Author Topic: Strange coil faults and sparking???  (Read 592 times)

Offline Laverdaroo

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Strange coil faults and sparking???
« on: May 22, 2023, 08:34:01 PM »
Hi after a good fiddle at the weekend (leave it Phil), and a tuning sesh getting the 400 sorted for the Boss, I turned to getting the 550 running a bit better. It's timed spot on, both statically and when running last weekend on 4 pots, done dynamically with good results. Valves done,carbs balanced, again last weekend when it was on all 4, and although kinda set up, needs finisheing off hence the twiddling yesterday.

I set everything up and it started with barely a touch of the button but only on 3 (2,3,4). Ok, pipe one cold, all other pipes nice and hot and all sparking with a test plug in each HT cap in turn when touching the head with the bare plug end, as you do.

So I have 2,3 and 4 all doing good and spot on so I take the plug out of cyl 1 and touch it against the head and press the starter.......nothing!          That is until I move the plug away from the head by about an inch and get a big long blue spark??? I number all my plugs with a marker to keep diagnosis easier should anything like this arise so I tried another plug and the same result, interesting!  Everytjing else behaving as they should and showing fat sparks on the head when touched while hitting the starter.

I then go accross all four HT leads doing the same thing and all are fine except when trying number 1 which then promoted the 'obligatory' wiggling of wires and leads to try to see how intermittant and where the fault might be coming from. Same results.

Went for a brew and a thunk after a small consise Anglo Saxon retort, as expected!

Went back out 10 mins later and preceded to do it all again except this time all four plugs were doing as requested when touching the engine and showing good spark, huzzah thought I............re fitted all four after a second check and all looked spot on, HT leads back on and press fire..............3 cylinders except its 1,2 and 3 this time so the fault has jumped from 1 to 4?????     EH, how queer! ???

Do the whole process and the number 4 plug wont spark except about an inch away from the engine and you get a good arc! and as I was reminded, a good nibble if you catch yerself on it ;D ;D

Another wiggle and a prod, all four sparking so re fit, press go..........3 cylinders again but now its 2,3 and 4, so it's gone back to number 1!   I did this several times and always it would swap over for no reason.  STUMPED! ;D

Yes, the coils have had the 'Ash mod' and tested well afterwards so was happy with how they ended up afer the refurb which was done as the OE leads were so battered they just hung limp when you held them up and were snapped in various places. Anyway, questions, questions...

I realise there's nothing mechanical in the coils and nothing moves so I can't even picture this fault and how it might be happening or the reason why it might be swapping from primary to secondary coils, if I'm gettig that reasonably right?
 Has anybody had a similar fault or heard of anything that might be somewhere near a similar event that might explain it or promote it. As its intermittant  fault it's hard to pin down and especially when I have no 'concievable' way of thinking why or how it might be happening.

Me annd Ken had a chin wag the other night about it and he's stumped also but one potential thing to look at maybe is the engine cases behind the rotor plate of the points, possibly  There might be some cerekote on the end of the cases that might be breaking contact with the points plate and the motor? Probably not but I'll do the easy checks first before firing the parts canon or removing stuff,
Condensers were also mentioned and a test wil be done on those  whilst I'm at it but for the most part we were clutching at straws and a bit lost.


I'll have to get another coil set I think but I'll swap the blue and yellow wires to the current set and see if I can replicate the events but even if I can I think the safest bet is to buy a new set.  I would still like to understand how it can jump from one side to the other at will, all sparking outside the motor  but not when the plugs are back in the motor. Just a, well,  really odd one.  :o

Sorry about the epic but it took some describing...............
Mornings are the invention of the devil!

1977 CB550F (current money pit!!)
2002 VFR800 VTEC (The Beloved)
1977 CB400F (the last money pit!)
1998 Ducati 748\853 conversion(sold :()
1980 ish CB750KZ in a billion bits (need to get rid, anybody want one?))

Offline K2-K6

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Re: Strange coil faults and sparking???
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2023, 09:31:26 PM »
Certainly a bit peculiar  :)

Thinking the same as you, swap the condensers over between the two sides to see what that does. Moves over or nothing happens?

The resistance changes on one lead when you move the plug away, but it's still linked through that same coil. When the first plug sparks it "rings" back through the coil and points curcuit as a reaction, this can get the condenser to effectively re-fire the coil and may give that symptom or similar.

As you plan though, to eliminate the coil would be ideal by substitute. 

You could swap the advance mech cam 180 degree and switch the blue / yellow wires to run the opposite coils onto the "wrong" points and see where the problem goes to.

Offline McCabe-Thiele (Ted)

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Re: Strange coil faults and sparking???
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2023, 10:07:57 PM »
In my first two weeks of ownership my 500 was all over the place with a cylinder not firing mainly number 1.
So I could have 10 mile ride before strip down I bought a cheap pair of Hedler coils for £17 - she fired up instantly & ran on all four cylinders.
The coil leads were cracked just near where they emerged from the coils - have kept the old coils for if I ever get round to Ashs coil fix in the future.
Honda CB500 K1 (new pit dug out ready)
Honda CB400 four super sport (first money pit)
Link to my full restoration http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,23291.0.html

Offline Laverdaroo

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Re: Strange coil faults and sparking???
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2023, 10:19:08 PM »
Certainly a bit peculiar  :)

Thinking the same as you, swap the condensers over between the two sides to see what that does. Moves over or nothing happens?

The resistance changes on one lead when you move the plug away, but it's still linked through that same coil. When the first plug sparks it "rings" back through the coil and points curcuit as a reaction, this can get the condenser to effectively re-fire the coil and may give that symptom or similar.

As you plan though, to eliminate the coil would be ideal by substitute. 

