Author Topic: Bolts - buy from official sources (DS, CMS) or source them other places?  (Read 967 times)

Offline alexdecker

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Hey all

When restoring bikes, do you usually buy new bolts from CMS or DS, or do you source them from any where you can get them? Can't figure out the best way forward. DS or CMS would be the most expensive way forward. Don't know if all their bolts are stainless steel etc. Many of my bolts are rusted through, and replacements have been made during the life of the bike. Looking to replace them with fresher ones, also to shine up the look a bit.

What do you guys recommend?

Offline Bryanj

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Re: Bolts - buy from official sources (DS, CMS) or source them other places?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2023, 08:08:44 AM »
Talk to nurse julie, she has the proper jis screws, you do need a jis screwdriver NOT a phillips or pozi

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Re: Bolts - buy from official sources (DS, CMS) or source them other places?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2023, 08:32:28 AM »
The original bolts are plated (zinc usually) that has a role in corrosion resistance.

In the aluminium cases the zinc coating is sacrificial in that it's this part that changes to white corrosion and preserves the aluminium casting from being eaten away.

Stainless steel has the affect in the same conditions to cause the aluminium alloy to be corroded.  They need to be assembled with a sacrificial metal grease (zinc, copper, nickel types) to avoid promotion of this corrosion when used instead of original fit bolts.

Offline McCabe-Thiele (Ted)

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Re: Bolts - buy from official sources (DS, CMS) or source them other places?
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2023, 09:41:55 AM »
When I rebuilt my 400 I used a small bottle brush dipped in Copperease to coat the thread holes as well as the stainless bolts.

There are some bolts available that use a small bolt head instead of the JIS cross heads. Not being a purist I used SS Allen key headed plus a washer.
A lot to be said for using the original design that Julie's sells.

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Offline alexdecker

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Re: Bolts - buy from official sources (DS, CMS) or source them other places?
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2023, 12:17:14 PM »
When I reassembled my engine, I used Allen head bolts with copper grease. But I am in the middle of renovating the front forks, and need bolts for attaching the front brake, the wheel etc. They all seem like regular bolts, so just wondered if there was something to just sourcing regular stainless steel bolts locally and assemble with copper grease, or if using other bolts than from CMS/DS will have some sort of cosmetic effect I am unaware of as of right now?

Offline paulbaker1954

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Re: Bolts - buy from official sources (DS, CMS) or source them other places?
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2023, 08:28:23 AM »
I always use Inox in Southampton

http://www.inoxbolt.co.uk/zen/

Good quality and service

I am not a purist and replaced my JIS with socket cap screws as I just prefer them
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Offline Oddjob

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Re: Bolts - buy from official sources (DS, CMS) or source them other places?
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2023, 05:48:25 PM »
There are some pitfalls to using stainless rather than original bolts. First is cost, they can cost more, however a new OEM bolt will cost more still, DS and CMS don't give these away, the cost far exceeds there worth IMO. Also certain bolts can be high tensile, now stainless isn't as hard as high tensile but TBH there isn't a lot in it and I can't personally recall any bolts used in the 70s which were marked as high tensile, the brake caliper bolts for instance aren't, they just look like standard bolts. The second is that most 8mm bolts are 13mm headed these days whereas the standard Honda bolts are 12mm headed, not a big difference but they can look out of place in certain location, same with 10mm bolts, Honda tended to use 14mm heads and stainless replacements tend to have 17mm heads, on stuff like the caliper bolts this can mean getting a socket onto the head can be awkward. You can source stainless with the correct size heads now IF you know where to look, 6mm stainless seem to get 8mm headed if they are shouldered bolts as well.

I never use socket screws, they collect water if facing upwards, this encourages corrosion and you go to remove them and the inside of the socket just rounds off. Been there, done that. No problem if they are stood proud, quick grab with a pair of mole grips and they come out but not where they are sunken, points cover for example, I've also had them round off just by torqueing them up, or trying to remove even genuine Honda ones that have been in there a while, my 1300 pinch bolts for the front spindle were socket bolts, they were also coned so when they rounded off moles couldn't get a grip, ended up using a cold chisel to knock a slot into them to get some purchase.

