Post by: royhall on December 29, 2021, 09:06:08 AM
The bike hasn't actually arrived yet and is at present in a container in Valencia, Spain. It has just been loaded onto the ship MSC Sandra after doing it's Atlantic leg on the MSC Maria Elena. For those of you with absolutely bugger all to do this is the container tracking number #TRHU7426738
The bike was actually bought off eBay via a well known outfit called Flashback Enterprises. This felt like taking a bit of a chance as the money had to be paid upfront via bank transfer (MoneyCorp). There is absolutely no safety net in that way of payment, except for a few clauses in the MoneyCorp transfer agreement. But I decided to take a chance as they came recommended by a member on here as well as other places. They also have very good feedback on eBay.
Before buying I asked a lot of questions via email and got good answers except for a few he didn't know the answer to. When you look at the pictures it is clear the bike has been apart and a few parts are loose. The engine has been out and put back in? The big question he couldn't answer was, has it had a chain break and broken cases. So I just had to take a chance on that.
It looks rough as it is, but try to look at it that the exhausts would have been rotted out, the seat knackered and the paintwork needing redoing anyway. So a set of replica pipes, a DSS seat, and a Yamiya tank set sorts the problem without any work involved.
The asking price on eBay was £1700 but he accepted an offer a bit lower than that so that was good. Looking at others for sale (and after visiting DK's in person) the present going price for a project is 3.5k to 4k. Then you still have to do the exhausts and paint etc so at £1500 it's not looking too bad. There will be additional port charges, VAT, NOVA, and delivery charges that amount to around £300. The way I look at that is the new exhausts and tank set are as good as free which is a good starting point for a project.
Here's some scary pictures: Steve, please don't block OddJob I was only kidding.
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 29, 2021, 09:17:24 AM
Post by: royhall on December 29, 2021, 09:24:03 AM
For me that tank and side panels are toast, when you think that pictures usually hide the real bike that tank must be a turd. I really don't think they are worth the extensive work required to save them as new ones are available. The seat pan may be saveable and rebuilt, will have to look at it when it arrives. To be honest I will be very happy if there has been no chain break and the cases are good. I don't think the engine has been apart by the look of it, and all the fins are good. The seller says it turns over with compression and all gears engage so hopefully the engine may be an easy rebuild.
Here's a few more pictures:
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Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on December 29, 2021, 10:36:27 AM
Oddjob is safe.
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Post by: Moorey on December 29, 2021, 11:05:45 AM
Or track your ship real time. https://www.myshiptracking.com/?mmsi=355305000
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on December 29, 2021, 11:27:16 AM
Post by: Laverdaroo on December 29, 2021, 12:27:07 PM
I hear you with the tank and panels but I'd be tempted to have a go at them, you might be surprised. Re the replacements, its a lot less work but I'd still be tempted. the motor looks pretty good and the casing issue aside, I think you've done rather well there, there is more there than when I bought my 550. A great starting point.
Post by: philward on December 29, 2021, 01:03:18 PM
If that bike was cosmetically better - ie, standard intact exhaust but with rust and better paint work, you would still probably still replace them. Other bits would be the same.
If the purpose of the rebuild is to just get it to a tidy runner, then thats a different thing all together and the above doesn't apply.
Great buy Roy - I'm sure you will mint it and will be interesting to follow the build.
Post by: JamesH on December 29, 2021, 03:36:04 PM
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Post by: heli_madken on December 29, 2021, 03:48:28 PM
Looking forward to watching your progress
Post by: royhall on December 29, 2021, 05:46:01 PM
Roy I’ve probably got a suitable grab rail for a K5 somewhere so if I come across it I’ll let you k ow and send some pics..good luck with the restoration…Thanks for that James. There will probably be many of those bits and pieces missing when it arrives so anything you can dig out for sale would be greatly appreciated.
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Post by: royhall on December 29, 2021, 05:51:18 PM
I bought a CBX from Flashback Enterprises last year, exactly the same process MoneyCorp transfer, delivery to Barrow etc dealt with a good guy 'Billy' this end who delivered the bike to me at reasonable cost. The bike turned up exactly as advertised, NOVA and taxes all in order so you have nothing to worry about there.That's reassuring to hear. Did Billy get in touch with you when the bike arrived in Barrow, or will I have to contact him. What did he charge you delivery up to Scotland? Cheers.
Looking forward to watching your progress
Post by: AshimotoK0 on December 29, 2021, 09:13:52 PM
Post by: royhall on December 29, 2021, 09:29:09 PM
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Post by: Johnny4428 on December 29, 2021, 10:42:38 PM
Post by: heli_madken on December 29, 2021, 11:34:45 PM
I bought a CBX from Flashback Enterprises last year, exactly the same process MoneyCorp transfer, delivery to Barrow etc dealt with a good guy 'Billy' this end who delivered the bike to me at reasonable cost. The bike turned up exactly as advertised, NOVA and taxes all in order so you have nothing to worry about there.That's reassuring to hear. Did Billy get in touch with you when the bike arrived in Barrow, or will I have to contact him. What did he charge you delivery up to Scotland? Cheers.
Looking forward to watching your progress
Billy got in touch with me, I was in Liverpool at the time of delivery I think he charged £260 but cant quite recall, I didn't feel it was too expensive based on other quotes I had received
Post by: Moorey on December 30, 2021, 09:21:00 PM
Now just entering Malaga docks.
Post by: royhall on December 31, 2021, 10:49:31 AM
Post by: Moorey on December 31, 2021, 01:29:18 PM
So Chris, you must be the one that has bugger all else to do. ;D
Someone has to do it. May as well be me. ;)
Post by: Moorey on December 31, 2021, 01:37:27 PM
Now left Malaga and due in at Sines Portugal 1/1/22
Post by: K2-K6 on December 31, 2021, 03:28:44 PM
Exciting though, and feel I'd be missing out not to attend the homecoming at barrow now ;D
Post by: JamesH on December 31, 2021, 03:31:31 PM
Roy - hopefully you can view this link. This is a really nice original K5 I had a while back - unrestored , so the photos may help as a reference point for you..,
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Post by: royhall on December 31, 2021, 04:37:16 PM
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on December 31, 2021, 04:48:24 PM
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Post by: Moorey on December 31, 2021, 07:37:28 PM
Now just past Gibraltar into the Atlantic.
Post by: Moorey on January 01, 2022, 10:39:54 PM
Just docking at Sines Portugal.
Post by: JamesH on January 01, 2022, 11:16:29 PM
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Post by: Moorey on January 02, 2022, 11:35:56 AM
Clearly Chris is getting slightly obsessed with the shipping tracking now lol…
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It's just like been on a cruise. ;)
Post by: royhall on January 02, 2022, 11:36:21 AM
For me it's Orange, Blue, then Red.
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Post by: Johnny4428 on January 02, 2022, 11:50:56 AM
Post by: Deano400 on January 02, 2022, 12:48:45 PM
Post by: MCTID on January 02, 2022, 02:28:01 PM
Not the original Valley Green mine came with but I really don't like that so it was a no brainer. Gold seems to be very popular on the early K's but the gold and orange options don't do much for me I'm afraid.
The blue is another favourite of mine............
Post by: philward on January 02, 2022, 08:05:00 PM
Candy Antares Red was the first paint choice for my K4. It's actually a K6 colour, but I'm very pleased with how it turned out and I'd still choose Red again if I had to.
Not the original Valley Green mine came with but I really don't like that so it was a no brainer. Gold seems to be very popular on the early K's but the gold and orange options don't do much for me I'm afraid.
The blue is another favourite of mine............
How is your K4 coming along Alan?
Post by: Oddjob on January 03, 2022, 06:00:44 AM
I've got a NOS side panel in Flake Sunrise Orange and in the flesh it's not as nice as I expected. The flakes seem quite large and reflect the thinking of the late 70s when lot of really paints appeared with huge flakes that made the paint look rough to the touch.
Post by: Moorey on January 03, 2022, 10:34:54 AM
Just pulled away from the dock, next stop Liverpool.
I would also go with Blue. Simply because you see far more Orange,
Post by: royhall on January 07, 2022, 02:40:35 PM
Post by: Oddjob on January 07, 2022, 04:38:57 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 07, 2022, 05:16:50 PM
Avonmouth is the same and it's down to absences due to the dreaded lurgy, Covid. They're all running on skeleton crews and cant get the ships unloaded quick enough. My pals on the shovels down at Avonmouth and in his team there should be 14guys, today they had 7!!
Post by: royhall on January 07, 2022, 05:32:46 PM
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Post by: Laverdaroo on January 07, 2022, 05:54:45 PM
Post by: Moorey on January 08, 2022, 05:44:09 AM
Post by: royhall on January 08, 2022, 09:01:09 AM
Post by: heli_madken on January 08, 2022, 10:39:38 AM
From there he was pretty quick getting the bike to me.
In all I ordered the bike on the 23rd October 2019 and it was delivered to me on the 17th January 2020 so near enough 3 months.
Oh and this is where I am up to at the moment with it -
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Another couple of weeks and I will have the engine running
Post by: royhall on January 08, 2022, 11:48:37 AM
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Post by: heli_madken on January 08, 2022, 12:13:04 PM
Anyway apologies for hijacking your thread let us now how you get on with delivery, Ken
Post by: Bryanj on January 08, 2022, 04:30:14 PM
Post by: royhall on January 13, 2022, 07:52:38 AM
Post by: Sesman on January 13, 2022, 09:18:48 AM
Post by: royhall on January 13, 2022, 10:15:14 AM
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Post by: heli_madken on January 13, 2022, 10:37:30 AM
Next stage is for Billy to unpack all the bikes from the container, he sent me a few pictures they where well crammed in -
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I think it took about a week for me to get the bike once Billy took delivery.
I was like a big kid the day it arrived I couldn't wait to get at it.
Post by: Johnny4428 on January 13, 2022, 10:54:31 AM
Post by: MCTID on January 13, 2022, 11:57:18 AM
We were sending some Ingersoll Rand Compressors out to Thailand where they were going to be used out in the jungle. These were BIG Compressors and the Timber Crates were about the size of a large Garage. The Specifications for the Timber Packaging were a bit bizarre and called for some significant treatment against Termite (and other exotic creepy crawly bugs) Infestation.
We were used to this kind of stuff, but in this case we found it all a bit OTT as once the Compressors were unpacked, the Timber Packaging would be discarded anyway. But the Customer is always right - especially when they are paying for it !
Some weeks later, our Service and Commissioning Engineers oversaw the Compressors being installed on site and everything went well and we had yet another satisfied Customer........they sent us some photos from site and also some pictures of the Timber Crates - which had since become home to a couple of Families !!!
Post by: royhall on January 27, 2022, 07:24:12 AM
To be honest if people on here had not said they had good service I would be getting a bit jittery about this transaction. Hopefully I will hear from him in the next week or so. At least Barrow is only an hour from me so if required I can go in person and sort out what is happening. Another strange thing is that the eBay purchase has gone from my previous purchases page, is that normal. Also, other people on here were showing pictures he sent of containers arriving etc, I have had non of that. Come to think about it I am getting jittery about this.
Post by: Johnny4428 on January 27, 2022, 10:54:11 AM
Post by: royhall on January 27, 2022, 11:25:07 AM
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Post by: Johnny4428 on January 27, 2022, 12:15:30 PM
Keep trying Roy. Don’t be too disheartened if you don’t manage to get him right away, I think he is a one man operation delivering bikes and meeting others who collect, especially if he is just recieved a load of bikes.
Post by: heli_madken on January 27, 2022, 03:23:10 PM
Hopefully you will hear soon, Billy didnt actually contact me about delivery until he was actually on the road delivering the bike! Talking to him at the time of delivery he did seem like a genuine bloke.
Post by: royhall on January 27, 2022, 03:27:32 PM
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Post by: Johnny4428 on January 27, 2022, 10:30:19 PM
Post by: royhall on January 28, 2022, 01:18:36 PM
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Post by: K2-K6 on January 28, 2022, 03:07:59 PM
Post by: Johnny4428 on January 28, 2022, 04:20:41 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 28, 2022, 05:00:02 PM
I was worried for you and been tinking about it today whilst out in the boat.
Top news, well done Roy.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 28, 2022, 05:59:40 PM
Post by: royhall on January 28, 2022, 06:08:56 PM
But on a brief inspection, although rough most things on it are repairable and there doesn't appear to be any major damage. There's several missing parts and the rims look like they may be too far gone to re-chrome. It's clearly been sat for a very long time but the good news is that the engine turns freely on the kickstart. I will dig deeper on Sunday and post some pictures.
My main concern is the fact the drive chain is missing and somebody has tried to take the engine out, so just hoping there hasn't been a chain break that's damaged the cases. The bike appears to be just loose assembled so maybe the owner was going to break it for parts and found it was harder than expected. Hopefully that's the case or why else were they taking the engine out? If the crank cases are okay I think it will turn out to be a good purchase.
Post by: Moorey on January 29, 2022, 12:11:53 AM
Post by: smoothoperator on January 29, 2022, 10:21:51 AM
Post by: royhall on January 30, 2022, 12:30:49 PM
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Ten screws into the rebuild and already I'm looking for a good set of K5 crankcases. Although other models will fit I could do with them being K5 to keep the number range correct. This is the one thing I took a chance on, so looks like I gambled and lost. To be fair even if I had seen the bike it would not have been possible to see the break as it was buried in clear silicone covered in grease. Strangely the engine turned in all gears without any noises even though there's almost zero room behind there. Hopefully somebody out there will have a set available. I have repaired these cases before on Alan's (MCTID) engine but that was just a single chunk knocked out that welded back okay, this one is a spiders web smash.
