Electric bikes discussion.

[K2-K6]

It's a fairly short article, but does illustrate just how much of a challenge it is to match combustion fuels in numbers that attempt to operate in the same performance field https://www.crash.net/motogp/feature/1018665/1/triumph-electric-power-let-s-not-kid-ourselves

In an ideal situation these developments and consideration would have happened 20~30 years ago, in which case decisions wouldn't be in such a forced state now and with more evolved solutions to accomplish differences in end user profile.

I've put the race link here as I believe it offers more open comparison of raw capabilities in direct numbers than alot of the consumer facing fluff that's put out currently. 

[SteveD CB500K0]

Shame those websites are so difficult to read, what with pop-ups, pop-downs, sliders and auto-start video ads.

The actual screen area assigned to text that you can actually read is tiny.

I have given up completely on my local news websites.


Many years ago I was invited by Triumph to complete a questionnaire about electric bikes. They wanted to know what an existing Triumph owner would want in an electric bike.

If I remember, mine were:
100 mph performance (I don’t ever go faster than that nowadays)
200 mile range (I very rarely do more than 150 miles)
200kg

Tin hat ready. Awaiting incoming .


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[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

Interesting article, when we went from Steam Trains to Electric as a young boy I lost all interest in Trains & Trainspotting. I've been on a few steam trains since then - enjoyed the sound, smoke  & mechanical marvels etc - nostalgia is a real emotion.

I feel the same way about electric cars & bikes -  as exiting as a dish washer.

[Lobo]

Ted; have you actually ridden an electric m’cycle? I haven’t, but I’d do believe it’d give you more excitement than you can handle… Hearsay for sure, but my m’cycling buddy was recently telling me of a ‘friend-of-a-friend’ thrown off his electric charge due his mis-controlling the acceleration, I honestly believe this as owner of an EV (‘housewife’s shopping’) car which does 0-60 in 7 secs, and regarded as unremarkable in the EV world. (BMW i3)

As for steam loco, I recently bought one!

A ‘00’ Hornby Live Steam Mallard - unused (as yet) and in its box from 2005. Literally awesome for me; that a genuine steam loco can be made this small. For those interested, the rails supply 17v / 7A to a heated tank in the tender, which then pipes steam to the loco, where it is then super heated and fed to the pistons. Control is via electrical pulses, and includes reverse. Easy to control if happy to be a mile short or long of the station platform 😂

(Full disclosure- I haven’t even a train set. Just ‘needed’ this 😀

[SteveD CB500K0]

7A through the wheels

It’s a wonder they don’t get welded to the track.


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[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

I climbed all over the full sized Mallard when she was in Derby Loco Works for a repaint I think it was on the works annual open day weekend circa 1962.

I have no doubt electric cars & bikes are very fast on acceleration - would I rather be on a  a Steam Locomotive doing 80 mph or an Electric Train at 120 mph. Steam every time.

[K2-K6]

Shame those websites are so difficult to read, what with pop-ups, pop-downs, sliders and auto-start video ads.

The actual screen area assigned to text that you can actually read is tiny.

I have given up completely on my local news websites.


Many years ago I was invited by Triumph to complete a questionnaire about electric bikes. They wanted to know what an existing Triumph owner would want in an electric bike.

If I remember, mine were:
100 mph performance (I don’t ever go faster than that nowadays)
200 mile range (I very rarely do more than 150 miles)
200kg

Tin hat ready. Awaiting incoming .


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Yes you're right Steve about that site. I've read it for years as it generally stays current, but ever more junk litter all over the place.

The range thing I certainly agree with, it's just not particularly good and why I think this scenario with ducati working to produce a pinnacle product (matched against their acknowledged pinnacle of motoGP) offers such a reasonable view of where the capabilities are rather than the smokescreen of product promotion that just will not address this aspect in reality. 
So many electric vehicles reviews start with "there's instant torque from nothing" then some idiot shouting "whaoooooo, that's incredible" while accelerating 
They (the industry as a whole)  need to deal with reality of competent ownership for people that are going to stump up the money and "wear" the horrendous depreciation to not be a match for combustion vehicles, especially in motorcycles, to be credible.

[K2-K6]

Interesting article, when we went from Steam Trains to Electric as a young boy I lost all interest in Trains & Trainspotting. I've been on a few steam trains since then - enjoyed the sound, smoke  & mechanical marvels etc - nostalgia is a real emotion.

I feel the same way about electric cars & bikes -  as exiting as a dish washer.

Its certainly interesting that which we find fits our requirements in technical/aesthetic measures from life influences.

My son is lamenting the withdrawal of diesel electric HST train units as his favourite. Only travelled on them briefly but formed quite a place in his appreciation for design, sound, pace etc.
I've a part to play in that when he was very young I'd take him in pushchair to sit on a little old riveted footbridge over mainline through wimbledon, many hours spent waiting for "just another train" before we went home. Just occasionally we'd get a class 66 diesel hauling agregate around london, waiting on the side there for clearance before spooling up from standstill to move, we could stand right above it as it went under our feet, made quite an impressive experience obviously 

[Lobo]

My personal findings wrt EVs are simply the insurmountable, and often wildly incorrect pre-conceptions, coupled with the inexplicable expectations of various performance criteria (range, ‘refuelling’ times, short term depreciation) versus ICE counterparts. This industry is woefully in its infancy, and allowances must be made and expected, surely? When a newspaper article is published wrt EVs, you just KNOW the readership comments will be GENERALLY uninformed and massively negative, and those comments, always written by folk who have never actually owned / driven / operated one. You can GUARANTEE ‘milk float’ will be in there, plus the “fact” that every EV catches fire at least once in its life 😂.
Conversely, actual owners, will GENERALLY say that their expectations have been far exceeded and that ICEs are a thing of the past for them.

