Author Topic: Timing problems on the 450 Bomber  (Read 3931 times)

Offline royhall

  • SOHC Jedi
  • Posts: 3349
  • Keep biking I'm not quite bankrupt yet
    • View Profile
Re: Timing problems on the 450 Bomber
« Reply #30 on: November 27, 2023, 08:51:28 PM »
Just wondering what triggers the sensor's. It looks like the standard points cam is left on. Is that correct. Every EI that I have ever dealt with, the centre cam on the advancer is changed for a magnetic trigger supplied with the kit. Don't understand that at all. Maybe why you have no spark as there's nothing to trigger the sensors. But then, maybe it's designed that way, and only Common Motors can answer that one. But I guess it's lighting the led's so it must be triggering but heaven only knows how.

Looks from their website that no rotor is supplied in the kit. Another thought, is the battery fully charged and the rectifier working okay. They have those horrible selenium rectifiers that tend to fail.
Also, according to the website you have no warranty unless you fit their regulator/rectifier.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2023, 10:12:31 PM by royhall »
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
Honda CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
Honda CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
Triumph Trident 660 in Black/White
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC
Honda CB450K0 Black Bomber
Honda CB750K5 in Planet Blue Metallic (Current Project)

Offline K2-K6

  • Grogu
  • *
  • Posts: 5189
    • View Profile
Re: Timing problems on the 450 Bomber
« Reply #31 on: November 27, 2023, 10:20:38 PM »
Yes, just uses the std cam and shows cleaning, lubrication of the advance mech etc in the yt clip.

With the leds changing status it would appear to be switching the circuit as required as they just indicate status visually to help setup.

Offline royhall

  • SOHC Jedi
  • Posts: 3349
  • Keep biking I'm not quite bankrupt yet
    • View Profile
Re: Timing problems on the 450 Bomber
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2023, 10:24:21 PM »
What triggers the sensor's?

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
Honda CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
Honda CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
Triumph Trident 660 in Black/White
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC
Honda CB450K0 Black Bomber
Honda CB750K5 in Planet Blue Metallic (Current Project)

Offline K2-K6

  • Grogu
  • *
  • Posts: 5189
    • View Profile
Re: Timing problems on the 450 Bomber
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2023, 10:37:43 PM »
Guessing at "Hall effect" from proximity of ferrous presence of cam peak.

Interestingly they can only be fitted in one direction (there's an arrow on the face, facing the cam lobe) and he says they won't work backwards. 

Offline mo goldie

  • SOHC Associate
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
Re: Timing problems on the 450 Bomber
« Reply #34 on: November 27, 2023, 11:17:43 PM »
yes it all light up and go`s out on each light be it the blue or the Green so it must be triggering just not getting the spark at the plugs.

they still Not got back to me yet :(

will put some pictures on later to just show a bit more I hope.

Oh ..wish I had got the one you got Roy seems a lot better as No extra modules just the ones on the plate ha.
 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2023, 11:19:56 PM by mo goldie »
Currant BIKES:

1980 Triumph Bonneville 750 T140/D Special Black & Gold
1962 BSA 650 Rocket Gold Star ( silver ) 
1977 Norton Commando 850 MK3  Interstate ( silver )
1977 Kawasaki KH400 Triple ( Green )
1999 Harley Davidson 1200S sportster Sport ( silver )
1975 Honda Monkey st70 Dax ( Blue )
( in process )1967 Honda CB450 KO Black Bomber

Offline mo goldie

  • SOHC Associate
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
Re: Timing problems on the 450 Bomber
« Reply #35 on: November 27, 2023, 11:53:18 PM »
here is a two pictures I took today the one if you look at the pick up`s can you see the dot on the end of the cam, Then look at the other picture that is where the timing marks are .......... and the pinkish mark`s is where the TDC is after using a Dial gauge to find that out......... but where ever you turn it the plugs don`t spark.