I'm shutting the garage door for today as that's enough bad news for one go.
Post by: JamesH on January 30, 2022, 12:36:05 PM
Graham/Julie - do any of the spares pile engine cases help Roy out?
Post by: Johnny4428 on January 30, 2022, 01:00:19 PM
Post by: royhall on January 30, 2022, 01:03:27 PM
Post by: Laverda Dave on January 30, 2022, 01:05:56 PM
Hopefully with your knowledge you'll be able to repair the damage, the 750 James restored that suffered the same was like new after Graham repaired it.
Good luck with the restoration and please keep the progress photos coming.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 30, 2022, 02:41:01 PM
A long standing friend of mine (56yrs we've been friends) bought a Facel Vega 500 from Australia as a runer - it was competatively priced for a reason - when it came off the container he found that the automatic gearbox was loosing fluid faster than you could fill it up - the power steering leaked plus when he got it running at home the bottom end was knocking. He went back to the seller 3 months later and managed to get some money refunded - he would not tell me how much it cost or what the refund was but when he sorted the car and sold it he almost broke even. Turns out that despite the super Art Deco styling they drive like a camel - he managed to sell it via a trader so its gone to the US - he sensibly bought a E type coupe instead!
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 31, 2022, 07:58:40 PM
Roy - have sent you a Pm..I've replied to Roys PM to me now James.
Graham/Julie - do any of the spares pile engine cases help Roy out?
Post by: JamesH on January 31, 2022, 09:22:16 PM
Thanks Julie. I’ve also got a complete K5 motor here if he needs it..Roy - have sent you a Pm..I've replied to Roys PM to me now James.
Graham/Julie - do any of the spares pile engine cases help Roy out?
Post by: royhall on February 01, 2022, 09:36:46 AM
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Post by: Laverda Dave on February 01, 2022, 09:57:40 AM
Did the seller state the cases were damaged or was it just a case of 'Here's a barn find, non-runner, unchecked etc'?
Good to hear this won't be one of those projects that stalls at the first hurdle, good luck with it and the rebuild thread will be a good read.
Post by: Trigger on February 01, 2022, 10:45:17 AM
Had a few guys email me about people who can repair the cases, many thanks for that. I do have a local guy who's successfully repaired them in the past for me. Usually it just knocks a lump out of the upper case, but this one is a heavy smash with cracks radiating out like a spiders web. The cracks run as far as the output shaft seal and involve both upper and lower cases. With the amount of welding required it is unlikely that the cases won't distort. I have decided to go with James's spare engine and part out the bits I don't need to help a bit with the cost. But the suggestions are most welcome.
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To repair that much damage you have to bolt the cases down to a 28mm thick plate and do a little welding at a time, letting it cool down for an hour at a time. The last one i repaired that had a hole the size of my fist, took quite a few days. :o
Post by: royhall on February 01, 2022, 11:46:59 AM
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Post by: royhall on February 01, 2022, 11:51:38 AM
That's good news Roy and sounds like a plan is forming. Looking forward to seeing the photos of the actual damage as it will likely help others when looking for a 750 and the pitfalls involved.Thanks Dave. I actually asked the seller if he knew of a chain break as the chain was missing and the engine looked half out. But he said he didn't know and couldn't see without dismantling so I took a chance knowing it may be 50/50. Guess I just lost, but with James's parts were back on track. And don't forget it was dirt cheap.
Did the seller state the cases were damaged or was it just a case of 'Here's a barn find, non-runner, unchecked etc'?
Good to hear this won't be one of those projects that stalls at the first hurdle, good luck with it and the rebuild thread will be a good read.
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Post by: royhall on February 05, 2022, 10:07:05 AM
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Post by: royhall on February 05, 2022, 10:14:05 AM
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Post by: royhall on February 05, 2022, 10:50:48 AM
The rims initially looked okay to re-chrome. Unfortunately they have very deep corrosion pits on the outer edges (not shown in the pictures) that I think will be far too deep to buff out. So that will be replacement DID rims required, fortunately they are available. The chain guard has damage behind the shock on top of where the indent should be. Looks like someone has fitted slightly wrong shockers at some point and at full travel they have been hitting the guard. I suspect the bike has been owned by some monster sized individual as the shocks are set to the hardest preload and the seat is squashed flat at the front. McDonalds anyone?
On stripping the front brake there was not a drop of fluid in there and everything is seized rock solid with both corrosion and the crystalised remains of the fluid. I think some new parts may be in order there as well. The wiring and electrical system is a total write off unfortunately requiring new harness and sub harnesses. Both water ingress and Bubbas attention with his Scotchloks and sticky tape for the multitude of extra lights and silly extra's have totalled the system.
I was going to replace the tank and side panels with Yamiya ready painted items, but on checking the tank it doesn't actually look too bad. So Friday next week were having a trip out to Preston to have the fuel tank and oil tank dipped and phosphated. I will decide when that's done on the fate of the tank but it does look solid. If that's the case it will be a good cost saving to get it repainted. It has had a bad custom job done at some point where they have filled the badge indents, hopefully its just filler as the dipping will take that out. The side panels have also been filled so they are scrap as dipping plastic ends in a soggy mess. It's a shame really as they are not broken.
The carbs look like they have been kicked around the car park along with loads of corrosion. They are seized solid. A replacement set is on it's way shortly (thanks again James) so hopefully a good set can be made out of the two.
More soon.
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Post by: heli_madken on February 05, 2022, 11:39:10 AM
The bike itself reminds me a lot of my 550 which had sat outside in Scotland unprotected for a few years. With the exception of the carbs and engine I think most things you would have planned to change anyway, even the engine would have got a good working over so in my view it isnt too bad.
To me it all adds to the challenge and immense satisfaction when you have completed a beautiful bike.
I bought handlebar switches from here - https://www.cb-four.com/cgi-bin/shop/ (https://www.cb-four.com/cgi-bin/shop/) and found them to be quite good quality, havent had any problems at all with them
Looking forward to updates
Post by: royhall on February 05, 2022, 01:00:57 PM
Post by: Oddjob on February 05, 2022, 04:01:36 PM
I spotted this the other day https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224623350655?hash=item344c98537f:g:-wIAAOSwW4lhI5Eb Genuine switch, in decent condition, wires look good. That's if your going with the US version. Same seller has a lot of 750 stuff, take a look.
What's wrong with the right hand one, you said the casting looks broken but it just looks like it's missing a screw to me.
I do have some spare switchgear body parts so I might be able to help out. I'm also pretty good at refurbishing them.
Post by: royhall on February 05, 2022, 04:15:52 PM
Post by: Oddjob on February 05, 2022, 05:32:09 PM
I have some spare castings so might just have the part you need.
Post by: royhall on February 06, 2022, 09:06:53 AM
The left hand switchgear Roy, are you intending to get the UK version with the flasher/horn or the US version with just horn?Thanks for that. Next time in the garage I will get them off the handlebars and have a good look at them. Out of interest, how much would you charge me to restore the pair. PM me if you want. By the way, you don't happen to have a spare rear grab rail for a K5 do you?
I spotted this the other day https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224623350655?hash=item344c98537f:g:-wIAAOSwW4lhI5Eb (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/224623350655?hash=item344c98537f:g:-wIAAOSwW4lhI5Eb) Genuine switch, in decent condition, wires look good. That's if your going with the US version. Same seller has a lot of 750 stuff, take a look.
What's wrong with the right hand one, you said the casting looks broken but it just looks like it's missing a screw to me.
I do have some spare switchgear body parts so I might be able to help out. I'm also pretty good at refurbishing them.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 06, 2022, 10:17:27 AM
The quality was good though and if they had been correct for my UK K0, I certainly would have used them. Not sure they do the correct ones for the USA K5 model though .. only seem to list K4 ...... James will probably know.
Re-anodizing old ones is very difficult & expensive. You can get good results by dunking old ones in strong caustic soda, which will bring the black anodizing off in seconds and leave you a lovely base finish for paint. Then prime with a thin coat of black etch primer ( Clostermanns stuff is what I used) then coat with PJ1 satin back and bake at 150°C for about 20 minutes. Then 'knock back' the finish with Solvol Autosol polish. If you do decide to refurbish some used ones and you are short of any small parts .. just ask and I may be able to help. I had a whole bunch of switch 'innards' re-plated a while back.
Hard to say for definite but I reckon from the pics. that your existing sitches should restore pretty good.
Post by: royhall on February 06, 2022, 10:26:30 AM
Post by: royhall on February 06, 2022, 11:03:47 AM
Edit. Just realised that these are the things I either don't want to do myself or can't. Carbs, switches, clocks. My subconscious appears to be removing these jobs. How weird's that, and I never realised it.
Post by: royhall on February 12, 2022, 09:07:59 AM
Post by: Sesman on February 12, 2022, 01:28:34 PM
Fill in the V55 and append the NOVA number and VJMC letter of authentication. For VJMC you will need to supply engine number, frame number and photos of the bike, substantially complete- see their website for guidance.
The DVLA and customs have a common database, so it’s only the NOVA registration number they need.
The V55 is tricky and is populated by masses of superfluous information requests. Incorrectly complete this and you will enter a world of pain. I can provide a tick box guide if necessary.
Regards
Post by: royhall on February 12, 2022, 01:35:40 PM
Post by: Bryanj on February 12, 2022, 02:05:49 PM
Post by: Sesman on February 12, 2022, 02:06:50 PM
Post by: royhall on February 13, 2022, 10:42:42 AM
The engine will have to stay in the frame for now. I usually remove the engine by sitting it on the right hand side and lifting the frame off the engine. The problem I have just now is the points cover, although dented, is recoverable so I don't want to damage it further. As I don't fancy shelling out £300 for a NOS item I have bought a badly damaged cover off eBay for £3 so am waiting for that to arrive to protect the engine whilst on it's side.
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Post by: Oddjob on February 13, 2022, 10:46:50 AM
Post by: royhall on February 13, 2022, 10:52:01 AM
You modding the frame before painting so you can get the head off in the frame Roy?No I'm not going to bother this time. I did a mod on my 750F2 about 7 years ago because of the valve guide issues with that model and to date I have not had to use it. Although I also did a valve guide fix from the USA (cant remember the name of the place now) so am not expecting to go in there any time soon.
Edit:
Cycle exchange or Cycle X is the USA company that does the valve guide upgrade (Kibblewhite). Took over an hour to remember that, that's why I don't do pub quizzes any more.
Post by: royhall on February 13, 2022, 11:01:16 AM
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Post by: royhall on February 13, 2022, 11:08:26 AM
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Post by: Oddjob on February 13, 2022, 11:13:54 AM
Interesting about the strippers in Preston, care to share the name, might have a trip up there.
Post by: royhall on February 13, 2022, 11:44:09 AM
I doubt the fork caps or rear brake lever will come out great Roy, unless he’s a magician, little pitted to say the least.Yes I am being a bit hopeful about them, I guess I will just have to wait and see. The stripping company is Ribble Technology (Preston) Ltd, 2 Brierley Street, Ashton-on-Ribble, Preston. PR2-2AU. Telephone 01772 202227.
Interesting about the strippers in Preston, care to share the name, might have a trip up there.
Post by: Oddjob on February 13, 2022, 02:45:33 PM
Post by: royhall on February 13, 2022, 05:47:17 PM
Post by: Oddjob on February 13, 2022, 07:15:08 PM
If it leaks at least I’ll know and maybe I can get it brazed or have the small section cut out or just bin it.
Post by: royhall on February 13, 2022, 07:22:28 PM
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Post by: Oddjob on February 13, 2022, 07:41:22 PM
Thanks for the info.
I know the 750 points covers have gone through the roof Roy but your really going to get that chromed? TTR400 does some lovely alloy ones engraved with the old fashioned Honda wing, cheaper than buying a new one these days and he’s coming over later this year so he should be able to bring it over to save postage. If you wanted it shiny maybe ask him for a bare alloy one and I’ll mirror polish it for you FOC.
Post by: royhall on February 13, 2022, 08:38:18 PM
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on February 14, 2022, 09:37:29 AM
Chromers say they can straighten it out, so considering the price for 18 items I thought I would let them have a go. If it's crap it was heading for the bin anyway.
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Who are you using for chrome these days Roy? I switched from $%££% to Prestige and so far so good. Pity 'cos $%££% excellent when I 1st tried him out but deffo went downhill last time I used him
Post by: royhall on February 14, 2022, 10:59:51 AM
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Post by: JamesH on February 14, 2022, 03:10:04 PM
For mine it's £57 plus vat mainly due to the extra work required to remove all the heavy rust inside. They use a heat cycle method to remove the paint and filler, then chemicals to remove the rust. Then it's phosphated to prevent flash corrosion.Roy - I'm curious. Do they clean it in a pyrolitic oven to remove the paint / de-rust?
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Post by: royhall on February 14, 2022, 04:57:44 PM
Post by: Lobo on February 14, 2022, 09:57:05 PM
I’m away from home right now, but if interested will post pics.
