Ten years to go until electric...

[MCTID]

Some great comments on here....all have some validity, but here's my twopennyworth (or should it be 2KW's worth).

Given the recent monumental Government Cock Ups of recent years - Smart Meters which don't work, about turns on Diesel Vehicles, moving Vehicle Taxation on line and losing £100M revenue in the following year, Covid, Mass Testing, Lockdown policies changing with the wind/ tides/ sunrise and sunset etc etc etc, all I can say is that whatever route we go down the Government MUST not have anything whatsoever to do with it.

It would be far better to hold a competition between the inmates of all Lunatic Asylums in the UK, and select a panel of 10 of the craziest people from them, and then let them formulate a plan for how this country manages how we go forward with EV's.

Not as daft as you might think.....as I guarantee that 10 of the craziest people in the UK would probably come up with a better plan than ALL of the politicians in the HOC and ALL those politicians sleeping in the HOL !

[MrDavo]

I thought the same when I read the plans to replace road fuel duty with road pricing to cover the shortfall when we all go electric.

As with the Congestion Charge plans for Greater Manchester, and plans to limit care home fees, if the Government announce it will definitely happen at some unspecified time in the future, you can guarantee it definitely won’t happen.

By the way I have a prediction that one day I will be run over by an electric car I didn’t hear coming. They should all be made to have the equivalent of a lolly  stick  in bicycle spokes to make an artificial noise.

[K2-K6]

"By the way I have a prediction that one day I will be run over by an electric car I didn’t hear coming. They should all be made to have the equivalent of a lolly  stick  in bicycle spokes to make an artificial noise."

Something of a repeat in ways,  my father worked with an older guy who'd driven trolley busses in reading before they'd been replaced with diesel, and runovers of pedestrians where given the name of "silent death" for the above circumstances.

Which also brings up one way to reduce, in metropolis polution, and requiring no on vehicle storage, trolley busses for all significant urban working routes would make alot of sense.

Speaking of the political decision making the wrong choices. Visiting Crich the last time for bike meet,  I rode the tramway on one of them that would have operated Wimbledon to Hampton Court (near to where I live) and didn't even know that a line had existed there. If we as a country hadn't thrown away so much of our railed infrastructure there probably wouldn't be so many private vehicles around now. What great irony.

[MCTID]

Shouldn't laugh at Mr Davo's comments but on the day that the modern Trams came into service in Manchester, a pedestrian was run over and killed....the same happened on the first day the modern Croydon Trams ran.

I lived and worked in Manchester for many years and the Public Transport Service was so poor that EVERYBODY had Cars or Motorbikes....if you wanted to get to work - either on time - or at all !

When I went to work in London for LU and started to go everywhere by Tube, Bus, Tram or Train it was like being 'liberated'.......I could go anywhere, anytime and I never used my car apart from the commute to the Railway Station......I certainly never used it to go into the City - even though I worked there.

You only have to look at the massive expansion of the Trams in our major cities to see how sensible they are, and no doubt their future will be key in reducing Carbon Emissions and urban pollution.

K2-K6....when you work on the Operational Railway you soon learn to have eyes and ears in the back of your head as those 200 Tonne Trains travelling at 70MPH don't stop.....and certainly not when a 15 stone bloke gets in the way ! When the Bombardier Electrostar Trains first came into service, they were also known as the 'Silent Death' !

Lastly...who remembers that grand scheme to close Motorways late at night, and using huge convoys of large Hovercraft to shift goods all over the country when most of us were asleep ?

[cliff7]

About 3 million cars on the road when I was born. Now over 30 million!

[Lobo]

I think the thread is slightly misleading as it seems (to me) that we’re assuming ICE cars will be banned from 2030. This is not the case, rather you won’t be able to buy a new one from that date. So, presumably, you could buy an ICE in Dec 2029, and expect legislations / infrastructures to support it for at least 10 years. (?)
That would take us up to 2040, and after this date one would hope fuel would be still available to support classic vehicles with the appropriate approvals. (That would satisfy most of us on this forum 😂)

I think latest legislation has now mandated EVs to include ‘noise’ to aid pedestrians up to urban speeds. Our 2yo i3’s (virtual 🙁) Handbook refers noise generation as a forthcoming fit. (Ie not option)

The BMW i8 (more of a concept car) provides selectable V8 etc noise generation ... within! Guess that’s for the dinosaurs 😂. (But why wouldn’t ya just buy a V8??). I’ll be honest, I don’t get noisy cars, and don’t get me started Harleys & their bloody din. To accelerate from standstill to motorway speeds in one big push / in complete silence is however, impressive.

Comments have been made about the stupidity of lumping around small ICE Range Extenders, and Hybrids.
(1) it is unfair to expect technology to provide us with the perfect replacement in one iteration. The early EVs had 60mile ranges (or so) due battery technology, and to meet strict Californian laws on the definition of an EV, whilst satisfying those with range anxiety, BMW chose to option a small included ICE generator with minimal fuel tank. This 650cc REX (Range Extender) was never intended for daily use, but more as redundancy. It stayed as an option through to the 94Ah battery.
Recently BMW have dropped the REX as the latest battery (120Ah) range is considered sufficient.

(2) Hybrids kinda don’t make sense as all the motive force ultimately comes from the fuel tank. And yet Toyota’s RAV 4 Hybrid quotes efficiency as something like 4.5 L / 100km...versus their pure ICE variant quoting 7L/100km. So... the technology makes sense. (I guess it’s because you can run the ICE at max efficiency most of the time?)

