550 K1 : up-shifting issues (mostly low RPMs)

[Nurse Julie]

Haha, yes Erny, you will not understand me because I am remembering another bike where the lever touched the casing 🙄🙄🙄 Are you sure there is not a dot there, it may be so small an not even look like a dot but it must be there somewhere. I cannot increase size if your photos to see properly though.

[K2-K6]

Your current picture shows the gear lever one or two splines further up than the original position,  that will definitely make a difference.

[Erny]

Just to be sure, this is how it is now, so you think I should move it even lower?

[K2-K6]

I thought the pictures where the other way round.

As long as you set it so that it's as close to your foot as possible but without it being constantly moved,  then that's the best you can get it.

It should be able to rest so that you don't drive it with any constant pressure on the lever,  but you need the most travel you can get with your foot to complete the gearchange action.

[Erny]

After loooong time (yes, more than 3 years!) I'd like to update this thread.

Up-shifting issues is still there, getting a bit worse now.

Meanwhile I was testing and testing.. my findings:
- only pb is in up-shifting (down-shifting seems to be normal to me, w/o any fail)
- issue is present ONLY when using clutch
- while up-shifting w/o clutch (short trottle release and quick lever moving up), it works perfect, smooth, even in lower RPMs
- when starting up from zero (for example when standing on traffic lights), while fluently releasing clutch as normal, bike starts to pull, but when clutch becomes fully engaged bike "kicks" (not sure how to describe it better, as English is not my native language...). This was present since I got the bike but I attributed it to hardened rubbers in rear wheel sproket carrier. Now having those rubbers new, I know it is something in engine/clutch.

Considering all above, I suspect it is clutch responsible for those issues, so I need to check it (winter project)

I tried to search quickly forum, did not find similar problem described - do you have some idea what is wrong?
Or, at least, recommend what I should be prepared prior opening engine (clutch cover)? I already have new gasket ready...

Thanks

[Oddjob]

I would suggest checking the gear change mechanism behind the clutch basket, there are 2 hooks which catch the pins in the end of the gear selector drum, one pulls the pins and one pushes them. I suspect the pull one could be rounded off or be bent out of alignment. Also check the pins for any signs of damage just in case.

The kick we would probably describe as clutch snatch, this could be anything from a distorted clutch disc, a worm drive fault in the sprocket cover or even a broken clutch push rod, you’ll need to check everything as you take it apart. I’d also suggest checking the clutch basket to see if the large drive gear on the back has started to come loose or even if the internal damper rubbers are perished, see if you can find any movement in the gear whilst holding the basket firmly.

[Erny]

Thanks, Ken, will check that

[Erny]

After some time, I finally opened cluch cover (was first one opening it, BTW). Note:  engine now has 19k miles from new
Winter was simply too cold to to motivate me doing it in cold garage, moreover I was lazy

Back to point - I tried to make few videos from my findings, please comment advice what is/can be wrong with regards to my up-shifting problem and clutch snatch/kick:

1. Clutch basket has serious axial play, I measured approx 0.7mm https://youtube.com/shorts/_LvZtXY1b3Y?feature=share and https://youtube.com/watch?v=o-TgZ4Vp3Ms&feature=share
2. Hooks on gear change mechanism seems to me Ok, see photos
3. Gear mechanism (wheel on shift drum stop?) has significant play but only in one direction, see https://youtube.com/shorts/Y626xFgk51w?feature=share - is that OK/normal?
4. Large drive gear is moving vs clutch basket, seems internal dumer rubbers are shot (can this cause clutch snatch/kick?) https://youtube.com/shorts/W4neSdbf_I4?feature=share

Other findings:
- clutch plates looks as new (friction ones has 2.68mm), no mechanical wear visible
- clutch collar and clutch basket bushing looks OK to me, but basket has some play (~0.3mm at the edge when trying to move left-right, up-down)

As I have shims from Ken, I can to fix axial play of basket.
Shall I replace damper rubbers too? If so, where to get them? What about shift drum stop wheel?