Price, if interested, upon receipt the postage costs + give me what you’d have sold them to me for…
Let me know,
Simon
Post by: royhall on February 14, 2022, 10:29:34 PM
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Post by: Lobo on February 16, 2022, 07:14:07 AM
Anyhoo; Roy, it’s a while since they’ve seen the light of day, and nope, they’re not black braiding but high pressure black hose. Which is fairly cracked in places - hence me renewing ‘em some time ago.
Anyways, have a look, and depending upon what Trigger has to offer get back to me.
Cheers,
Simon
Post by: Lobo on February 16, 2022, 07:20:21 AM
As I rebuild the K2 I may try this on my SS Braided pipes - if it looks / becomes shabby it’ll simply be a case of cutting it away. Worth a try?
https://www.jaycar.com.au/search/?q=Heat%20shrink:relevance&page=1
Post by: Crispy on February 16, 2022, 03:55:37 PM
Post by: royhall on February 17, 2022, 12:12:20 PM
Roy… I’ve been keeping quiet coz I’m such a long way away, but yep, I have a serviceable set of oil pipes off my K2 - though they really would benefit a recondition.Thanks for that Simon but I now have a good used set in the black braid. Good of you to go to the trouble of posting some pictures. Cheers.
I’m away from home right now, but if interested will post pics.
Price, if interested, upon receipt the postage costs + give me what you’d have sold them to me for…
Let me know,
Simon
Post by: royhall on February 18, 2022, 09:29:04 AM
Post by: Nurse Julie on February 18, 2022, 10:31:42 AM
Post by: royhall on February 18, 2022, 10:39:17 AM
Post by: Nurse Julie on February 18, 2022, 10:41:25 AM
That would make sense. But how do you know what the postage is going to actually be. A bit of a risk I think.I suppose I don't find it a risk because I buy from there very regularly, so am used to the system.
Post by: royhall on February 18, 2022, 12:22:20 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on February 18, 2022, 12:28:30 PM
If they quoted postage of 200 dollars at point of sale, about how much would you actually pay. Seems like a stupid way to run a business.. It's not a stupid way to run a business Roy. You must be buying loads of individual items, that all attract a postage rate per item. I only know what final postage rate I pay, relevant to what I purchase. I usually only buy highish valve items and the postal cost works out very reasonable.
Post by: royhall on February 18, 2022, 01:31:51 PM
Post by: taysidedragon on February 18, 2022, 03:01:37 PM
How else can you do it Julie? I have nine items in one basket and that's what they want for postage at checkout. I have requested a revised total from them and that's what they came back with, exactly the same. I cannot see anywhere on the website that says I will get an unknown quantity refund at some point if I fancy taking the risk. Now that really is a stupid way to run a business as I am not going to pay that sort of postage on one box of small fairly light items, so they lose the business. As you know, they are a strange lot to deal with, many of us are banned from buying off eBay due to asking perfectly normal questions. No, I'm going elsewhere.
Roy, When I bought pistons and other parts from them last year the postage seemed a little high, but not enough to put me off. I paid at checkout as normal.
A day or so later I got an email notification of a small refund for the revised postage charge. It seems to be how they operate. It may be peculiar to Cruzinimage or it may be how Japanese online business works. I've not bought from other Japanese sites so I have no idea. Anyhow, it wouldn't put me off buying from them again.
Post by: Sesman on February 18, 2022, 03:09:00 PM
Post by: royhall on February 21, 2022, 07:47:23 AM
Post by: sprinta on February 21, 2022, 03:39:20 PM
Post by: royhall on February 27, 2022, 08:52:27 AM
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There is a small dent to the front left side that really is nothing. The odd colour around the dent and the badge bars is where it had been lead filled for the custom job. The lead is now almost fully gone except for a few drips that will sand off.
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The insides that were quite badly corroded have come out spotless, and the underside that I was expecting to see rust swollen welds is like brand new.
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The system used on the tank is a heat process that gets the metal hot enough to remove lead filling. The rust on the inside was removed using a chemical process. To be honest the whole thing has worked out really well and there really was no other way of removing lead filling. The badge bars are slightly bent but nothing that cant be straightened out. There doesn't appear to be anything like pinholes int the tank but I am going to line it as a precaution before I get it painted. The process cost £65 inc vat, a lot cheaper than a new tank.
Post by: royhall on February 27, 2022, 09:47:44 AM
The frame appears to be in good condition with just a bit of surface rust so no worries there. I have removed the old bearing cups as I am going to fit taper rollers as I have done with all my bikes. In the picture below you can see what looks like a spacer on the bottom bearing, does this need to be removed to fit the taper roller.
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The bike was supplied without keys unfortunately but I have managed to get a pair from DSS for just a few pounds. The steering lock and the ignition are the same but unfortunately the seat lock has been replaced at some point so is a different key. Is there anywhere that can supply a seat lock to a key number as I would like it all to operate with the one key.
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I'm just at that point in the job where the bits can be overwhelming, and in such a small cluttered space it is a big issue. Mrs H was stunned last night when I said I wanted to go to the garden centre (I hate the place), but they do sell a range of keenly priced plastic storage boxes. I guess I will still have to stare at some Geraniums though.
I have resisted stripping the engine until all the other parts are sorted and away for painting/plating etc. The only thing I will take off the engine for now are the alloy parts so that I can get them away for polishing as it seams to take ages for them to return. Before the polishing can go I still need to strip the forks and the wheels. The wheels wont get stripped until I get the wheel bearings out as it's far easier to hold the wheel with the tyres still on.
Some good news is that the spare K5 engine has arrived (thanks James) and the crank cases look to be in good condition. The only downside is that the engine takes up even more scarce space and I also now have to strip two engines instead of one. On the plus side if anything in mine is suspect I have a spare.
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Post by: royhall on February 27, 2022, 10:03:39 AM
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There's a device on the electrics that I have no idea what it is, it's a little blue box that says "Safety Unit Starting Motor" on it. What does that do?
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Post by: Bryanj on February 27, 2022, 10:22:45 AM
Some later Hondas had just a diode
Post by: royhall on February 27, 2022, 10:26:09 AM
Post by: Bryanj on February 27, 2022, 11:22:50 AM
Same as the front brake light switch on cable front brake Hondas just different wire colours. Pushes through hole wires first with blade removed
Post by: BigAl (Alan) on February 27, 2022, 12:50:25 PM
Post by: royhall on February 27, 2022, 01:40:43 PM
Post by: BigAl (Alan) on February 27, 2022, 02:54:46 PM
Post by: Johnny4428 on February 27, 2022, 11:43:14 PM
Post by: royhall on March 13, 2022, 11:50:31 AM
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I have had a reply which shocked me at first but looking at the email again they are doing way more work than the other guy did. This is the email they sent me:
Good evening Roy,
Thanks for your email and sending the photos through.
To refinish all the components in a high gloss black would be £420 + vat, this includes stripping, phosphating for any tube internals, blasting, masking, a zinc rich primer and the polyester top coat. Which will give approx 1000 hours in a salt spray test.
We are approx 5 weeks turnaround at the moment.
If you would like any more information please don't hesitate to contact us.
Kind regards
George.
To be honest I don't think that's too bad considering the quality of the work is superb and some of the parts I'm sending out are pretty ropey. What's everyone else paying for powder coating as it's about double what I have paid before, but less than the quote to get it painted with 2 pack (and a good bit more robust).
Post by: Laverda Dave on March 13, 2022, 12:28:37 PM
Turnaround was 3 weeks. Coatings were the same as yours. Excellent company, I have used them three times in the past and never had any damaged threads, paint in bushes etc.
Post by: royhall on March 13, 2022, 12:35:29 PM
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I finally managed to free the rear wheel cush drive after a fight. I tried soaking the rubbers in all sorts of things, WD40, PlusGas, soapy water but nothing worked. In the end I used an aluminium bar through the holes in the hub and a hammer. I was careful to only hit the rubber so as not to crack anything and it came out eventually. What a filthy mess.
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Strangely the cush drive rubbers are still pliable and in good condition so they can go back in. The bearing retainer was a different story. I drilled out the four stakes, soaked the retainer in PlusGas, and heated the hub with the blowlamp but the bugger was stuck tight. I ended up knocking it out with a copper bar, fortunately it only damaged the retainer and not the hub.
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The forks on the other hand were completely different and virtually fell apart. I was going to send the tubes out for hard chroming but both have a rust patch on the working are that about 35 thou deep. I have no idea why that has happened but must be due to standing for so many years in a damp storage. However, it does make the tubes scrap so I will have to buy the pattern ones unfortunately.
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In the background of that picture you can see the sprocket hub now cleaned up (vapour blasting). To undo the bottom bolts on the forks I made the simplest tool ever, just a piece of flat bar with the end ground to fit the fork internals. Worked a treat.
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Post by: royhall on March 13, 2022, 12:37:27 PM
I paid £330 to Microblast in Windsor last year for the Kawasaki Z400J powder coating Roy. This was the frame, swing arm, yokes and 25 different brackets etc. They finished the top yoke, handlebar clamps and headlight bowl in a satin black as I asked them to.Was that plus VAT Dave. Seems like a good price. I have 23 items in total. The problem if I use them is it will require courier both ways and on such a big heavy item it would end up being more than my quote. I can deliver myself to these people as it's only 10 miles away. I will use that price as an example to try and get the quote down a bit though.
Turnaround was 3 weeks. Coatings were the same as yours. Excellent company, I have used them three times in the past and never had any damaged threads, paint in bushes etc.
Post by: Laverda Dave on March 13, 2022, 02:12:18 PM
Post by: royhall on March 20, 2022, 08:52:21 AM
Had a bit of fun getting the suspension bushes out of the swingarm this time. I used the old two socket trick with a length of thread bar, but this time they wouldn't budge a millimetre. A bit of heat from the blowlamp had them coming out nicely. For anyone that doesn't know this trick here are some pictures. And dont forget that when you have heated it with the blowlamp, don't put your hand on it. The blister has only just healed two weeks on.
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This afternoons task is to fill in the paperwork to get it registered. James has kindly annotated a V55/5 with all the correct boxes to fill in, this should make a doddle of a complicated form. If anyone is interested in this pro-former I will ask Steve if he can put it on a sticky somewhere or in Ash's cave.
Hopefully I will be able to do a bit more this coming week as work has calmed down a bit now.
Post by: smoothoperator on March 20, 2022, 10:52:04 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on March 20, 2022, 01:04:55 PM
Hopefully adding something useful to topic, It's worth using copper slip, graphite grease or similar on threads of extraction mechanical devices as it ups the load by some margin to help with shifting things.
Also on pullers, threaded ball joint splitter etc too. It brings them much closer to a hydraulic puller in the power they can exert.
Post by: Laverdaroo on March 20, 2022, 10:01:16 PM
Interesting thread Roy and good explanation of the strip down for others contemplating a restore project.
Hopefully adding something useful to topic, It's worth using copper slip, graphite grease or similar on threads of extraction mechanical devices as it ups the load by some margin to help with shifting things.
Also on pullers, threaded ball joint splitter etc too. It brings them much closer to a hydraulic puller in the power they can exert.
I've used the two sockets and a bit of threaded bar before but the copper slip thing is a top tip, thanks for that, thats geting logged. :)
Post by: Johnny4428 on March 21, 2022, 07:07:05 AM
Post by: Laverdaroo on March 21, 2022, 05:49:31 PM
Post by: royhall on April 03, 2022, 12:03:17 PM
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The carbs that arrived with the bike were in a bit of a state. They were seized solid and looked like they had been dropped. They also looked like someone had tried to get them apart. Anyway, James sold me a decent set so I could make up one good set from the two. I sent these to Gerben in Holland (read other post about messing up the import duty thing to the tune of £91). They are at the moment on route back from Holland but Gerben has sent some pictures, fantastic job. Before and afters:
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Will do more updates when I have time.
Post by: taysidedragon on April 03, 2022, 12:07:20 PM
Post by: royhall on April 03, 2022, 12:15:46 PM
Post by: Johnny4428 on April 03, 2022, 12:18:25 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on April 03, 2022, 12:29:20 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 03, 2022, 12:55:45 PM
Post by: royhall on April 16, 2022, 10:44:02 AM
Anyway, as you know from previous posts this one came with chain break damage to the crankcases and I bought a seized spare engine off James for the cases. That meant I had two engines to take apart and the spare engine was a royal pain in the arse to strip. I think it has been sat in a damp atmosphere for a very very long time. As it turned out, it was a good buy as it's given me the parts I required to replace the damaged parts in mine.
The chain break had been filled with clear silicone which had layers of old black chain lube and crap over it. I assume from the grease that the PO carried on using the bike after the cases got smashed. The gears have milled the insides of the cases and oily swarf is filling the bottom case, there was way more in the sump pan.
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The spare engine finally came apart after lots of PlusGas and heat, I was careful to make sure that if there was damage it wasn't to the crankcases. The only issue was one broken 6mm bolt at the front of the case that was rusted so tight I had to drill it out. I was expecting to have to use an insert to repair it but managed to drill it bang on centre and clean out the thread (that's probably a first for me). It is very slightly loose but I think it will be okay.