An interesting thread... thanks.

Disclaimer! I’m no BMW fan, there are a lot of good EVs out there. But... I was swayed by its carbon-fibre / composite build, its REX, and the fact that it was designed and built as an EV from day #1. It’s impressed me, the engineering is genuinely superb.

[royhall]

The BMW I8 is a fantastic looking car and the tech in there is unbelievable. But at £115,000 it bloody well should be. Not really an everyman car nor the answer to anything green. Due to the vast quantity of greenhouse emissions involved in making a standard new car never mind the battery problems of an EV it's been proved that the cleanest car you will ever drive is the one you have now. The emissions from your present car will never match the massive emissions of building a new car and recycling your old one. Good stunt to frighten the population into buying new cars on mass though. This whole 2030 thing is a poorly thought out hodge podge yet again. The biggest economic change in the countries history hits in 6 weeks perhaps we should get through that first before the next scheme.

[ST1100]

(1) it is unfair to expect technology to provide us with the perfect replacement in one iteration.
<snip>
(2) Hybrids kinda don’t make sense as all the motive force ultimately comes from the fuel tank.

So why is the flow-cell technology still suppressed then? (likely lobbying... )
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_battery
We could use/adapt existing infrastructure (gas stations, plants, tank storage...) easily, we are used to handle "potential harmful liquids" due petrol/diesel, drivers wouldn't need to change behavior (drive up to the pump, replace tank content with replenished solutions, be back on the road within 5 minutes...), 50~80ltr filling could carry you +800km and more (instead of hauling a battery arrays weighting about a ton...)

[AshimotoK0]

Fascinating story in the link below. I know somebody who has one in his barn totally unrestored .. he was a supplier of key componets at the start of the project. BTW ..persevere with it until after the intro ..it's not all in Greek and they do interview the original UK design guys.

Click on 'Sorry watch on Vimeo' message and enter password 8000


password  8000

[Trigger]

Never trust Greeks with car manufacturing, i remember the Pony 

[Warthog1959]

The long way up with Charlie Boorman and Ewan McGregor reveals loads about ebikes and ecars I’m only on episode 3 but the 13,000 mile trip from the the southern top of Argentina to LA isn’t going to be easy, but what a massive learning curve for the manufacturers. The support vehicles are electric 4 x 4’s and the bikes are electric Harley Davidsons. There are many difficulties, but in a harsh environment. Sorry if this is already mentioned, hasn’t had time to read it all.

[Lobo]

Wow Ash, you certainly dig up the most interesting stuff. One notable point was the billions of $ spent ‘protecting’ / ensuring oil supplies .... and the fact that this significant cost is never seen at the pump as gets lumped in with National Security.

Roy, can’t disagree with your point wrt current car being the green’ist. But... it ain’t a practical comment - like us, cars wear out! And the BMW i8, to my knowledge is not a serious offering, but rather a concept / toy-for-the-rich car.

ST1100 - I can’t answer that, I’m so bloody jaded with “fake news” that I honestly don’t know what to believe anymore. (genuinely). You say this... and 3 posts later someone else will chip in with his views on the safest / cheapest / kindest to Mother Earth  ... wrt battery type. It’s all politics - you gravitate to what you want to believe.
My only thought / answer, is that, in this overly commercialised world, no manufacturer, given the stakes, is going to invest massive outlay in risky technology - whether it be commercial, safety, lead time, infrastructure issues .. whatever.

What I can comment though, is based on owning & driving both ICE & EVs. One is undoubtedly the way forward, and the other, well, triumph over adversity. Oh, and btw, I was economical with the truth on the EV servicing costs... I forgot to mention replacement wiper blades 😂.

[AshimotoK0]

Never trust Greeks with car manufacturing, i remember the Pony 

So glad you enjoyed it Graham. Maybe this clip is more to your taste 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6VJ6_4yCkw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zWauVX9QyY

I gleaned this from the man I know who supplied parts in the UK for the original car.

“We supplied all the contactors for the car and the control system by today’s standards was to say the least a bit primitive. It had 48V batteries and its speed was regulated by first of all, batteries being in parallel = 12V, then two in parallel in series with two in parallel = 24V, then all batteries in series  = 48V. In between each voltage stage the motor fields were switched from parallel to series giving a total of 6 speeds. Each stage was switched by our changeover contactor.
 
The vehicles undoing, apart from its cost, was of course the good old lead acid battery – massive weight with limited capacity and consequent short range. This shortcoming was compounded by the fact that the car used lorry batteries rather than traction batteries. Automobile and lorry batteries are unsuitable for deep discharges and of course electric cars deep discharge their batteries consistently and battery life was thus limited”.

[ST1100]

One might also wonder about the real motives they killed the EV1 over on 2002...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

BTW is it predicted that the costs of charging an EV will soon be noticeable higher then filling a tank with conventional fuel...

[Athame57]

The vehicles undoing, apart from its cost, was of course the good old lead acid battery – massive weight with limited capacity and consequent short range. This shortcoming was compounded by the fact that the car used lorry batteries rather than traction batteries. Automobile and lorry batteries are unsuitable for deep discharges and of course electric cars deep discharge their batteries consistently and battery life was thus limited”.

Oh why can't they just use lithium batteries like they do in my pocket camera, they last miles longer than the usual batteries!