Yes it is the standard Auto Advance used and i stripped that just like they say cleaned it and use white Grease to lube too.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2023, 11:58:15 PM by mo goldie »
Currant BIKES:

1980 Triumph Bonneville 750 T140/D Special Black & Gold
1962 BSA 650 Rocket Gold Star ( silver ) 
1977 Norton Commando 850 MK3  Interstate ( silver )
1977 Kawasaki KH400 Triple ( Green )
1999 Harley Davidson 1200S sportster Sport ( silver )
1975 Honda Monkey st70 Dax ( Blue )
( in process )1967 Honda CB450 KO Black Bomber

Offline royhall

  • SOHC Jedi
  • Posts: 3349
  • Keep biking I'm not quite bankrupt yet
    • View Profile
Re: Timing problems on the 450 Bomber
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2023, 06:43:34 AM »
The one I fitted was my second system. The first was a Pamco unit that I spent an entire day fitting including making a special wire sub harness for. That sod didn't work at all so I understand how your feeling. To add to the pain the company ceased trading at the same time so no help or refund. That went in the bin and I bit the bullet and bought the Charlie's Place system.

Are you sure your electrical system on the bike is up to scratch as these systems are really sensitive to fluctuations in voltage. The standard bomber doesn't even have a regulator fitted and a 55 year old selenium rectifier and single phase alternator. This is why Common Motors insist that you fit their combined reg/rec. Sorry to say but this is beginning to look like another faulty electrical system, and not the ignition unit. Probably best contacting the supplier again for advice. I fitted a regulator from a later model and a modern solid state rectifier, along with a new Motobatt AGM battery, and a new wiring harness. I also have a NOS alternator rotor fitted as old ones can loose magnetism and directly affect charging. In other words I went through the entire system to get things to work correctly.

When your trying for a spark are you using the electric starter or the kickstart. The reason I asked about the battery being fully charged is that the system won't work correctly if the voltage drops. Using the electric starter will possibly drop the charge too low for the system to fire the coils?

I think we're all scrambling for ideas as trouble shooting electrical problems from afar is difficult.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2023, 07:35:39 AM by royhall »
Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
Honda CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
Honda CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
Triumph Trident 660 in Black/White
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC
Honda CB450K0 Black Bomber
Honda CB750K5 in Planet Blue Metallic (Current Project)

Offline royhall

  • SOHC Jedi
  • Posts: 3349
  • Keep biking I'm not quite bankrupt yet
    • View Profile
Re: Timing problems on the 450 Bomber
« Reply #37 on: November 28, 2023, 07:28:43 AM »
Guessing at "Hall effect" from proximity of ferrous presence of cam peak.

Interestingly they can only be fitted in one direction (there's an arrow on the face, facing the cam lobe) and he says they won't work backwards.
Hall effect isn't going to work that well without magnets fitted surely. Just triggering off the proximity of the cam lobe is a bit hit and miss isn't it.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
Honda CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
Honda CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
Triumph Trident 660 in Black/White
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC
Honda CB450K0 Black Bomber
Honda CB750K5 in Planet Blue Metallic (Current Project)

Offline K2-K6

  • Grogu
  • *
  • Posts: 5189
    • View Profile
Re: Timing problems on the 450 Bomber
« Reply #38 on: November 28, 2023, 08:09:44 AM »
They only need a small shift to work I think with newer components, rather than a bigger spike we've seen before and usually with magnets in plastic rotor.

They do seem to be switching though, evidenced by the led flip flopping, so signal is there to be amplified and trip the solid state earth modulation. 

Maybe check the circuit to earth (on the coil earth routes out of the boxes) to see if that is switching, then meaning there's problem on coil side of system.

Offline royhall

  • SOHC Jedi
  • Posts: 3349
  • Keep biking I'm not quite bankrupt yet
    • View Profile
Re: Timing problems on the 450 Bomber
« Reply #39 on: November 28, 2023, 08:26:33 AM »
I would say there's a reason beyond salesmanship why they insist you fit a new rec/reg or you don't get a warranty. Maybe there's enough voltage from the old bike system to light the led's but not enough to operate the system. It looks correctly fitted but it still ain't working. We don't know anything about the state of the bikes battery or system.