Although the original engine turned okay, there appears to be some damage to the crank. The damage actually feels very smooth so I'm wondering if it was caused by soft aluminium swarf or it's a surface problem on the crank itself. Possibly some white metal from the shell due to not being turned for years, I may try to polish it off. Anyway, the crank from the spare engine is in good condition although the alternator rotor was as good as welded onto its taper. It took heat, easing oil, and a sacrificial bolt and heavy hammer to get it off. Bloody thing has ruined my removal tool. At one point I had the removal tool, heat, oil, and a three legged puller on it and it still didn't budge. At least it's off now with no damage done. Long ago someone took the cover off the left side and it had all gone very rusty.
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Both the engines are now apart and the cases are nearly ready for vapour blasting. At some point I will have to go though all the parts and pick the best of the two for the engine rebuild. The parts that made it to the scrap pile were the top and bottom damaged crankcases, the cylinder block-pistons-conrods from the spare seized engine (again they are welded in there) the cylinder head from the spare engine (broken fins and two broken spark plugs plus all valve seized that tight they cant be hammered out). Shame about the scrap bits as I was hoping to sell the bits on to offset the cost of the spare engine. If it was a Brough Superior I would have salvaged the parts, but they were far too damaged to be worth it on a Honda. Anybody wants them there yours for the price of the postage. I am keeping the damaged top case until it's registered with DVLA as it is proof of the original engine number.
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There are lots of other bits done that I haven't covered yet. I really must try to keep up with the build thread, but it's a choice between being in the garage doing the bike or sitting at a desk typing. A clear winner there. Plus I keep doing things and forgetting to take photo's. Must try harder.
Post by: royhall on April 16, 2022, 12:24:20 PM
Edit: I don't need to keep the upper crankcase for it's number now the V5C has arrived.
Post by: Laverda Dave on April 16, 2022, 12:45:52 PM
Post by: JamesH on April 16, 2022, 11:20:48 PM
Keep the photos and progress updates coming - great news on the speed of the DVLA turnaround
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Post by: baggins on April 17, 2022, 10:37:50 PM
The postman has just called with my V5C from DVLA. Not too shabby, it's taken 2 weeks and 5 days including post time. Thanks to James for the V55/5 form that he pre-annotated with all the correct details. If anyone wants a copy of that just ask. I have checked all the numbers on the V5C and everything is correct first time out, including the change of engine number. She is now LFM 992N, and I have even remembered to declare it SORN as it's not insured yet.
I did a double take when I saw your reg number. I had my docs back at the start of the week for my american import K5, took a bit longer than yours mind, but I have the registration 986N. Small world eh!
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 19, 2022, 12:08:49 PM
Stick with it, mines in a billion bits but once the cases come back you'll be flying. Not an easy one to take on and I take my hat off to you for attempoting it. Its really coming on, stick with it and befor eyou know it you'll be on the good but which is putting new bits together and matching them with the old stuff....................my favourite bit, at least you can see where you're going and more importantly where youve been.
Like you, Im guilty of not taking enough piccies but I will, like you, try a bit harder ;D
Keep at it Roy
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 19, 2022, 12:26:08 PM
I think something was loose and managed to be dragged around the case. Hard to believe but how else would this happen?(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220419/c24b51c71ee9d73be2339431aa5f29e9.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: royhall on April 19, 2022, 12:59:10 PM
Sent from my Pixel 6 using Tapatalk
Post by: Bryanj on April 19, 2022, 01:56:07 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on April 19, 2022, 02:01:14 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on April 20, 2022, 12:42:39 AM
Post by: Oddjob on April 20, 2022, 03:40:10 PM
I didnt think it would but thanks for the conformation, another thing I dont have to replace......brilliant 8)
I just took 2 rotors off 2 old cranks I'm scrapping. Bit rusty but will clean up, if you ever feel like replacing it let me know.
Post by: royhall on May 01, 2022, 05:05:46 PM
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So whilst things are going well I moved on to the oil pump. It was a bit of a mare getting the screws out but got there in the end without any damage or need for new screws (thanks Mr Impact Wrench). I took the pump completely apart and everything got a really good clean in thinners. The rotors were as new and tested well within spec on the feeler gauges. The only problem was changing the centre seal as it was a bitch to get out (somebody out there has a secret to doing that). Fortunately I managed in the end without any damage and the new seal went straight in no problems. Got it all back together with a new gasket and liberal coatings in clean engine oil. I didn't do the usual packing it with Vaseline as I don't like the idea of deliberately putting petrol into the oil (although I realise that it's the way the pro's do it without any problems). Later in the build I use a different way of priming the pump so will touch on that then.
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Post by: royhall on May 01, 2022, 05:23:31 PM
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Other parts are out for work such as:
Vapour blasting with Higgspeed (the two stroke exhaust people). These I am collecting tommorow.
Chroming with Aaron at RestoreMyChrome. This will be ages, always is.
Zinc Plating with Niphos Coatings in Crewe.
Painting with Alex at Thornton Paints near home.
The next project is to try to get all the electrical parts as every single item on mine needs replacing. But that said I have a Boyer Bransden kit on the shelf with the micro coils so I will use that. Handy as my ignition advancer is rusted up solid and the Boyer doesn't need one. I also have a solid state regulator/rectifier spare that I bought for my 750F2 and didn't use. The fuse box silvers have in stock, and I already have a new wiring harness and sub harness for the alternator. Looking at the above I think this will be an easy project as I already have most of it. I will also need a starter solenoid and a horn (mine is rusty and doesn't work).
Post by: Laverda Dave on May 01, 2022, 06:33:22 PM
I watch with interest re the chrome and the timescales, I think I need to find somebody new as my guy has now stopped chroming due to environmental conditions.
Post by: Johnny4428 on May 01, 2022, 07:49:02 PM
Post by: JamesH on May 01, 2022, 07:50:31 PM
Post by: philward on May 01, 2022, 10:00:49 PM
I used DS supplied DID rims on my 500 (I built them up myself) but only been on the bike a year (in heated garage) and signs of rust showing - disappointed really
Post by: K2-K6 on May 01, 2022, 10:11:27 PM
Alan built my CR750 Rep Borrani (replica) alloy wheels (went to his house in Maghull on outskirts of Liverpool) - great job.
I used DS supplied DID rims on my 500 (I built them up myself) but only been on the bike a year (in heated garage) and signs of rust showing - disappointed really
You could try using castor oil on the chrome, lightly coat it and leave a couple of days, then gently buff it (not polish it away) it's highly water repelling and will likely stop any moisture going through porous chrome to pick up on the steel. Not what you'd expect for a chromed item , but may give you contingency to prevent it increasing.
Post by: philward on May 01, 2022, 11:39:34 PM
Sent from my moto g(50) using Tapatalk
Post by: royhall on May 07, 2022, 06:58:45 AM
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Looking at that picture I have just noticed what looks like a crack on the top of the upper case. That's going to need some urgent investigation. Maybe if I'm lucky it's just a casting mark.
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EDIT: Had a look at the top casting and its thankfully just a very shallow surface scratch.
I managed to get the original data label off the frame intact before it went for powder coating. A little bit of gentle massaging got it back the correct shape with the holes still good enough to rivet. The rivets I used were slightly larger than the originals due to the holes being opened up slightly. I also took the precaution of using clear silicone behind it. It's not perfect but I am more than happy with it. At some point I may just touch it in a little bit with a fine artists brush, or I may just leave it?
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The only other thing done this week is painting the rear cush drive casting and fitting the bearing whilst it was still warm from the paint cooking, yes I used the same Simoniz silver.
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This afternoon my urgent job is to go through the boxes and figure out where everything is and what new parts I still have to get. This is what a CB750 looks like stripped down along with most of the new parts. That lot doesn't incude the frame and engine castings, nor the painted parts that are out for painting. I really need a much much bigger garage.
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Post by: Johnny4428 on May 07, 2022, 07:02:20 AM
Post by: Laverda Dave on May 07, 2022, 08:58:13 AM
Post by: Oddjob on May 07, 2022, 01:50:26 PM
Asking because I kinda like the look of the Avon Road Riders and was checking on sizes for mine, I always go bigger than standard as that's how I raced the bike back in the day, so I decided on 100/90 front and 110/90 rear.
Post by: royhall on May 07, 2022, 05:54:32 PM
EDIT: It appears that the sizes I have gone for are OEM standard and it was the inner tube that was supplied wrongly. Tyres Honda CB750K1 / K2 / K3 / K6 (SOHC) 1970 to 1976 (bits4motorbikes.co.uk) (http://www.bits4motorbikes.co.uk/Honda/HondaCB750K1(168)tyres.html) Thank heavens for that.
Post by: Oddjob on May 07, 2022, 06:12:50 PM
Never noticed that before but at least you don't have to change the tyre, so that's good news.
Post by: royhall on June 18, 2022, 11:36:52 AM
I am also still waiting for the promised exhaust system that I paid a £500 deposit on last November with Colin at Predator Motorsports. Colin reckons the exhausts were already made but he was struggling to find a route from Japan that was cheap enough as container prices had gone through the roof. I have asked him via email recently about it but the reply was simply "Nothing yet" which doesn't tell me much.
I have mainly been concentrating on the engine for now. I had the cases/barrels/head vapour blasted then gave them a really really good clean to remove any traces of blast media. My jetwasher has a small nozzle device that is really useful for the small drillings along with the assortment of bottle brushes. Then after masking up they got three coats of the usual Simonize SIMVHT31D (worryingly I now know that number without looking it up) then backed in the oven at 150 degrees for an hour.
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They came out looking really nice so am well pleased. Virtually as soon as the barrels were out of the oven I took them to the engineering shop for a rebore. Once again I am using the Cruzinimage piston kit as the quality is very good and the price is excellent. The engineer worked to each piston seperately and gave them a 0.001" clearance. This was after an extended debate about it being too tight and it will seize. In the end a gave him a signed note that that basically said it's not his fault if it seizes. Anyway, looks like he did a good job just hoping he really did it to 0.001".
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Am hoping to get into the garage this afternoon and finally get the engine lower half back together.
Post by: royhall on July 03, 2022, 09:00:55 AM
I was very careful to make sure everything was stored correctly so there would be no mistakes putting it back together. The usual piece of cardboard makes a good holder to ensure that the valves go back in the same place they were born into. Likewise plastic zip bags and a marker pen work very well for the other parts. I have bags in a range of sizes from tiny to huge, cheap off Amazon. Later I will demonstrate how easily this plan comes apart with a 63 year old head in charge of proceedings.
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I went right through the gearbox checking bearings and looking for damage and all appears good. The bearings in particular felt like new so that was a bonus. I decided to replace the bearing in the lower case as it requires knocking out and they are only cheap. Unfortunately I ordered the bearing for the opposite outrigger housing so had to reorder the next time I was getting parts. So since I had the parts, the secondary shaft had all new bearings. On checking the cush drive rubbers in the chainwheel they were still soft and pliable so they too were good to go. Again that was good news as they can be awkward to do. It was surprising they were good as all the other rubber components were rock hard. Everything checked in the lower case then reassembly was straight forwards.
[attachimg=3]
The upper case assembly also went well. I have replaced all the main and conrod shells, and when working out it turned out that every shell was a green. Being sceptical the even Honda could be so accurate I broke out the micrometers, and sure enough all green. With the shells and housing carefully cleaned they were fitted and given a coat of Graphogen.
[attachimg=4]
The rest of the top half was then dropped into place (that sounds like I threw it in) without problems. Remembering to check at this point that the timing seal and half ring bearing locators were all in place. I have used all new primary and cam chains and also replaced the primary chain tensioner. The wheels on the old tensioner were as hard as steel.
[attachimg=5]
Next up will be mating the two halves. It's job stop at the minute as my tube of Threebond has gone chewy. Onto good old eBay and order some more. The courier likes bringing my parts as he is a classic fan with a Kawasaki Z1000 in the garage. He says he hopes I'm in when he comes so he can see the progress. What a nice friendly hobby, bloody expensive though. Next time.
Post by: taysidedragon on July 03, 2022, 01:28:57 PM
Post by: Laverda Dave on July 03, 2022, 02:04:06 PM
Post by: royhall on July 16, 2022, 08:40:45 AM
At this point I check that everything turns as expected, then the rest of the case bolts inserted and torqued down. I check again at this point that everything moves as should. Whilst the engine is on it's back I checked the primary chain tensioner was in spec. Although it's a new Honda piece you never know if it's correct, fortunately it measured to be at the very start of it's tolerance so that was good.
[attachimg=1]
Now at this point I went on to fitting the oil pump that I refurbished earlier, unfortunately I got carried away and forgot to take pictures. When the pump was in I laid the engine on it's side with the oil hose connections at the top to prime the pump. It is not possible to just fill the pump as the anti wet-sump valve prevents the air being expelled so the oil can't get in. At this point I remove the valve and fill the port with my oil can until it starts to drip from the pump then refit the valve. I blank the hose connection ports with rubber bungs to prevent the oil spilling back out when the engine is laid on that side for putting into the frame. I then fit the sump plate and the engine stand and turn the engine the right way up. You can just see the rubber bungs in the picture.
[attachimg=2]
Up next was to fit the new plus 0.5mm Cruzinimage pistons. They come in the kit complete with gudgeon pins, clips, and piston rings. Compared with some Cruzinimage items they are very good quality. Before fitting the rings to the pistons each one is placed into it's respective bore and the gap checked with feeler gauges. All were okay. I usually stuff the crankcase openings around the conrods with rags to prevent a dropped pin locator clip dropping into the cases. The pistons are fitted with the little arrows pointing to the front of the engine. I move the rings around to try and get the ring gaps distributed evenly around the pistons.