It boils down to circumstances I guess; ie your government and incentives, recharge infrastructure, what daily mileage you do, off street parking versus home, solar panels, reliable sunshine, electrical tariffs…  the list goes on. Consequently it’s perhaps unfair to universally criticise? Whatever we feel though, electric powered vehicles (battery / fuel cell / whatever) are coming, and will replace the ICE of that I’m personally sure. I’m also bloody sure that they won’t be cheaper to run as thems above us will have their fingers in the tills at all times, so I indeed accept the savings argument as a myth.

The most obvious bit of logic to me though, is WHY would you want 2000 moving parts when you can have 20? Nostalgia plays a big part for certain, but then we’re only nostalgic when we’re driving our horse and carts, steam trains, ICEs - and not having to deal with the smelly horse poo, hot oil, and grimy clearing out of smoke boxes at the end of stupidly short service cycles… let alone the time & £s expense of it all.

An interesting YouTube below by someone whose taken a great deal of time and investigation wrt CURRENT ownership costs wrt an EV vs ICE Mini. It may surprise you?

Alrighty… Tin hat on 😂.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKxruQ8XFX4

[Oddjob]

"Throws rock at Lobo, just to see if he is wearing his tin hat"

"Ouch"

"nope, he isn't"

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

The NSU RO80 had way fewer parts than a reciprocating engine as did the rotary engined Norton. Didn't make them a seller or more reliable  & it bankrupted NSU.

To be fair the development of EV's has been rushed compared to ICE development. There is no standard battery voltage even basic stuff like radial or axial flux motors & windings are still in major development.

It's like the home video recorder markets  of  VHS v Betamax v Phillips 1900 etc.

Oddly enough the only electric car I like is the early 2018/9 BMW i3 with the range extender option. Seems such a simple idea having what is effectively an on board battery charger powered by a 650cc petrol engine. Sadly they ditched the range extender.

Knowing the issues of some hybrid batteries failing leading to a worthless relatively new car it's battery life rather than range that makes the idea of a EV a no go unless you can afford to lease from new.
I suspect private vehicle  ownership will shrink not expand as the costs climb - probably what the government wants as it tries to make us use public transport.

[Laverdaroo]

Ted; have you actually ridden an electric m’cycle? I haven’t, but I’d do believe it’d give you more excitement than you can handle… Hearsay for sure, but my m’cycling buddy was recently telling me of a ‘friend-of-a-friend’ thrown off his electric charge due his mis-controlling the acceleration, I honestly believe this as owner of an EV (‘housewife’s shopping’) car which does 0-60 in 7 secs, and regarded as unremarkable in the EV world. (BMW i3)

As for steam loco, I recently bought one!

A ‘00’ Hornby Live Steam Mallard - unused (as yet) and in its box from 2005. Literally awesome for me; that a genuine steam loco can be made this small. For those interested, the rails supply 17v / 7A to a heated tank in the tender, which then pipes steam to the loco, where it is then super heated and fed to the pistons. Control is via electrical pulses, and includes reverse. Easy to control if happy to be a mile short or long of the station platform

(Full disclosure- I haven’t even a train set. Just ‘needed’ this

Man o man, I want that, what a fab distraction toy!

Was it horrendously expensive?


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[andy120t]

In the video the guy says that , whilst the EV is more expensive looking at overall costs / per month,  that the actual difference isn't all that much....bu t his figures are
Petrol  412 pounds pcm
EV 522 pounds pcm
...which I would class as quite a difference. (at about 5.17 in the video).

[taysidedragon]

I'm not totally against electric vehicles, it's just that they don't excite me and the initial cost and low range put me off.
Until they cost the same to buy as an ICE and the range / refuel issues are resolved I won't consider getting one.

I frequently drive my car on long journeys,  up to 500 miles in a day, and or to destinations where there are literally zero charging points. I'm talking remote steading on a Scottish island, where even the mains electricity is dodgy. My bike rides can often be 250/300 miles in a day if the weather is good. (Got to make the most of the good days!) I do not want to be suffering from range worries, especially miles from civilization. 😟

I love the sound of an ICE going through the gears, electric just doesn't have that. The electric Audis on the Dakar rally or the MotoE bikes are prime examples. A petrol engine racing through the gears sounds fantastic, makes your hairs stand on end, the electric vehicles just sound like a Scalectrix car, not exciting at all.

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

The video cost analysis was in 2020 so it does not reflect the increase coat of electricity or the  price fall  in the used EV  market.
 
I drive around 3,500 miles a year in my car with Wendy's being under 3,000miles. Our capital costs 5 & 2 years ago were just under £5k for the Jeep the Freelander was £13k both bought outright.

Being retired the capital costs of an EV & a Heat Pump conversion are completely out of reach being on a pension that will not keep up with inflation even with index linking.