Electronic ignition

[deltarider]

[...] looking at the one in the kit, it looks pretty  decent BUT I don't know it's voltage spec., 

The kit has a 600V one like shown in the first pic below. In mine I fitted the somewhat smaller 400V one, a MKT B32523 (blue in the second pic) as it was easier to fit size wise.

[AshimotoK0]

Phil I will design & make  PCB with a dual circuit on it, tracked to take either the small transistor package or the larger 'BU' one and some SMD (surface mount) parts i.e. resistors and diodes and you can have as freebie..  as my 'guinea pig' 


This is the schematic of the Pirhana ignition BTW and turns out it used BU941Z ignition transistors  .

[K2-K6]

Ash, Sparkrite were another make that switched electronically from points instigation to "convert" systems. Whether there's anything interesting in that product I'm not sure.
I've one of these on an old points distributor V8 that still works well (1980s fitment) and has a toggle switch to put the system into or out of use without changing components.

A question, one of the principal changes I can see in advantage for electronic systems is in keeping a constant "dwell" regardless of crankshaft speed, do these system still switch both up and down on points timing or hand over dwell function to electronic?

[Oddjob]

Oh god, they're building a death ray now.

[AshimotoK0]

Ash, Sparkrite were another make that switched electronically from points instigation to "convert" systems. Whether there's anything interesting in that product I'm not sure.
I've one of these on an old points distributor V8 that still works well (1980s fitment) and has a toggle switch to put the system into or out of use without changing components.

A question, one of the principal changes I can see in advantage for electronic systems is in keeping a constant "dwell" regardless of crankshaft speed, do these system still switch both up and down on points timing or hand over dwell function to electronic?

On the one we are discussing here, the points are retained plus the condenser so it replicates the old 'Kettering' system really but the load is not switched by the points but a semiconductor. One thing on the ones which retain the points though is to still pass a smallish current through the points, which stops them developing a corrosive (insulating) film because of the electronic cleaning action of the tiny sparks created by the low current.

I have a capacitance discharge and inductive discharge version of the Sparkrite ignitions in my store cupboard at work (with the little toggle switch to switch back to conventional). They were intended for my MG Midget, which I sold last year. i must do a 'tear-down' as our American friends say  ..... There are loads of design ideas out there to create multiple spark Cdi's etc but once you introduce a micro-controller you are vastly increasing the complexity and potential for failures or 'lock-ups' in a DIY system. To be honest there is nothing wrong with the standard Honda circuit, particularly for the low mileages done on classics. But a simple circuit like Phil and Deltarider (and I presume 'Hondaman' ) are suggesting makes sense due to the high costs of OEM points & condensers.

Me I am just a geek, anorak, collector-of-shiny-parts, nerd, rivet-counter, mad-scientist, terrorist  or whatever you wanna chuck at me .lol  keep it coming Ken 

[royhall]

As the chromer will testify, not all your collected parts are shiny.

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[Sesman]

Thanks Ash. Do you intend to employ the heat sink or the aluminium  box casing I’ll be purchasing?

Back to the condenser issue. I think it may be preferable to use the PCB mounted capacitor rather than the original. Though if my original,is serviceable I’ll leave it in place, but disconnected.

Does that concur with your plans?

[AshimotoK0]

Thanks Ash. Do you intend to employ the heat sink or the aluminium  box casing I’ll be purchasing?

Back to the condenser issue. I think it may be preferable to use the PCB mounted capacitor rather than the original. Though if my original,is serviceable I’ll leave it in place, but disconnected.

Does that concur with your plans?

You can fit to either a heatsink or an alloy box. you will need insulating washer kits on the transistors though ...which I will supply you with 

[Sesman]

Sound. Thanks.

[AshimotoK0]

As the chromer will testify, not all your collected parts are shiny.

Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk

Well since I switched to Prestige they are Roy    Aaron is off my list now sadly

[deltarider]