[attachimg=3]
The next part can be one of the trickiest, fitting the barrels. I am using new camchain guides and tensioner as again the old ones were rock hard. I am still amazed that the cush drive rubbers were in such good condition when all the other rubber parts were rock hard.
[attachimg=4]
To assist in turning the engine I temporarily fitted the alternator rotor. After liberally coating everything in engine oil, I lifted the two centre pistons to TDC and placed wooden blocks under them. I don't bother using piston ring compressors, although I have some, as they are more faff than required. After fitting the tensioner parts not forgetting to thread the cam-chain through first, I lower the barrels gently onto the two pistons and, using fingers, gently massage the rings into the barrels. Once the two centre pistons are in I remove the wooden blocks and allow the pistons to fall gently whilst holding the barrels until they rest on the outer pistons. Again I gently massage the rings into place and then push the barrels down onto the base gasket remembering to pull the tensioner forwards out of the way.
[attachimg=5]
Post by: royhall on July 16, 2022, 08:56:22 AM
[attachimg=1]
And even stranger, I had actually taken a picture of the mistake and still failed to notice it.
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Post by: royhall on July 16, 2022, 09:31:54 AM
So thanks Trigger. The full list of things Trigger says to check is on the thread mentioned earlier. Mystery problem on 750 cams (sohc.co.uk) (http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,28278.0.html)
I realise that the head gasket could have been reused but I decided to replace it anyway. I got a full NE gasket set from M&P for £52 so that was the cost of the mistake. The head went on second time around without problems. I use a length of coat hanger wire to keep the cam-chain from dropping down into the cases.
[attachimg=1]
The six rubber pucks should be fitted to cover the bolts beneath. I usually use some Threebond under the pucks to ensure a good seal. After cleaning and fitting the oil control valves with new o-rings then fitting the locating dowels I fitted the cam towers (don't forget to fit new o-rings to the blacking side of the towers). Carefully threading the cam chain sprocket over the cam, the camshaft was fitted from left to right, then after liberal use of the oil can and some Graphogen placed into the towers. The caps were fitted in their original places and everything torqued down.
With the crank set to 1:4 on the T mark the cam is rotated until the left hand ends scribed line is level on the tower with the cut out uppermost. The cam chain is then moved around the sprocket until the bolt holes line up the tightened into place.
[attachimg=2]
This time round the rockers slid in correctly and were all bolted down, again ensuring that they went back into their original positions. The tappet clearances were set whilst the rocker box was off as it's really easy to do at this point. The last on the list is to set the crank at 5 degrees from TDC and release the cam chain tensioner. After it springs forwards re-tighten the bolt and locking nut. Not forgetting to fit the speedo drive gear and new seal first, the rocker box was fitted in place and fastened down with all new screws as the engine came with a varied collection of mongrel fasteners.
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After suffering back problems last time I did a 750 engine, this time around I am going to leave off anything that can be fitted with the engine in the frame to reduce the weight. This includes the entire alternator and rotor assembly, starter motor and ring gear, all the gearchange assembly, all the clutch and baskets, and the points assembly. See I am learning. The engine is now ready to go into the frame. So children that will be tomorrows story, sleep tight.
[attachimg=5]
Post by: Johnny4428 on July 16, 2022, 10:23:48 AM
Post by: Laverda Dave on July 16, 2022, 11:48:02 AM
Post by: Trigger on July 16, 2022, 12:32:26 PM
Post by: Lobo on July 16, 2022, 01:24:41 PM
If you are using Part #3 (Guide overflow / top RHS’ish) pls give me a heads-up whether it fit it before or after the engine goes into the frame as it’s a relatively delicate bit of bracketry.
Post by: royhall on July 16, 2022, 05:49:56 PM
How are you going to do the fly wheel torque up with the top end on ? This should be done by putting a bar through the con rod small ends to lock the engine ;)That would be with my large strap wrench around the rotor Trig. That's the way I do it when I change starter clutch rollers. Works okay. Just out of interest, how do you retighten the rotor after a starter clutch change. Surely you don't take the top end off?
The engine has gone in okay with item 3 pre fitted.
Post by: Trigger on July 17, 2022, 06:20:11 AM
Post by: royhall on July 17, 2022, 09:06:59 AM
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I have started preparing for the engine install into the frame. I cant get a bike lift into the limited space in the garage, so as I normally do, the bike will be built up on the same adapted beer crate that I have used for all my previous builds. As every frame is different the crate needs changing to suit. On my 350F build I had to add a step to the top so the frame would sit straight, this time it needs a cut out to clear the side stand bracket. Three pieces of roof tile batten and a piece of plywood do the trick.
[attachimg=2]
A bit of old carpet tacked to the top prevents the powder coating on the frame from being scratched.
[attachimg=3]
Just as a precaution, I usually cover the frame in masking tape to prevent any dings whilst the engine is going in. The frame usually gets a gentle knock or two as the engine is a really close fit in the frame.
[attachimg=4]
When I built the Black Bomber I laid the engine down on it's side on the workbench and lowered the frame over the engine and bolted it in. Then stood it upright on the bench and lifted it down onto the waiting beer crate myself. With the 750 there is no way I am going to attempt this myself as the engine is just too heavy for one (unless your an ape with hands like shovels). So I will wait until a mate calls round to help on Tuesday night.
Post by: JamesH on July 17, 2022, 10:08:14 AM
Post by: Skoti on July 17, 2022, 12:41:15 PM
Some photos of my DIY method of refitting the engine.
Slide the bike frame across the floor to the engine and adjust supporting straps to the correct height accordingly.
(I nicked this idea from the USA SOHC web site)
https://photos.app.goo.gl/bT5X3iyGV89S47w26 (https://photos.app.goo.gl/bT5X3iyGV89S47w26)
Post by: JamesH on December 12, 2022, 01:16:34 PM
Post by: royhall on December 14, 2022, 01:54:20 PM
Another issue is my PC decided to die at the worst possible moment so I have just built a new machine and hopefully it will be up and running in about a week from now. I considered getting up to date on my phone but realised it was just too difficult.
I don't think there will be much progress now until the weather gets warmer due to my medical issue, but as soon as the new PC is up and running I will update the thread to where I'm actually at.
Thanks for your concern James.
Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk
Post by: JamesH on December 14, 2022, 01:56:05 PM
Sorry I haven't been keeping the thread going recently I have been a bit unwell for the past 6 months or so. I won't bore you with the medical details. There has been progress on the 750 and it's definitely not an abandoned project.
Another issue is my PC decided to die at the worst possible moment so I have just built a new machine and hopefully it will be up and running in about a week. I considered getting up to date on my phone but realised it was just too difficult.
I don't think there will be much progress now until the weather gets warmer due to myedical issue, but as soon as the new PC is up and running I will update the thread to where I'm actually at.
Thanks for your concern James.
Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk
Glad you're on the mend Roy and look forward to progress updates as and when. If you need any help with anything just drop me a Pm. James.
Post by: royhall on January 14, 2023, 10:02:54 AM
On the last post I was waiting for a friend to call to get the engine back into the frame. That went well without any problems. I used the tried and tested method of laying the engine down on it's side and lowering the frame over it. The worst part is getting the engine onto the floor, crikey those things weigh a bit. Sorry there's no pictures of this but it was a bit hard holding the frame and a camera.
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As you can see in the photo's, anything that could be fitted after the engine was in the frame was left off. An attempt to keep the weight down for lifting. It was a surprisingly tight fit in the frame with almost zero wriggle room, not something I would like to try on my own. Next up I started fitting some of the engines bolt on bits like the exhaust sleeves using new gasket rings and NOS screws to replace the ones I had to drill out earlier.
[attachimg=3]
I then had a change of direction and decided to get the swingarm sorted. The bushes were completely shot so I ordered a pair of one piece Phospher Bronze items of Nurse Julie (thanks). These simplify the process somewhat as it's a one piece part. The old bushes were quite easy to remove by carefully cutting along there length with a hacksaw then knocking them out with a drift. I also replaced the shock mount rubber bushes with NOS as the others were pressed out prior to powder coating.
[attachimg=4]
Around that time my chroming came back from the guy who for various reasons can't be named on open forum (sorry). It looks like a very nice job considering the crap that I sent him, and all for £375. He even made a good job of the dented ignition cover (worth it's weight in gold). If you check the earlier post where I was sending the chroming out you can see the cover is close to a write off. Impressive.
[attachimg=5]
I am a way off needing the chrome bits yet but it is good to know that it's back and a good job. Next thing to do is to continue collating the receipts and getting them all into a file. Not sure at this point how much I have spent on this project, but I have a feeling it's more than I will be comfortable with. More soon.
Post by: Matt_Harrington on January 14, 2023, 11:22:29 AM
Post by: Johnny4428 on January 14, 2023, 11:38:25 AM
Post by: royhall on January 14, 2023, 11:48:38 AM
Post by: Trigger on January 14, 2023, 12:40:58 PM
Does that clutch basket slide in easy as, the early 750's are easy to get in but the later engines had a interference fit and need to be pressed on the shaft while the engine is apart ;)
Post by: royhall on January 14, 2023, 01:11:55 PM
Post by: royhall on January 14, 2023, 01:39:33 PM
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I also fitted the new carb rubbers (don't they slip on easily when new). You will note from the photo that I was unable to source enough zinc plated clips. The outers are plated but the centre two are black. I'm hoping they will not be easily spotted once the tank is on, plus maybe some will show up before it's finished. I'm quite happy with it to be honest not looking too bad at all.
[attachimg=3]
I would normally assemble the front end first whilst it's still on the box as it's easier to handle with the front weighted down. But due to a need to get on with it whilst waiting for some bits I did the back end. It was a bit of a fight to get the swingarm in the frame and had to remove some pretty thick powder coating. The problem was that when the bolt was fully tightened the arm went stiff to move, but I got there in the end. I should probably have removed all of the powder coating behind the bushes before fitting the arm, which I may still do at some point. I built up and fitted the rear brake, shocks, and drive chain at the same time.
[attachimg=4]
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Once the drive chain was on that allowed me to finish fitting all the engine cases. The next problem was the grab rail. As mine was missing I sourced a pattern part but unfortunately they only appear to do a rail for the older bikes (up to K2 I think). This is fitted with indicator mounts for the much slimmer stems of the older bike. The challenge now is to find a way to fit the later thick stems to the older bracket, but I will find a way that wont be noticed (except I just told you all so the games up). ;D
Post by: Oddjob on January 14, 2023, 01:47:42 PM
Post by: royhall on January 14, 2023, 01:52:58 PM
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If anybody can spot from the photo's anything that has been done wrongly or not quite right please feel free to say so. Would be appreciated, thanks.
Post by: Johnny4428 on January 14, 2023, 09:24:33 PM
Post by: philward on January 14, 2023, 10:41:18 PM
Post by: Lobo on January 15, 2023, 11:13:10 PM
Before the rear frame area gets filled in, did you remember to grind away powder coat in the frame - engine area to guarantee a good battery earth? I didn’t 🤦♂️! (but then used the forward LH engine mount which tbh makes me happier as easier to keep an eye on / electrically clean)
Your rear sprocket studs appear to be shorter than mine (K2) in that the studs are shy of using the full nut threads. Is this normal for the K5?
Jealous of your chroming - I should have done a bit more, but like you was becoming very wary of the ‘where does it all end’ dilemma.
Post by: royhall on January 16, 2023, 04:00:56 PM
Johnny. Your right about the big washer, the parts book shows it as fitted to the other side of the shock. I will address that when I drop the swingarm again to take all the powder coating of the frame around the bushes. The swingarm works just fine as it is but I'm not happy with it.
Lobo. You must have eyes like a shit house rat. I didn't notice the short of one thread on the nuts when I was assembling it. The problem appears to be the new genuine Honda nuts. They came in four bags with the correct parts number, but when I compared them to the old rusty ones just now they are about one thread thicker. So that's the issue. They can stay like that as all the threads on the studs are used correctly. The other issue you mentioned was an O Fu**ing Hell moment. Yes, I have forgotten the earth strap, and worse I haven't removed the powder coating either. I will see when the swingarm is out if I can open up the frame a little bit so I can get a thin file in there. Failing that, can you post a picture of your fix.
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 16, 2023, 06:59:32 PM
the nuts that came from Mr Silvers for my ear sprocket were short a thread too. They're on and staying like that but I had to do the same and check them against the OE ones that came off it.
Bit odd? they were in sealed factory parts bags also.??
Post by: Lobo on January 16, 2023, 09:52:31 PM
Wrt the earthing, I genuinely submit that leaving the frame pristine in the original frame-engine earthing area will save you possible corrosion issues down the track - this area is pretty inaccessible once the bike buttoned up. (Of course you will still need to strip the frame of ‘coat immediately under the battery earth strap)
Through necessity (😬) I used a front mount, and as said, am much happier as now I can keep an eye, and better still, easily fettle any bared paint corrosion should it start. The powder coat has been carefully removed under the head of the marked bolt. You can easily guess, I don’t intend to have this bike apart anymore within my life!
(Comment… we ride in different climates; my bike never gets wet and this bolt is obviously more exposed. Otoh, the ‘OEM’ area may be wet at times too I guess.. just less seen!)