Any other ideas what I can check/do else?

My priority is to fix up-shifting issue..

Thanks

[Oddjob]

The damping rubbers inside the basket look to be shot to me Erny. How do the towers look, where the tangs of the clutch plate sit are they still flat or are they showing ridges all up and down the towers.

Not sure on the gear selector wheel question, I'll need to compare with some of mine to see if mine do the same, never really looked at that before TBH.

I'd suggest looking for a replacement basket, new if possible. Or one that's got no play if not. Ask the seller to check.

Do the axial play when the new basket arrives.

I may have a 550 basket (not 500, they look the same but aren't) but it's the distance that kills it.

Hooks look ok. Have you checked the pins they engage with, might be a broken one.

[Sesman]

The clutch has non serviceable Cush rubbers. Now I never new that!

[Erny]

The damping rubbers inside the basket look to be shot to me Erny. How do the towers look, where the tangs of the clutch plate sit are they still flat or are they showing ridges all up and down the towers.

Not sure on the gear selector wheel question, I'll need to compare with some of mine to see if mine do the same, never really looked at that before TBH.

I'd suggest looking for a replacement basket, new if possible. Or one that's got no play if not. Ask the seller to check.

Do the axial play when the new basket arrives.

I may have a 550 basket (not 500, they look the same but aren't) but it's the distance that kills it.

Hooks look ok. Have you checked the pins they engage with, might be a broken one.

As for the basket - It is 550 one, I'll do detailed inspection today again, except dampers play, to me clutch really looks OK.
As for dampers - my fried was replacing these dampers on his 650 SOHC engine (shall have similar ones, I guess), he drilled rivets out, one guy made rubbers (from some plastic material) for him and then he used bolts to close it. And it is working well (racing engine).

Main question is if such axial play (0.7mm) could cause my up-shifting issues? Or that gear selector wheel ...

Need to inspect pins too that bolt hooks are engaging but I do not expect issue as up-shifting issue is on all gears and shifting works smooth w/o using clutch, will report anyway.

[Erny]

With regards to basket axial play - just found that it is linked to collar length vs basket length - it is quite big to me (but maybe normal?). Only way to reduce it is to put shim under collar shoulder (between collar and basket), but Honda manual does not say a word about it, just mentions shims behind snap ring..

Any thoughts?

Video - I'm holding collar pushed firmly against engine - this is axial free play of basket (~0.7mm)

https://youtube.com/shorts/kOtujX2WB-I?feature=share

[Erny]

Just to give you the update on this

Since last post I ordered few parts:
- shift drum stopper, neutral stopper and stopper cam plate replaced by new ones
- new clutch springs
- basket filed
- basket play adjusted (thanks to Oddjob's shim set!)
- assembled, new oil, filter etc

I did not do anything with dampers in clutch basket - I'll keep that for later (winter job, highly likely engine to be opened anyway for primary chain replacement at least)

First ride : up-shifting issue is still there, but I feel it less happening / reduced.

When testing shifting mechanism before assembly clutch and cover (with new replaced parts) I did this video to show the issue that I feel during shifting - when up-shifting, I usually cannot change gear unless I turn gearbox. Down-shift is always w/o issue. It is clearly visible in the video that when up-shifting, movement of gear drum is "stuck" in the midway and moves more when I turn gear (clutch basket shaft). This is exactly what I'm referring as my up-shifting issue.
https://youtube.com/shorts/G-AaCvEzcqE?feature=share

Question is if this is normal (so no more issue) or problem is in the gearbox itself? Maybe experts here (Bryan, Graham, Oddjob..) can comment?

[Bryanj]

To engage gears with bike at stanstil and engine not running you need to rotate at least one shaft, maybe both, so the fact it baulks on changing on the bench is a "normal" occurance

[Erny]

Thanks Bryan for this confirmation. Hope story is over now