Ok, I'm here to learn.
Let's select the CB400F, which in standard config. revs up to 10.000 rpm, and then let's assume you are a specialist and have tuned your bike so far, it will now rev up to 12.000 rpm.
So let's imagine you are comfortably cruising down some countryroad, at 12.000 rpm, minding your own business. You even have time to do some calculation.
12.000 rpm = 200 rpm/sec, meaning the damned thing, with its double distributorless/wasted spark ignition, fires 200 times a second. So... correct me if I'm wrong, for each revolution there's 1 sec:200= 5ms or 5000 μs time for a complete firing sequens, right?
Now, let's have another look at what the Dutch engineer putting the Velleman to the test, has found (see pic below). BTW, it's only been a few years that I have discovered that test, which also was about other ignitions like the Accuspark, Lumination and the 123. The rise time of the Velleman is pretty short with 25 μs. Interpreting that graph, am I right to conclude that - fighting the back EMF and all - the coil is nonetheless fully saturated in a little over 50 μs? Meaning the rest of the time, is in theory available for discharging/sparking? Taking into account a duty cycle of 51-55%, what more could you want? BTW, note that the Velleman can fire up to 500Hz!
Now this test was carried out using a Bosch supercoil. Back then they were 3Ω IIRC.
I myself run 3Ω coils. I don't know why I ever bought them, but let's not go there now.
The point is... I cannot for the world see which EI - with no matter what fancy names - can offer me more, given the baseline, I want to maintain my breakerpoints, which I'm famliar with and which, ever since I mounted my transistorized ignition, see a very modest current (I measure 6V), just enough to stay clean.
Please correct me, if I have made a wrong assumption somewhere.
If someone with more knowledge than me, sees room for improvement, I'm all ears. Was I right to fit the somewhat smaller 400v MKT B32523 capacitors or should I obediently have followed the original scheme and have the 630V capacitors? In other words, what is the consequence of my choice?
I can recommend the location I've put my EI in. In all those years. the unit has not moved a mm. I guess that protruding little screw helps in this respect. I was surprised to find so much space behind the cover. The box I used was a diecast Hammond 10 X 5 X 2,5cm, IIRC, but - caution - that one was a very, very tight fit to squeeze the two prints in, even after shorting the power transistor's three legs and having them – the transisors – bend over as far as possible. One of these days I'll have a look with my cheap little endoscopic camera and see if there's even some more room behind that cover for a slightly bigger box. As said, I've abandoned the heatfins, which are an exaggeration IMO and have used the bottom and the lid of the alu box to let the power transistors dissipate their heat.

[Johnwebley]

   my own preference is EI,because of no moving parts,

  Boyer uses magnets,rotating near the pole of the coils,

  and a later purchase for my RD yam, made by Vape,uses the "Hall" effect,( I think).this is because the cam is  corroded so badly as to be like a cheese grater,as is made of unobtainium.

https://www.vape.eu/en/yamaha-125-rdx-engine-1e7
 

BTW, this thread has caused me to buy a Beginners Guide to Electronics book,

 never to late to learn.

[Sesman]

Deltarider.

Simply out of interest, have you come across an economical way to create a contactless trigger solution, not that you see any benefit of course.

[allankelly1]

   my own preference is EI,because of no moving parts,

  Boyer uses magnets,rotating near the pole of the coils,

  and a later purchase for my RD yam, made by Vape,uses the "Hall" effect,( I think).this is because the cam is  corroded so badly as to be like a cheese grater,as is made of unobtainium.

https://www.vape.eu/en/yamaha-125-rdx-engine-1e7
 

BTW, this thread has caused me to buy a Beginners Guide to Electronics book,

 never to late to learn.

Hi John

Got to say love the Vape system and fitted this to my RD350LC too

Will never look back as it replaced both the original charge system and original ignition cdi and coils with a modern electronic set up that is well proven

Plus flywheel is half the weight of the original that places less stress on the crank and make the engine more free revving

Also got full Boyer system on the CB400F

Again well proven system and like the the idea of no mechanical moving parts other than a magnetic trigger plus cdi and coils that runs faultless and if I do break down I have full  recovery


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[AshimotoK0]

Deltarider  (sorry I don't know your first name  my bad)  ... the 'transistor switch' type ignition like the Velleman kit switches from the points so the transistor switches for the same time as the conventional system and with it's 0.2uF capacitor storing the energy from the coil I would imagine the performance to be the same as the points type ignition. Personally,  I would retain the 630v capacitor .. Velleman have sold a lot of those kits and probably chose the higher voltage device (which is more expensive) for increased reliability.

I agree that a Hall-effect pointless system is to be preferred but we are talking about DIY type systems here similar to the Hondaman system, where if you get an electronics failure, you can simply switch back to standard. people will chine in " i am perfectly happy with the original Honda system' and I would agree.... as long as you fit Denso/Tec/Hitachi parts, possibly even Daiichi if they are the ones made in Japan.

My friend  (has a sprint CB500K1) and two of his friends in York bought these fancy pant's systems, which cost a fortune but have been given to me to attempt to fix as they have all failed in service.

You are probably looking at a picture below  of around £2.5k's worth of scrap.... they all went out and cut their losses and fitted Dyna systems, which I gather have performed OK.

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