Post by: royhall on January 22, 2023, 11:19:33 AM
Before I turn my attention to the front end I have got some of the back done. As I always do, before fitting the mudguards I sprayed the insides with a liberal dose of cold galvanise spray. I'm not intending to use it in the rain but sometimes you get caught out whilst out on a run so thought I would give them some protection. It can't be easily seen from the outside but looks fairly neat anyway.
[attachimg=1]
The back mudguard fitted. The chrome looks a really good job even covered in greasy hand marks.
[attachimg=2]
Turning now to the front end a problem soon became apparent. I had previously bought a set of fork ears from Silvers at just short of a "sack of gold" as mine were badly twisted and dented and more than a little rusty. When test fitting the rubbers gaiters it was clear that the trim ring would not fit. I tried the gaiters on the old ears and it was all perfect so clearly the problem was with the Silvers ears. As usual Silvers disputed this and said they tried all their stock and they were okay but they would accept a return and refund so happy days. These are the pictures of the silvers item and genuine.
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
So not wishing to order the same again I thought I would give the Dutch suppliers a miss and order a set from Yamiya. After parting with "two sacks of gold" they arrived. The quality of the Yamiya parts was way above Silvers items and guess what, they fit perfectly. They have added to the bill but at least that problem is now solved.
[attachimg=5]
Post by: Johnny4428 on January 22, 2023, 11:50:10 AM
Coming along nicely Roy! On target for a spring time road run?😜
Post by: royhall on January 22, 2023, 11:51:03 AM
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Onto the front. I fitted new AllBalls taper rollers, after some careful measuring to ensure that the correct thickness spacer washer was used (a bit tricky). The bearing casings went into the freezer overnight to shrink them a bit and they went into place really easily. At this point I discovered a couple of things about the yokes. The powder coating had not been masked correctly (they said they would rather do it than me), and the lower pinch bolts which should be a fine thread had been tapped out at some point in the past to standard threads. So I spent the next two happy hours scraping out powder coating with a scalpel, next time I will do the masking. That done the yokes fitted no problem.
[attachimg=3]
Next up was to build up the forks. Sorry in the excitement I forgot to take the photo's, but there are before and after shots. I sent the original fork tubes out for hard chroming but they were returned as parts of both tubes had pitting too deep to be repaired. So that meant a set of reproduction tubes, not really my first choice but they look decent quality.
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[attachimg=5]
Post by: royhall on January 22, 2023, 12:00:26 PM
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Just a shot now of the fork yokes fitted with the Yamiya ears and new seal rings. Note the now non standard bottom pinch bolts.
[attachimg=5]
Post by: JamesH on January 22, 2023, 12:00:55 PM
Post by: Trigger on January 22, 2023, 02:22:35 PM
Post by: royhall on January 22, 2023, 02:40:48 PM
Post by: Trigger on January 22, 2023, 02:54:08 PM
It is always easier to fit gators to a 750 with the ears on the bench as, the ring will not move up enough as , it hits the bottom yoke ;)
Post by: royhall on January 29, 2023, 09:25:09 AM
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Post by: Trigger on February 03, 2023, 05:50:15 PM
[attachimg=1]
Post by: royhall on March 11, 2023, 11:00:16 AM
In the last post the forks were built up and ready for fitting. I took Triggers advice and fitted the gaiters on the bench, made the job really easy. No problems whatsoever with the forks fitting into the yokes, mainly due to spending ages cleaning all the powder coat out of the clamp area.
[attachimg=1]
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Before fitting the front wheel I took the opportunity of fitting the front mudguard, using new rubbers and spacers, along with the brake calliper swingarm. It's way easier to do whilst the wheel is out as you can reach the bolts easily.
[attachimg=3]
Next on was the front indicator mounts then the headlight shell. These went on now for no other reason except they were sat on the bench.
[attachimg=4]
I have had the brake disk powder coated in the centre boss then took it to Burton Engineering to have it reground as it had a few shallow scratches in it. I could probably have either left it or cleaned it up with emery, but you know the proverb about tar and ships. Looks like a new part now so well worth the £40 it cost. I built up the front axle with the replated parts, the speedo gearbox cleaned up nicely with a dab of Autosol and was repacked with fresh grease. Obviously all new seals were used.
[attachimg=5]
That's my 5 pictures for this post so will do another just with a few extra pictures. Appears that I have more pictures than words at this point, I think that is due to nothing going wrong on this part of the build so nothing really to discuss. Happy days.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on March 11, 2023, 11:06:02 AM
Post by: royhall on March 11, 2023, 11:06:20 AM
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Post by: royhall on March 11, 2023, 11:09:56 AM
As always your build is looking brilliant.Thanks Ted.
Post by: Johnny4428 on March 11, 2023, 01:26:55 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on March 11, 2023, 01:41:39 PM
Post by: Sesman on March 11, 2023, 02:29:12 PM
Post by: Oddjob on March 11, 2023, 03:42:39 PM
Yes, really nice. If anybody tells him his top yoke clamp bolts are in the wrong way round I’ll effing scream.
But they are, if the nut falls off the whole bolt slides out and you lose everything. Common sense really.
Can't hear you Phil, you started yet?
Post by: Sesman on March 11, 2023, 04:07:14 PM
Post by: royhall on March 11, 2023, 04:13:35 PM
Yes, really nice. If anybody tells him his top yoke clamp bolts are in the wrong way round I’ll effing scream.There wont be any need for screaming as that's the way round Honda intended. I have three sets of reference photo's of untouched bikes and all three sets agree so good enough for me. The stem bolt is in the correct way round as well.
There we go.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Sesman on March 11, 2023, 04:50:39 PM
Post by: Trigger on March 11, 2023, 04:52:50 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on March 11, 2023, 04:56:18 PM
Post by: royhall on March 11, 2023, 05:01:10 PM
I'm not trouble making - what are the spare lugs for on the right hand fork leg?Very good question Ted, wish I knew the answer, but they are there unused on all the reference pictures. Anybody?
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on March 11, 2023, 05:02:34 PM
Post by: Trigger on March 11, 2023, 05:05:05 PM
Post by: Oddjob on March 11, 2023, 05:59:02 PM
All I'm saying is that it makes far more sense to fit the bolt the other way round, if the nut comes loose you don't lose the nut the bolt and the D washer if that's fitted, are we really so anal that we have to fit things the exact same way as Honda did, especially if it makes no difference to how it works, it could have been fitted that way as it was easier on the production line, maybe the bolt was harder to fit when the clocks were already on so they fitted it from the bottom.
Mine will be fitted the other way round, what with the cost of those bolts these days it makes sense to safeguard your investment.
Post by: Sesman on March 11, 2023, 06:12:28 PM
Post by: royhall on March 11, 2023, 06:57:40 PM
Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk
Post by: philward on March 11, 2023, 07:07:12 PM
Post by: Oddjob on March 11, 2023, 07:25:56 PM
Post by: royhall on March 11, 2023, 07:31:01 PM
We all forget things Roy and that particular bolt is prone to not being tightened enough as we are wary of breaking the yoke, even more so when they are fitted without the D washer as the later type 7mm type is.Fair point.
Sent from my Pixel 7 Pro using Tapatalk
Post by: Johnny4428 on March 11, 2023, 09:01:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X4l3q2bjtY😂😂😂
Post by: Johnny4428 on March 11, 2023, 09:05:22 PM
Post by: Trigger on March 12, 2023, 10:24:45 PM
Post by: royhall on April 07, 2023, 10:00:09 AM
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on April 07, 2023, 10:38:31 AM
Post by: royhall on April 07, 2023, 10:53:32 AM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on April 07, 2023, 11:04:45 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on April 07, 2023, 02:43:18 PM
I think the red colour is more popular, well it seems that way in general conversation here, but I've always preferred them in blue and a very nice job they've done there too.
I'd be happy with that :)
Post by: Oddjob on April 07, 2023, 02:55:02 PM
Like the colour.
Post by: Matt_Harrington on April 07, 2023, 06:18:07 PM
Post by: philward on April 08, 2023, 08:45:59 AM
Sent from my moto g(50) using Tapatalk
Post by: royhall on May 14, 2023, 10:03:08 AM
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Having got over that little glitch I treated myself to an easy job fitting the front calliper and brake hoses. The original was way beyond re-use, in fact it was way beyond anything I have encountered before. So an new one was ordered from DSS along with new original pipes from somewhere else (can't remember where I got them now). Fortunately these just bolted straight on without any hassles, nice to get a job that moves the project on without frustration. For now I am not going to fill and bleed the system just in case something has to come off again, I will do that job just before it hits the road.
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At this moment the bike is still sitting on the beer crate so hopefully the next job will be to get the centre stand fitted and get it on it's own feet.
Post by: Johnny4428 on May 14, 2023, 10:09:16 AM
Post by: royhall on May 14, 2023, 10:34:47 AM
I really hate having to go backwards but it's more important that the job is done right. So to gain access I removed the rear wheel and the swingarm, along with the battery box. This gave just enough access to deal with the earth strap. The plan is to use the angle grinder fitted with a very thin cutting disk (for stainless steel) to remove the paint without having to take the engine out again. It worked absolutely spot on with the earth strap just requiring tapping into the gap and the engine bolt replacing. For all you Health and Safety fanatics, yes I know the guard is missing from the grinder, I had to remove it to get enough access (don't play this at home children). ;D
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On checking the swingarm bushes they appeared to be fitting okay in the swingarm so I had a close look at the frame. I usually remove the powder coating before fitting the arm but in this case that hadn't happened (my bad). On checking, the powder coat had a lump in it that turned out to be weld spatter powder coated over. As no welding was done on the frame, that must have been there causing a problem for nearly 50 years. I ground off the coating with an emery wheel back to flat metal and re-fitted the swingarm. This time it was buttery smooth. Result.
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Having reassembled everything I set about fitting the non standard regulator/rectifier to the battery box. I actually cut off the mounting on the battery box for the standard rectifier to make room for the combined unit (after first checking eBay to see if replacements were available). As the hole centres were different I made an aluminium mounting plate, and as you can see from the pictures it worked nicely.
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The next item on the agenda will be fitting the non standard Boyer Bransden micro coils.
Post by: royhall on May 14, 2023, 10:42:32 AM
Nice work there Roy! That’s a clean looking brake disc is that new?No it's a standard part that's been painted on it's centre and re-ground slightly to remove the minor scoring. To be honest it's better than a new part.
Post by: Johnny4428 on May 14, 2023, 11:27:59 AM
Nice to get it skimmed, thought it looked good. Had the 550 one done but my 750 one was ok.Nice work there Roy! That’s a clean looking brake disc is that new?No it's a standard part that's been painted on it's centre and re-ground slightly to remove the minor scoring. To be honest it's better than a new part.
Post by: royhall on May 14, 2023, 11:47:57 AM
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For the blue box control unit I decided to fit it behind the side panel with the rest of the electrics. As I have already fitted the reg/rec unit in there, available space is low. The blue box has no means of fastening so I utilised the mounting point for the original regulator. I made a flat aluminium plate that bolted firmly to the mount, then stuck the box to it with double sided Mammoth tape. You could stick you granny to the ceiling with that stuff. Worked out quite well but I was a bit concerned about heat from the reg/rec unit, but as Boyer say to mount it right on top of the engine I doubt that it's a concern. As a bonus, it's now close enough to connect the blue and yellow wires from the pickups without going through the harness, I will just need to extend two wires to reach the coils.
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Just a few more items to be fitted and I can start the wiring. Not really lookind forwards to that.
Post by: Laverda Dave on May 15, 2023, 09:15:26 AM
Post by: royhall on May 16, 2023, 02:59:14 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on May 16, 2023, 03:20:07 PM
I've been reading your electrical thread - very frustrating things vehicle electrics - you start off at one end a battery with just two connections then the spaghetti trail begins.
Post by: royhall on July 26, 2023, 05:03:05 PM
Post by: Bryanj on July 26, 2023, 05:24:38 PM
Post by: royhall on July 26, 2023, 05:31:51 PM
Post by: Skoti on July 26, 2023, 06:20:37 PM
I just drain the sump and pour the oil back into the oil tank through a straining filter.
I believe the term for this is "wet sumping", common on British motorcycles.
BTW
Did you replace the valve plunger seal 15166 300 000 with a genuine Honda one or an aftermarket version?
Post by: Trigger on July 26, 2023, 06:37:20 PM
Following holidays and an extended period of illness I have got back onto the 750 only to discover a bit of a snag. I have jumped forwards a little bit here but bear with me. I was just fitting the oil tank side panel and removed the cap/dipstick to get it in and I noticed that the dipstick was dry. The oil tank was filled about 4 weeks ago and it appears that roughly half the tanks contents have found there way into the sump. I have removed the sump plate with the tank still half full and dried around the area with tissue. At the moment it's still dripping a bit from the oil on the castings, will leave it overnight then see if I can spot where it's coming from. Is it even possible to connect the hoses reversed, I don't think it is. I fully rebuilt the pump when I did the engine, am beginning to suspect a mistake somewhere. Any ideas will be welcome. Cheers.
It is normal Roy. Some people call it sumping but, sumping is when all the oil goes to the sump.
