Mikep328]

Yeah, I put them on all my Japanese bikes bike in the day...now I'm taking them off and putting JIS screws back in their place.  And, back in the day I installed E-ignitions as soon as they became available and now I replaced the DSS E-ignition with OEM points.  Go figure...

[Johnny4428]

I did the same Mike with the screws, never liked the look of the Allen head screws on the 550, kept the e/ignition don’t have a problem with that. Still got the points plate if i need to fall back to old school!

[TrickyMicky]

They say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I always thought that to see a nice smooth alloy casing adorned with those protruding socket head bolts gave it the appearance of something from a piece of WW1 military equipment.  BUT!!! back in the day, I have also used up my full quota of obscenities trying to remove the original screws with a conventional Philips screwdriver, nobody seemed to have heard about JIS then!  Earlier this year I was playing with a CL160, and I have to admit that when I replaced the clutch cover I compromised and obtained some rather neat little button head socket screws.

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

Back in the 1960s when I had to remove the clutch cover to separate the clutch plates as my 250 Dream, it had stood in a shed for a couple of years I had inherited chewed screw heads.

At great expense I purchased an all steel T shaped handled JIS driver from Fred Palin's the local dealer. You could hammer the end into the screws and apply great force via the T handle. I had to drill the heads off 3 or four of the screws.

Hence why I am happy to use SS Allen key headed screws on side covers but not in places where they can fill up with water. I  always blamed the quality of early Japanese alloy.

[ka-ja]

Stainless pan-head allen screws don't look too bad, and they tend not to chew up.

[Rozabikes Tim]

At great expense I purchased an all steel T shaped handled JIS driver from Fred Palin's the local dealer. You could hammer the end into the screws and apply great force via the T handle. I had to drill the heads off 3 or four of the screws.

Palins, a blast from the past Ted. There was Bob Minions too. Still there last time I knew but Palins not the case. Also Samways, who again were still about but more bicycles stuff and smaller scooters? Samways for the highways was the slogan as I recall...

More local to me at the time in Duffield was Bill Lomas in Milford. Ex racer and his son Mick was no slouch on a bike.

[Mikep328]

I reversed the wires as K2 suggested and it ran perfectly.  I then switched the points cam around and put the wires back to normal.  One issue is that with the point plate at the correct 1-4 firing position, the 2-3 subplate has to be moved to it's absolute max (advance) position for the 2-3 timing to be correct and it's just barely able to achieve that. 

[Johnny4428]

I had the same issue Mike, ended up replacing the points. Quite sure it was due to the heel of the points being worn!

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

Likewise, I suspect the problem is also more pronounced with none genuine points as well as heel wear.
I ended up changing my baseplate for my original 400 one as I fitted electronic ignition on the 400.

Once my 500 is run in I'm thinking of switching it to electronic.