You want a cheap alternative to JIS casing screws, use modern Honda ones, they are 8mm headed, can be found in really odd sizes like the original ones are, try sourcing 32mm x 6mm screws, you can't generally. Find a breakers on Ebay where they are breaking a bike, they tend to offer all the bolts and screws as a bundle just to get rid of them, £20 or so and you can buy a hundred or so of all different sizes. They look better, don't round off and you can use air tools to remove and fit them. Or electric if that's what you have.
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Offline alexdecker

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Re: Bolts - buy from official sources (DS, CMS) or source them other places?
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2023, 05:53:07 AM »
There are some pitfalls to using stainless rather than original bolts. First is cost, they can cost more, however a new OEM bolt will cost more still, DS and CMS don't give these away, the cost far exceeds there worth IMO. Also certain bolts can be high tensile, now stainless isn't as hard as high tensile but TBH there isn't a lot in it and I can't personally recall any bolts used in the 70s which were marked as high tensile, the brake caliper bolts for instance aren't, they just look like standard bolts. The second is that most 8mm bolts are 13mm headed these days whereas the standard Honda bolts are 12mm headed, not a big difference but they can look out of place in certain location, same with 10mm bolts, Honda tended to use 14mm heads and stainless replacements tend to have 17mm heads, on stuff like the caliper bolts this can mean getting a socket onto the head can be awkward. You can source stainless with the correct size heads now IF you know where to look, 6mm stainless seem to get 8mm headed if they are shouldered bolts as well.

I never use socket screws, they collect water if facing upwards, this encourages corrosion and you go to remove them and the inside of the socket just rounds off. Been there, done that. No problem if they are stood proud, quick grab with a pair of mole grips and they come out but not where they are sunken, points cover for example, I've also had them round off just by torqueing them up, or trying to remove even genuine Honda ones that have been in there a while, my 1300 pinch bolts for the front spindle were socket bolts, they were also coned so when they rounded off moles couldn't get a grip, ended up using a cold chisel to knock a slot into them to get some purchase.

You want a cheap alternative to JIS casing screws, use modern Honda ones, they are 8mm headed, can be found in really odd sizes like the original ones are, try sourcing 32mm x 6mm screws, you can't generally. Find a breakers on Ebay where they are breaking a bike, they tend to offer all the bolts and screws as a bundle just to get rid of them, £20 or so and you can buy a hundred or so of all different sizes. They look better, don't round off and you can use air tools to remove and fit them. Or electric if that's what you have.

Thank you for this! Is there an official place to source modern Honda screws, or is it via breakers as you say?

Offline Oddjob

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Re: Bolts - buy from official sources (DS, CMS) or source them other places?
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2023, 06:42:31 AM »
Any Honda dealer will order the modern ones for you. They use a very simple part number system, for example a flanged 8mm headed casing screw 32mm long by 6mm is part number 96000-06032-00. The 96000 part is the identifier of that type of bolt, 06 is the diameter of the bolt and 032 is the length, the 00 part is the colour generally. Some of these bolts are black so you’ll see that part change to reflect that. So if you want a 6 x 28 bolt you just change that part, so it would be 96000-06028-00. Measure an existing JIS screw and then see if the equivalent is available in modern Honda ones, some of the clutch case casing screws on the 550 for instance are quite long, one is 75mm and one is 80mm so try searching for 96000-06075-00 and 96000-06080-00 for instance to see if Honda made them that length, which after searching I can report they did.

It’s generally much cheaper though to buy a job lot off a breakers and just order the hard to find ones if you need any.
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Offline juitz

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Re: Bolts - buy from official sources (DS, CMS) or source them other places?
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2023, 12:39:44 PM »
All I can recommend is that you don't buy "kits" of eBay.

Either they are just a collection of bolts, or are missing the hard to find one ones such ws m6x32mm

Take the time to ID and source the correct bolts yourself.