Just start the bike up and it will return to the tank and once the tank is full again, ride away ;)
Post by: royhall on July 26, 2023, 06:39:11 PM
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Post by: Trigger on July 26, 2023, 07:25:16 PM
Thanks Trig. Whilst the sump plate is off I may as well double check that nothing is stuck in the relief valve.
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If you have the sump off, take the cap off, remove the spring and turn the plunger with your little finger to make sure it is nice and free, and not catching.
Post by: royhall on July 27, 2023, 08:24:51 AM
Mines does that when parked up during the winter months.Yes I replaced all the seals in the pump. The kit came from Trig/Julie so is probably a well tested reliable kit.
I just drain the sump and pour the oil back into the oil tank through a straining filter.
I believe the term for this is "wet sumping", common on British motorcycles.
BTW
Did you replace the valve plunger seal 15166 300 000 with a genuine Honda one or an aftermarket version?
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Post by: Martin6 on August 23, 2023, 09:25:21 AM
Following holidays and an extended period of illness I have got back onto the 750 only to discover a bit of a snag. I have jumped forwards a little bit here but bear with me. I was just fitting the oil tank side panel and removed the cap/dipstick to get it in and I noticed that the dipstick was dry. The oil tank was filled about 4 weeks ago and it appears that roughly half the tanks contents have found there way into the sump. I have removed the sump plate with the tank still half full and dried around the area with tissue. At the moment it's still dripping a bit from the oil on the castings, will leave it overnight then see if I can spot where it's coming from. Is it even possible to connect the hoses reversed, I don't think it is. I fully rebuilt the pump when I did the engine, am beginning to suspect a mistake somewhere. Any ideas will be welcome. Cheers.
It is normal Roy. Some people call it sumping but, sumping is when all the oil goes to the sump.
Just start the bike up and it will return to the tank and once the tank is full again, ride away ;)
That's the beauty of a full unit construction engine and gearbox. If you do that on old British bikes, you risk blowing crankcase to primary seals.
Out of interest, do these motors solely rely on oil pump tolerances to keep oil in the tank? No in line anti-sumping valves, etc.?
Post by: Martin6 on August 23, 2023, 10:52:47 AM
Post by: royhall on September 16, 2023, 09:54:36 AM
Post by: royhall on September 16, 2023, 10:00:09 AM
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As I'm not a complete imbecile I decided that I could probably manage to start a bike without killing myself or anyone else, that I would do away with the wretched thing. I could throw it in the same bin as that bloody beeper on the indicators. The bypass wiring turned out to be very simple. I just had to make up a little patch cable with two male spades and fit it as the picture. Simples.
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After sorting out the mess that is the headlight wiring I could hopefully move on to fitting the headlight and the completion of the wiring. Always a nice point to get to as wiring is not my strongest skill, especially with the non standard items fitted. After getting everything working I shortened some of the wires and made sure everything was insulated properly. You will note from the picture that space in the headlight is tighter than usual due to the indent in the shell. This is on USA bikes to fit that horrible indicator bleeper, or as I see it a complete waste of much needed space in the headlight. After sorting the wiring, I fixed some of it to the back of the shell with Gorilla tape (crikey that stuffs sticky) that made fitting the headlight easy peasy.
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What came next was another reproduction part shocker.
Post by: royhall on September 16, 2023, 10:25:06 AM
Post by: Bryanj on September 16, 2023, 10:29:35 AM
Post by: royhall on September 16, 2023, 10:37:57 AM
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So that's the electrics finished. I went round trying everything and it was all working correctly. Obviously as the engine is not yet running I cant check if the battery is charging or the ignition. That's for another day. Next up I have some large boxes that have been lurking in the corner of the garage for well over a year.
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Post by: Johnny4428 on September 16, 2023, 11:01:44 AM
Post by: royhall on September 23, 2023, 11:49:25 AM
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The left side went on and after centralising the engine stud the bolts tightened up.
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Next up was the refurbished oil tank. This has been taped up and carefully blasted to remove the old paint then re-painted using two pack gloss black. After painting it was carefully cleaned and checked for any blasting residue. I must have flushed it out at least 6 times. A good look with my borescope revealed that it was totally clean. I was a bit worried about the painter blasting it (I didn't know he was going to do it) due to leftovers getting into the oil. I didn't need to worry as he used rubber bungs on the holes and masked everything else then turned the pressure right down on the blaster. I fitted the second hand hoses that I got from DK as the ones with the bike were frayed and in a right mess. I fitted new aluminium washers and o-rings and tightened everything up. Of course the tank went on with new mounting rubbers and bolts (all these little bits add up to more than you realise).
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I thought next I would have a go at the bit I was dreading, painting the Honda logo on the rear of the seat. I was right to be dreading it as it went very wrong. I got a stencil off PIki which was firmly stuck in place after careful measuring. I then masked off the rest of the seat to prevent overspray. After ensuring all the edges were down I sprayed a first coat of clear to seal the ridges in the cover, followed by three light coats of silver Rustoleum PVC spray. I let it dry for a couple of hours then unmasked it to find this horror.
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I then spent a fun two hours trying to gently clean it up with a new scalpel blade, dragging it like a razor. This only worked to a degree but did improve things quite a bit. Next I ordered some black Rustoleum off Amazon for next day. With this I carefully touched in the nasty bits around the edges, It's not perfect but still good enough to use.
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You can see the black around the logo as it's a bit more reflective than the PVC cover (it looks worse due to camera flash, nothing like that in reality) so I polished the sides of the seat with wax furniture polish and now the shiny bits are blended better. After this fiasco the exhausts will be a welcome easy job.
Post by: Oddjob on September 23, 2023, 12:07:39 PM
Same with stuff like the brake pedal pivot pin, they get so excited about starting to put it together they seem to forget to do stuff.
Is the points cover a temporary affair as it seems quite dented, I know the price of these has gone through the roof so I wouldn't be surprised if you've fitted the old one until it's finished to save potential damage etc.
Coming on though Roy, starting to look the part.
Post by: royhall on September 23, 2023, 12:14:13 PM
Post by: Oddjob on September 23, 2023, 12:19:38 PM
BTW, mate of mine was trawling round Macclesfield superbike centre the other day and told me that an identical CB1300 to mine was for sale, must still be your old one.
Post by: royhall on September 23, 2023, 12:22:27 PM
Post by: Oddjob on September 23, 2023, 12:25:28 PM
Post by: Laverda Dave on September 23, 2023, 03:42:40 PM
Post by: royhall on September 24, 2023, 10:32:26 AM
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They don't look too bad on initial inspection, the welds are slightly saw toothed but that would be nit picking. They had sticky labels indicating 1 to 4 so no problems sorting them out. The clamping rings are also pattern parts as the bike came without an exhaust. The stubs were already fitted earlier. Not much else to say really as surprisingly they fitted straight on. No pushing and pulling, no trying to line up holes or anything, just straight on first time. Everything is straight and lined up. For pattern parts it's a miracle. Well done whoever built them. Some photo's.
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Now I'm getting somewhere. I was expecting a battle with these but am pleasantly surprised.
Post by: royhall on September 24, 2023, 11:01:13 AM
[attachimg=1].
I remember reading about someone fitting the side panel badges the wrong way round. So I checked on the pictures that James H sent me of an untouched K5 and did it correctly. Easy mistake to make if you don't know about it. The Honda feathered logo has the pointy bit forwards. As I don't want to lose them on some back road somewhere I put a couple of dabs of clear silicone behind them then fit the star clips. As I thought, the Yamiya panels fitted perfectly with some new rubbers of course.
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Last job before trying a start up is a tedious chore that I just want out of the way. Wheel alignment. It's time for crawling around on the floor again. It just needs two heavy weights and two lengths of sting. I tied the string to the back wheel as per the photo then round the weight. Same both sides. Then the weight is moved bit by bit until it just touches the the front of the back tyre, again the same at the other side. Then straighten the front wheel and see how even the gaps are, in my case a turn to the right was required. I unlocked the axle nut and using the chain adjusters moved the front of the wheel to the right. Then you have to do the string thing all over again. Like I said, tedious. Keep repeating this until the wheels are aligned, then tighten the axle nut. Don't forget to watch the drive chain tension, then nip up the adjuster bolts and locknuts. And don't forget the split pin through the axle castle nut, MOT failure. Simples.
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Post by: royhall on September 24, 2023, 11:14:31 AM
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And one just for Ken.
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In the next thrilling issue I promise I will try and start it. Scary moment but can't put it off any longer.
Post by: royhall on September 24, 2023, 11:51:58 AM
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At this point I removed the spark plugs to make the engine easy to spin over. I filled the oil tank to the top mark with 10W40 semi synthetic. Gave it a good kicking over with the ignition on to fill the filter chamber and oilways. The oil light went out surprisingly quickly. I topped up the oil back to the top mark and fitted new spark plugs. I previously bought some ethanol resistant fuel hose so I made up some slightly longer than usual lengths as I like to fit inline filters. The pipes were held in place with spring clips. I connected my test tank using a Y pipe fitting then discovered that the test tank valve was leaking. Cant stop now so I placed a tray under the tank to catch the drips (I will order a Sealey one later). I turned on the tank to let the carbs fill for the first time and left it a short while, luckily no pools of petrol on the floor, always a good sign.
So fuel on, plugs in, oil galleries full, fully charged battery. Nothing left to do now but get the fire extinguisher ready and press the button. Wish me luck.
Honda CB750K5 initial startup - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/shorts/SyKFbvahkWY)
Post by: mickwinf on September 24, 2023, 02:30:47 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on September 24, 2023, 04:38:18 PM
I really like them in blue too.
Post by: Johnny4428 on September 24, 2023, 05:18:20 PM
Post by: royhall on September 24, 2023, 05:25:29 PM
1. Check fluid levels, and check for oil leaks.
2. Check oil is supplying to both sides of the cylinder head.
3. Check oil is returning to the tank.
4. Check tachometer is working.
5. Check that the battery is charging.
6. Check that the battery is not over charging.
7. Strobe the ignition timing.
8. Vacuum balance the carbs.
9. Fit the petrol tank and seat.
Couldn't do the above before as the test tank was leaking badly, a huge garage fire is probably not the best plan. ;D So once the engine was started I removed it and emptied the petrol out and put it in the bin. The new Sealey tank has arrived today so the next opportunity I have I can get on with the list. The new tank looks to be a much better quality item than my old one. That said, the old one has done 9 years of service so not too bad. On the plus side the new one has the valve at the end of the pipe, the other was on the tank so every time it was disconnected I had to catch a tube full of petrol. Not ideal.
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Whilst waiting for the new test tank to arrive I got the petrol tank built up. Fitted a new filler cap and found that the pins are now located with circlips. Last time I did one I had to peen the ends over with my chain splitter. Much easier with the circlips.
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The clips that hold the bottom trims are a bit tricky. I wish I had opened them up before the tank was painted. Being very gentle I managed to tease them open without any paint pinging off or cracking. I was a bit concerned that the trims would not sit flush to the tank, but once the tabs were closed over them it pushed them hard against the tank side. I used a small block of soft wood and a small hammer to close the tabs. The trims actually look very good. I temporarily fitted the fuel tap to draw around it, then used a sharp scalpel to remove the paint from under the tap as left on the petrol tends to get under the paint and create blisters. Last job I drilled the paint out of the tank badge locating holes and fitted some new collets. The badges then went on with a couple of dabs of clear silicone. They were gently knocked home using the same block of wood and hammer.
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Just a little fun item that came off eBay, approximately the year the bike was born. All the proceeds (£5) were donated to a hospice, so a worthwhile thing.
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Post by: philward on September 24, 2023, 05:45:30 PM
Post by: royhall on September 24, 2023, 06:06:41 PM
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Post by: JamesH on September 24, 2023, 06:09:47 PM
Remind me - who prep’d and painted the tank and side covers. They do look superb.
Post by: royhall on September 24, 2023, 06:19:28 PM
Post by: Moorey on September 24, 2023, 09:15:27 PM
Well done with sticking with it Roy, that one would have been easy to abandon in the early days.
Post by: royhall on September 25, 2023, 03:12:25 PM
Post by: JamesH on September 25, 2023, 03:22:22 PM
Here's a little quiz for you. I have done a lot of work on the petrol tank for the K5 and it's not been test fitted since it came off the bike 20 months ago. After all the work I still had not noticed the problem with it. Looking at the pictures I posted yesterday the problem suddenly hit me. I am really surprised that you eagle eyed lot have never mentioned it. Can you spot the problem with the tank, answers on a postcard please.
The fuel tap's on the wrong side for a K5?
Post by: royhall on September 25, 2023, 03:27:07 PM
Post by: JamesH on September 25, 2023, 03:30:43 PM
Post by: royhall on September 25, 2023, 05:12:55 PM
Post by: royhall on September 27, 2023, 02:02:10 PM
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So all is good then. Well no not really. A couple of problems have shown up for next weekends project. It's not charging the battery. Probably a cable connection I missed somewhere hopefully. And it has a slight misfire on cylinder 1. Good thing about the mini coils is you can unplug the HT lead from the coil, so I shall swap 1 and 4 at the coil and see if the misfire moves to cylinder 4. If not, then I will change the spark plug and possibly HT lead and see what happens. I think it's most likely to be electrical but you never know. I may also check that the tappets haven't closed up. After that I will be stumped. Got the battery back on the optimiser ready for the weekends mission.
