POINTS TIMING CB500/4

[barney]

I am at the stage of my rebuild in deciding to fit a Boyer system or not. My question is when trying to set the points, I find the correct mark for cylinders 1-4 and set the points gap, all is OK. Then when I rotate the crank for setting the 2-3 cylinders the points for 1-4 are still opening making the gap wider !!
Is this normal or should I have to rotate the points back plate to compensate ? The points cover has been set on the rebuild by lining up the scribed mark line which was put there before stopping down.
Thanks,

[deltarider]

I find the correct mark for cylinders 1-4 and set the points gap, all is OK. Then when I rotate the crank for setting the 2-3 cylinders the points for 1-4 are still opening making the gap wider !!

Just to make sure you did it right: you DON'T set the points gap at the mark, you set the gap when it is at it's widest (and that is certainly not at the mark). The mark is for the timing of the ignition, it's the position where the points begin to open. This timing is done after you've set the points gap. So, two different things done at two different crankpositions.
Step 1: turn the crank till gap is at it's widest and check if this gap is within specs. If necessary adjust by moving the set of breaker points.
Step 2: Check the timing of the ignition. That means point should start to open at the mark. Adjustment can be made by moving the backplate.
Check your manual.

[K2-K6]

Just to add to the above which is correct:-

As you move the points plates to correct timing you can get small variations in the points gap depending on the accuracy of the mechanical fittings, so you may need to fiddle about for a bit to get both settings accurate.

They aren't hard to get working well though and for a non race engine they are a fairly nice setup with no really inherent limitations and generally seem to be long term reliable, so shouldn't give you any concerns in use.

[florence]

I have to agree with the above comments.  I have been running mine on points since 1995 and no problems.  I've had to change them a few times but not very often.  I have also been surprised by how far they can sometimes go out of setting and yet the engine will still run well without apparent problem, usually when I am really overdue in replacing them.

Many years ago my friend had an electronic ignition set which was always going wrong.  In the end we took it off in favour of points.

[Tomb]

I have the points in my 500/4 that came with it when I bought the bike, I use it for work every day, I bought it 27 years ago

I check the gaps every few years and they've never altered

[ST1100]

Many years ago my friend had an electronic ignition set which was always going wrong.  In the end we took it off in favour of points.

So you blokes would not recommend the use of electronic ignition control on CB500/4s at all?

[K2-K6]

I think it's just that the standard setup has no significant problems and is generally very reliable, they almost never stop from a problem in this area with just basic maintenance, so you wouldn't pinpoint this as an urgent need to replace it.

Longer term you are more likely to get issues with HT leads and plug caps that give problems in the wet/damp, this would be my first point to make sure you avoid any problems in general use especially given the age of some of these parts.

As the points run directly on the crankshaft then the switching speed is quite fast which builds in a good performance. As they don't really get to VERY high revs then you don't get into other compromises either so they generally match quite well the standard performance of the engine.

[Bryanj]

The way I look at it is this:-

If you are doing 1,000's of miles a year (Unlikely with the age of bikes we have) it might be worth fitting electronic to save the adjusting every 3,000

If you are doing less than 1,000 a year it simply aint worth it as you will only need to adjust infrequently and any standing problems are cured with a dose of WD40----other products are available!

[ST1100]

Yes Bryanj, makes sense; I'd applied the POV of doing >12T miles a year 

[matthewmosse]

I ran my oufit with standard points for about 100,000 miles with barely any interference but the replacement set I eventually fitted gave a lot of problems and just kept going out of time or so it seemed - I'm now having doubts that it was the points as at the same time I did a swap over to a 550 k3 engine and carbs and going by reading on this forum I think the carbs were the bug bear

[hairygit]

I've always stuck with points, if it was good enough for Hondas racing bikes in the 60's, it's good enough for a road going bike! I have even used car condensors (Lucas ones from a mini) and they have been just as reliable as (very expensive!) genuine ones, annual mileage is often 16,000 plus and NEVER a breakdown!

[z1100r]

 I have given up with aftermarket electronic ignitions. I have had 3 blow. I mentioned this on the US site and ended up being accused of not knowing what I was doing by some yank arse. First to blow was a Martek on my Yoshi 460 race bike. Left it switched on for 2 hours by mistake...kaputsky.

 My bike is also still on its original points and condensors from new. OK there was a sizeable gap where Boyer, and Piranha had a go at providing the sparks - but in the end the points went back on. From 75-83 it had points and they did 30,000 miles, from 83-87 it raced with electronic ignitions, from 87-95 it  commuted 70 miles a day with last electronic ignition to begin with and then back on points after about a year. From early 2000 bike was left to die abandoned in an old lorry until begining 2011 when it was fully restored and is now back being used regularly again. That original 1975 points timing plate has seen some action I can tell you - and still is doing. I bought new points/condensors from DS but couldn't be arsed to fit them whilst the bike is still running great on the old ones.

 I wouldn't bother with aftermarket electronics.

[K2-K6]

I understand all of the technical advantages claimed/produced by electronic systems, but most of those are quoted as a gain from some poor points systems.

These standard points equiped Honda systems were not poor to begin with and many of the gains are marginal. What is not marginal is a failure that strands you somewhere which you just don't seem to get with the original installation given basic servicing.

[ST1100]

...which you just don't seem to get with the original installation given basic servicing.

Which is the general base anyway... or should be...
Points were used for decades, worked flawless, as long as they received just a little TLC... (did have VeeDubs and such)
And since the combined experience of the owners doesn't indicate any weak point there, I rather save the quids for other essentials.

Besides that EI-farkel is not the true spirit of running CB500/4s 

cheers!

[Oldbuthopeful]

Oh 'eck !! Sounds as though the 170 quid I've just spent on a Boyer system for my 550four was money down the pan !

I can't comment yet on whether I think it was worthwhile because I haven't managed to get the old girl round the block
without her being reduced to a spluttering, mis-firing apology for a 'four'.  In fairness, I must say the carbs are a bit suspect
as the guy who recently checked them out and fitted new Keyser refurb kits (Andy from NRP Manchester) had problems
verifying the float height.  He had two conflicting sources of (written) information - one saying it should be 12.5mm and the
other giving 20mm  -  the latter from what he called his 'bible'.  We settled for 14 and he rebuilt them at that, but after telling
him about the mis-firing and the fact that the plugs on the non-firing cyclinders are wet, he suggests trying the floats at 17mm.
So it's off with the carbs yet again.  I don't mind the dismantling so much, it's putting them back and knowing that I've still got to
wrestle with the b....y rubbers that sucks.

Stop Press  :  I fitted new plugs yesterday before I began the carb exercise and she fired up on all four, but I've not had chance
to get her out for a run, so watch this space .  The Boyer might have been worthwhile after all !