Online Laverdaroo

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Re: Bolts - buy from official sources (DS, CMS) or source them other places?
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2023, 02:35:31 PM »
All the JISs Rees are available but you might have to shop between DSS & CMSNL AS NEITHER CARRY ALL OF THEM. I had to get the longer JIS ones from silvers but some others from CMS. Dear but correct and come in 48hrs. Spot on


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Offline Oddjob

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Re: Bolts - buy from official sources (DS, CMS) or source them other places?
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2023, 03:14:32 PM »
Personally I have no idea why people think it's a good idea to fit screws which back in the day we couldn't wait to get rid of. Plus, they are willing to pay through the nose for the privilege. They weren't nicknamed putty headed screws for no reason. Far better alternatives available today.
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Offline AndyD

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Re: Bolts - buy from official sources (DS, CMS) or source them other places?
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2023, 05:53:02 PM »
Evening all,
Been away from the bike shed for a while but trying to get back to it soon and been interesting to catch up on some threads on here.

One good source for JIS screws I used was -  https://www.zed-parts.com/j-i-s-fasteners - seemed to have a good range of sizes and reasonable prices.

What I've found really annoying is buying original fixings at stupid prices and then what you get look nothing like the originals - Suzuki seemed bad for this as the new bolt heads were totally different.

Not sure I'll do (m)any original restorations from now on as cost just silly and getting so hard to source real parts - might be more fun just refurbishing what's there and using whatever fixings etc. look nice instead.

Cheers,
Andy

Offline alexdecker

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Re: Bolts - buy from official sources (DS, CMS) or source them other places?
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2023, 07:00:49 PM »
Any Honda dealer will order the modern ones for you. They use a very simple part number system, for example a flanged 8mm headed casing screw 32mm long by 6mm is part number 96000-06032-00. The 96000 part is the identifier of that type of bolt, 06 is the diameter of the bolt and 032 is the length, the 00 part is the colour generally. Some of these bolts are black so you’ll see that part change to reflect that. So if you want a 6 x 28 bolt you just change that part, so it would be 96000-06028-00. Measure an existing JIS screw and then see if the equivalent is available in modern Honda ones, some of the clutch case casing screws on the 550 for instance are quite long, one is 75mm and one is 80mm so try searching for 96000-06075-00 and 96000-06080-00 for instance to see if Honda made them that length, which after searching I can report they did.

It’s generally much cheaper though to buy a job lot off a breakers and just order the hard to find ones if you need any.

This is marvellous information!

Potentially stupid question, but how do you decide when to replace with flanged hex head, normal hex head or a third option?

Also, do you use zinc plated instead of stainless steel?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2023, 07:04:45 PM by alexdecker »

Offline Oddjob

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Re: Bolts - buy from official sources (DS, CMS) or source them other places?
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2023, 07:19:56 PM »
Use flanged 8mm headed bolts from modern Hondas on all casings. The flange spreads the load and stops the bolt digging into the alloy.

As for other bolts, if it had flanged originally then replace with flanged, engine bolts are often flanged, especially the ones on the top of the casing. If you can't find flanged in the correct size use a washer underneath the head so the nut doesn't dig in as it tightens.

Engine hanger bolts tend not to be flanged, use normal bolts for those if you like but make sure you also fit a washer under the head and a washer and spring washer underneath the nut. Also grease them well to stop them binding/rusting into the frame hole. Especially critical on the ones going through the crankcases, like those under the engine and at the front of the engine.

If fitting stainless then try and source bolts which use the correct size head if at all possible, don't forget as well that Honda had a nasty habit of changing the thread pitch on some bolts, not a huge problem where you're also replacing the nut but bolts which go into threaded holes for instance need to be checked for thread pitch, 6mm bolts/screws tend to be 1.00 pitch, 8mm are usually 1.25 pitch but some 10mm bolts are 1.5 pitch not the 1.75 that's usually supplied, they are called metric fine bolts. Same go for nuts fitting to studs, check pitch before ordering. Rear sprocket nuts for instance are 1.5 pitch not 1.75. Bottom fork yokes are metric fine as are caliper bolts.

I use https://www.stainlessmiddleton.co.uk/ for my stainless as they are highly polished with no writing on top of the bolt head, he also does 12mm headed 8mm bolts instead of the more normal 13mm head. Same for 10mm, he also does 14mm headed bolts instead of the usual 17mm. Don't forget, if in doubt measure pitch first or ask for advise on here.

You can see the modern Honda bolts used in this pic, on the generator cover and also on the camshaft cover.

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Accidents in the back seat cause kids.

 

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