You could swap the advance mech cam 180 degree and switch the blue / yellow wires to run the opposite coils onto the "wrong" points and see where the problem goes to.

I think thats the first point of call after cleaning the end of the cases, do the condensers etc. When I get back to it tmrw evening I'll see what occurs and try to report back with better terminology as I'm sure, "How queer" isnt really an engineering term ;D
In my first two weeks of ownership my 500 was all over the place with a cylinder not firing mainly number 1.
So I could have 10 mile ride before strip down I bought a cheap pair of Hedler coils for £17 - she fired up instantly & ran on all four cylinders.
The coil leads were cracked just near where they emerged from the coils - have kept the old coils for if I ever get round to Ashs coil fix in the future.
Mornings are the invention of the devil!

1977 CB550F (current money pit!!)
2002 VFR800 VTEC (The Beloved)
1977 CB400F (the last money pit!)
1998 Ducati 748\853 conversion(sold :()
1980 ish CB750KZ in a billion bits (need to get rid, anybody want one?))

Offline Laverdaroo

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Re: Strange coil faults and sparking???
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2023, 10:19:50 PM »
In my first two weeks of ownership my 500 was all over the place with a cylinder not firing mainly number 1.
So I could have 10 mile ride before strip down I bought a cheap pair of Hedler coils for £17 - she fired up instantly & ran on all four cylinders.
The coil leads were cracked just near where they emerged from the coils - have kept the old coils for if I ever get round to Ashs coil fix in the future.

New HT leads on teh fix so ruled that out Ted.
Mornings are the invention of the devil!

1977 CB550F (current money pit!!)
2002 VFR800 VTEC (The Beloved)
1977 CB400F (the last money pit!)
1998 Ducati 748\853 conversion(sold :()
1980 ish CB750KZ in a billion bits (need to get rid, anybody want one?))

Offline Laverdaroo

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Re: Strange coil faults and sparking???
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2023, 10:49:01 PM »
Quite a few options out there isnt there?
Any reccomendations peeps?

Bit short on cash at the min so only going to be a stop gap but whats what..(brand new). Any help gratefully recieved......
Mornings are the invention of the devil!

1977 CB550F (current money pit!!)
2002 VFR800 VTEC (The Beloved)
1977 CB400F (the last money pit!)
1998 Ducati 748\853 conversion(sold :()
1980 ish CB750KZ in a billion bits (need to get rid, anybody want one?))

Offline Oddjob

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Re: Strange coil faults and sparking???
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2023, 10:55:15 PM »
I have a few sets of coils Roo, got them so I could do a number of them and then sell them on Ebay. Gave a set to Nige the other day as he has some odd looking ones and he wanted to go back to standard but didn't even have the coil mounts.

You can have a pair if you like, you'll need to Ash mod them though, you got spare HT lead?
Kids in a the back seat cause accidents.
Accidents in the back seat cause kids.

Offline Matt_Harrington

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Re: Strange coil faults and sparking???
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2023, 08:30:36 AM »
Maybe swap the coils over and see if spark moved back and forth between 2&3. Sound like a very dodgy coil to me. Just a thought...
Matt
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CB400F 1976 -  Almost finished
CB400F 1977 - On the road!
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Offline McCabe-Thiele (Ted)

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Re: Strange coil faults and sparking???
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2023, 08:40:51 AM »
If the coil swop moves the misfire you are welcome to my pair of coils foc just postage Roo.
Honda CB500 K1 (new pit dug out ready)
Honda CB400 four super sport (first money pit)
Link to my full restoration http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,23291.0.html

Offline Laverdaroo

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Re: Strange coil faults and sparking???
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2023, 07:21:38 PM »
Thanks all for the offers, I havent managed to get back to it yet as been at the dentists againa nd not had a chance to sly oiut for a fiddle about. Its my burfday tmrw so hoping the birthday fairy has taken EVERY POSSIBLE hint that exists but I doubt it ::)


Ill let you know............
Mornings are the invention of the devil!

1977 CB550F (current money pit!!)
2002 VFR800 VTEC (The Beloved)
1977 CB400F (the last money pit!)
1998 Ducati 748\853 conversion(sold :()
1980 ish CB750KZ in a billion bits (need to get rid, anybody want one?))

Offline Multiman

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Re: Strange coil faults and sparking???
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2023, 09:55:05 PM »
You typing with your teeth again Roo?
I can drop over my old coils if you like?
One will defo ned the Ash treatment though

Offline flatfour

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Re: Strange coil faults and sparking???
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2023, 10:05:23 AM »
Each year I carry out a maintenance session on whichever older bike that will be used for the summer.

The sequence has long been to change the oil  and filter in year one, as well as checking chain tension and that all ancillaries work as they should. Tyres etc. are checked weekly in all cases.

In year two, I repeat the year one processes with the addition of a points/timing check, plug check etc.

In year three I carry out the previous year two processes and add in valve clearance checks, carburettor balance and cam chain tension, together with replacing spark plugs.

It is always the case that after the year three work problems seem to set in, often unrelated to the actual work undertaken. This year I found the charge rate to be low, so replaced the regulator/rectifier with a solid state unit that I bought a few years ago as a spare. The idle then became erratic, with variations of between 1,000 and almost 2,000 rpm at random - the rubber manifold between the engine and number one carburettor was leaking. Following the replacement of all rubber manifolds and the airbox to carburettor rubbers, the bike would not run on number one cylinder - this was due to a failed (new NGK) plug on that cylinder. Last time around (two years ago) the number one/four cylinder condensor failed.

Finally, we seem to be sorted out and I am looking forward the the next two years of (hopefully) trouble - free riding!

 

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