Mo. Any chance of a couple of photos under the seat.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
Honda CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
Honda CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
Triumph Trident 660 in Black/White
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC
Honda CB450K0 Black Bomber
Honda CB750K5 in Planet Blue Metallic (Current Project)

Offline K2-K6

  • Grogu
  • *
  • Posts: 5189
    • View Profile
Re: Timing problems on the 450 Bomber
« Reply #40 on: November 28, 2023, 08:45:20 AM »
I can see your point Roy in regard to in situ spec.

Usually (although that's making a assumption  :)  ) the voltage control is looking at too high a voltage that may risk damage to the new boxes. The lower threshold seems to be one of the advantage with current state electronics,, in that they work really well even at lower than ideal voltage because of component efficiency.

Interesting to hear what the supplier may contribute to this.

If the earth to coils is switching though, thats all it has to do to get coil spark from that side of things.

Offline mo goldie

  • SOHC Associate
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
Re: Timing problems on the 450 Bomber
« Reply #41 on: November 28, 2023, 08:57:37 AM »
Well to start the battery is almost new and fully charged and I have fitted a solid state rectifier, don't know if fitting that has made any difference as the bike has never been run with that on yet.i will be going down workshop in a bit and will get some pictures Roy.... they did get back to me this morning but that was for question I asked about timing and just to say have I got the pick ups the right way round  :-[ but not got back about not having a spark... anyway I will get back with the pictures and also have a look at earth points again but I keep going over what I have done but all seems to be done right..
Currant BIKES:

1980 Triumph Bonneville 750 T140/D Special Black & Gold
1962 BSA 650 Rocket Gold Star ( silver ) 
1977 Norton Commando 850 MK3  Interstate ( silver )
1977 Kawasaki KH400 Triple ( Green )
1999 Harley Davidson 1200S sportster Sport ( silver )
1975 Honda Monkey st70 Dax ( Blue )
( in process )1967 Honda CB450 KO Black Bomber

Offline royhall

  • SOHC Jedi
  • Posts: 3349
  • Keep biking I'm not quite bankrupt yet
    • View Profile
Re: Timing problems on the 450 Bomber
« Reply #42 on: November 28, 2023, 09:39:12 AM »
Starting to point to a faulty system if everything is already checking out.

Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk

Current bikes:
TriBsa CCM 350 Twin
Honda CB350F in Candy Bacchus Olive
Honda CB750F2 in Candy Apple Red
Triumph Trident 660 in Black/White
Triumph T100C
Suzuki GS1000HC
Honda CB450K0 Black Bomber
Honda CB750K5 in Planet Blue Metallic (Current Project)

Offline mo goldie

  • SOHC Associate
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
Re: Timing problems on the 450 Bomber
« Reply #43 on: November 28, 2023, 10:24:59 AM »
just been down and had anther look still No wiser,

Here are the pictures you can see by one pic there is the lights all on and they do go off when you turn the engine over, I have tried what you said too about kicking it over but still the same... also the battery is an AGM battery and very strong one :(

can I ask a silly maybe question but if I put 12V right to the coils will that make them fire the spark plugs ?   
« Last Edit: November 28, 2023, 10:30:05 AM by mo goldie »
Currant BIKES:

1980 Triumph Bonneville 750 T140/D Special Black & Gold
1962 BSA 650 Rocket Gold Star ( silver ) 
1977 Norton Commando 850 MK3  Interstate ( silver )
1977 Kawasaki KH400 Triple ( Green )
1999 Harley Davidson 1200S sportster Sport ( silver )
1975 Honda Monkey st70 Dax ( Blue )
( in process )1967 Honda CB450 KO Black Bomber

Offline K2-K6

  • Grogu
  • *
  • Posts: 5189
    • View Profile
Re: Timing problems on the 450 Bomber
« Reply #44 on: November 28, 2023, 10:35:17 AM »
"can I ask a silly maybe question but if I put 12V right to the coils will that make them fire the spark plugs ?   "

You can fire a coil by, establishing a + supply to it first, this enables it to collect power but only when you have the earth connected too.

All conventional coils are like this......then disconnecting the earth (points opening in old money ) will cause the stored energy to exit via the HT lead to give you spark.

Don't back connect anything to coils with them in system to avoid risk. Just bare coils with constant + then touch the earth to fill, remove to spark.

 

SimplePortal 2.3.5 © 2008-2012, SimplePortal