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I may be back at weekend looking for idea's. Cheers.
Post by: Oddjob on September 27, 2023, 03:10:05 PM
Post by: Matt_Harrington on September 27, 2023, 03:57:16 PM
Post by: royhall on September 27, 2023, 04:52:21 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on September 27, 2023, 08:39:43 PM
"So all is good then. Well no not really. A couple of problems have shown up for next weekends project. It's not charging the battery. Probably a cable connection I missed somewhere hopefully. And it has a slight misfire on cylinder 1. Good thing about the mini coils is you can unplug the HT lead from the coil, so I shall swap 1 and 4 at the coil and see if the misfire moves to cylinder 4. If not, then I will change the spark plug and possibly HT lead and see what happens. I think it's most likely to be electrical but you never know. I may also check that the tappets haven't closed up. After that I will be stumped. Got the battery back on the optimiser ready for the weekends mission."
From working on one the other day, my understanding is that you can just swap #1 lead with #2 as they all four fire at the same time, all of the time. It shouldn't matter which plug they are connected to. That's with full Boyer and micro coils system. It may help with diagnostic investigation.
It was Bills 400, which although it seemed to fire on all four with the pipes getting warm, #3 was, it turned out not running on idle jet, so it got warm from chiming in as you lifted throttle onto mains , but nowhere near the others for overall heat, giving some confusion as to exactly what was what. Inspection found a restriction in that #3 idle jet when taken out.
Post by: royhall on September 27, 2023, 09:23:02 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on September 28, 2023, 09:49:13 AM
Interesting you had difficulty with setting it on 350 as we felt that the instructions for fitment are slightly odd, a little difficult to fully understand what they are trying to do in set up.
It says set crankshaft to TDC firstly, then set all the trigger and pickup in a line with the backplate fitted fully clockwise ( in their picture, schematic) but then to set the backplate in the middle of slots ? From words in instructions. This seems to retard the ignition start point, which then has to be advanced when you strobe it, that seemed to then run out of slot length without reaching maximum advance when tried. Couldn't figure why that instruction line was there.
Went with leaving plate fully clockwise, set static point, then strobe to check maximum advance at above 4000 rpm, went correct straight away with no shift but to rotate the plate in accurately get it bang on the full advance marks.
Something it does seem to do though, looks like a condition of the "fire all" strategy, is give odd miss or popping effects if its out of correct timing as it appears to light off cylinders that maybe not on compression, blowing off the synchronization vac tube of a cylinder that did this.
Looks a good system though, but with a distinct different character to setting points up, which you need to get your head around.
Post by: philward on September 28, 2023, 11:17:17 AM
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Post by: royhall on October 02, 2023, 04:09:10 PM
I did notice that the engine got hotter on the number 4 side than the number 1 so had a play around with the air screws again without luck. I'm not too sure about these carbs that Gerben built as the choke doesn't appear to do anything other than kill the engine if lifted right up. Could it be a partially blocked idle jet, the engine starts (without choke) okay and once warm will tick over okay, just with a slight popping from number 1. Or could it possibly be a set of piston rings that are yet to seal and causing low compression, as there's a fair bit of vapour coming from the vent tube.
Any ideas would be welcome. Cheers.
PS. Sill got to tackle the not charging issue as well.
Post by: K2-K6 on October 02, 2023, 05:10:33 PM
The Boyer does a funny thing sometimes if there's a missed fire point, and may give that pop back through the inlet valve as it can fire it off at prior tge bdc with some charge in the cylinder and inlet open. Not a fault of the ignition, but shows other compromise in place.
That #1 pipe cooler than #4 is a giveaway I believe. If you run them down the road it heats them all from running on mains, which kinda masks the original cause.
Could try just blowing into #1 breather while its running to see if forcing a little fuel, via pressure in float bowl, in there will stop it popping temporarily.
Post by: royhall on October 02, 2023, 05:24:32 PM
Before then I would like to solve the charging issue, where's the best place to start.
Post by: K2-K6 on October 02, 2023, 05:46:10 PM
Unlike the F2 and some of the smaller fours, you're on your own for manual throttle modulation when using choke flaps.
Post by: K2-K6 on October 02, 2023, 05:48:20 PM
Post by: royhall on October 02, 2023, 07:09:32 PM
I was wondering about the throttle control on the choke, thanks for verifying that, am used to the 350F and the 750F2.
Post by: K2-K6 on October 02, 2023, 07:59:41 PM
Post by: royhall on October 02, 2023, 08:10:35 PM
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Post by: K2-K6 on October 02, 2023, 08:28:28 PM
Regulator controls output by switching a resistance into the white wire going to field coil if voltage is above target, to then drop output of all three yellow simultaneously.
There's really good description in original 750 workshop manual, section 8 if that's available on Ash's library roster. Worth a read through to get your head around layout etc.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on October 02, 2023, 08:30:02 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on October 02, 2023, 08:32:35 PM
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2oqrx5cvv7byqao/3-phase%20Honda%20Charging.pdf?dl=0
Post by: royhall on October 02, 2023, 08:33:45 PM
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Post by: K2-K6 on October 02, 2023, 08:45:22 PM
NOT RUNNING with all yellows disconnected it should give you resistance from one to another of not more than 0.2 Ohm.
Post by: royhall on October 02, 2023, 08:57:52 PM
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Post by: Bryanj on October 03, 2023, 02:57:03 AM
Post by: royhall on October 03, 2023, 07:12:11 AM
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Post by: Bryanj on October 03, 2023, 07:47:49 AM
A- B
B-C
A-C
And that is the ac voltage INTO the rectifier.
If you want to check DC OUTPUT of rectifier its red(or red/white) to green BUT not with battery disconected or the volts can go high enough to fry the diodes in rectifier
Post by: K2-K6 on October 03, 2023, 11:01:48 AM
I think as Bryan has pointed out before, the assembly windings are usually very reliable, with any check to see that the resistance is correct and that the output is at parity for each of the three yellow, then the problem will ordinarily be located somewhere else.
Often the integrity of those first three inline connections going to the multi pin can be suspected, and need verification before moving down the line to see what arrives at reg/rec and if it comes out of there.
The manual doesn't suggest a check in voltage of three phase (just that resistance check) output, just an ammeter on DC line out of reg/rec.
Post by: royhall on October 03, 2023, 11:45:52 AM
Post by: royhall on October 03, 2023, 11:47:04 AM
This is Honda Bulletin on 3phase alternator on SOHC FoursThanks for that Ash. I had a read through and I think it may have helped, not sure.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/2oqrx5cvv7byqao/3-phase%20Honda%20Charging.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/2oqrx5cvv7byqao/3-phase%20Honda%20Charging.pdf?dl=0)
Just to clarify something. The static voltage on the new AGM battery is at 13.1 volts. If this is classed as high voltage as in the document above, would that mean that the battery wont charge until the battery voltage drops as in scenario 3? That clearly shows no output to the battery. But don't forget the system I am on is a modern combined Rec/Reg so may be a different scenario.
Post by: BigAl (Alan) on October 03, 2023, 12:21:27 PM
To test - low voltage continuity, any combination should read 0.4 ohms (yellow to yellow x 3)
If you can carry out a high voltage test (100-250 volt) - any yellow to frame/earth it would confirm that the 3 phase windings are OK
Due to age a number of Japanese classics alternators are starting to fail... Image Kawasaki alternator windings (S1'S2s KH250's)
Post by: royhall on October 03, 2023, 01:32:42 PM
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Post by: taysidedragon on October 03, 2023, 01:58:42 PM
The problem I have with the above is that none of my 3 meters will read accurately at that setting. I'm getting 0.8 with just touching the probes together. But that said the reading across the yellows at the rec/reg is 1.1. So 1.1 minus the 0,8 is 0.3 across all three. So if that logic is acceptable the windings and cables are okay?
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You have to zero the meter for resistance readings. There should be an adjuster on the side of the meter, mine is a thumb wheel.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on October 03, 2023, 02:12:29 PM
The problem I have with the above is that none of my 3 meters will read accurately at that setting. I'm getting 0.8 with just touching the probes together. But that said the reading across the yellows at the rec/reg is 1.1. So 1.1 minus the 0,8 is 0.3 across all three. So if that logic is acceptable the windings and cables are okay?
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If you are getting the same reading on all three, then chances are they are OK. Like BigAl says though check for any resistance between the steel stator laminations and any of the three yellow wires. Any resistance at all is bad news of failure or impending failure of the winding lacquer insulation
Post by: Oddjob on October 03, 2023, 02:32:14 PM
I can't say I'm any sort of expert on the charging circuit etc but it makes sense to me and appears to be borne out by published books on the subject like David Sullivans book "Fundamental Electrical Troubleshooting"
Post by: royhall on October 03, 2023, 02:53:34 PM
With the engine running, the voltage yellow to yellow should be about 50 volts AC, yellow to earth should be about 17 volts AC. Are these correct values. (Schools in ;D )
Where do I test for rec/reg output, is it the red wire in the same multiplug as the yellows at the rec/reg. When tested it was showing identical voltage to the static battery voltage. I assume then that nothing is coming out of the rec/reg. Still got to test that something is going into the rec/reg.
Heads fried now.
Post by: royhall on October 03, 2023, 03:18:36 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on October 03, 2023, 04:01:07 PM
I have no voltage whatsoever at any of the yellow wires tested at the re/reg plug either yellow to yellow, or yellow to earth. Does that mean that the alternator is done. Think it's time to get the alternator cover off and have a look.
If you have decent resistance readings between yellow wires then the stator is probably OK, provided no leakage to the frame. You do need current in the field coil though to magnetise the rotor on the crank, which is controlled by the regulator.
Post by: royhall on October 03, 2023, 04:43:23 PM
Post by: Bryanj on October 03, 2023, 05:31:14 PM
If you dont get ac volts chances are the connectors at generator are bad
Post by: royhall on October 03, 2023, 05:41:43 PM
MODE3(seeFig.3). Battery voltage is excessively high; ignition switch is closed (on). The regulator’s lower set of contacts are now closed. The current paths are: From positive battery through fuse and field resistor, through the closed lower contacts of the regulator and then to ground. No current goes through the field (0amps), and the alternator has no output; therefore, no rectifier output and consequently a lower battery voltage.
The above could be happening due to a fully charged AGM battery and there is no actual problem with the charging system? I'm thinking 12.40 volts is the field coil switch on point. I may be doing all this for no reason, except a good learning day.
Post by: royhall on October 03, 2023, 05:43:13 PM
Check that the green wire from field coil goes to earth then temporarily connect white to battery positive then disconnected yellow wires should give the ac volts between wires THERE IS NO CONNECTION TO GROUND on this system.Cheers Bryan. I will try that tomorrow when it's reassembled. Green wire checks okay to earth.
If you dont get ac volts chances are the connectors at generator are bad
Post by: BigAl (Alan) on October 03, 2023, 07:23:51 PM
Then remove the white flag terminal from the regulator and fit to the common terminal on the meter (image attached)
Run the engine, the field coil will be fully excited, your meter may read 1.6amps (assuming a 7.5ohm field coil is fitted)
If no reading there could be a coil winding or earthing issue.
Post by: royhall on October 03, 2023, 07:42:13 PM
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Post by: royhall on October 07, 2023, 09:47:58 AM
That proves the charging system is working fine. What happened here was a classic case of too little working knowledge of the system. Previously if I was changing something like a rec/reg they come with instructions about what plugs where and that's all I did. There had been nothing wrong with the system all along, but very much not a waste of time as I now have a good knowledge of why things work the way they do and why I am plugging which wires where.
Thanks to all that helped with this. Just got the little problem with the carbs to deal with now.
Post by: Bryanj on October 07, 2023, 11:00:24 AM
Post by: royhall on October 07, 2023, 05:07:44 PM
Thats the thing with electrics, methodical and thought out testing and not just diving inYour dead right Bryan, and it is nice to find out that it was right in the first place and that means I got everything working first time. When it comes to electrics that's a first for me, I must be getting better. My knowledge has improved greatly.
The carbs are now back off the bike and winging there way to Matt Harper for building properly. I think Gerben made an outstanding job refurbishing the outside of the carbs, but inside not so much. Matt will sort them out, his work is first class. So as Matt says it will be 2 months (good people are always busy) I have finished building up the bike and stashed it under a cover in the corner.
What's missing in these pictures?
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
There wont be any more posts now on this for the next 2 months until the carbs are back then hopefully it will be a simple job to finish. Sometime whilst there away I will get out the paperwork and add up the final cost. I hardly dare look as it was over 10k ages ago. I guess it's money I wont fully ever get back but at least it's been fun (mainly).
Post by: Bryanj on October 07, 2023, 06:12:51 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on October 08, 2023, 08:26:06 AM
The electrics section in earlier Honda workshop manual is really good reference to working on the charging etc. Very good detail generally, that did appear to be similar in Ted's Clymer manual too, with good overview from the parts shown.
Nothing like step through hands on experience to help in understanding though, definitely a bonus to get your head around things.
Post by: Bryanj on October 08, 2023, 08:39:18 AM
Post by: royhall on October 08, 2023, 11:37:23 AM
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Post by: Johnny4428 on October 08, 2023, 12:19:30 PM
Not cheap but do a nice job. Used them twice.
Post by: Bryanj on October 08, 2023, 02:44:50 PM
He did have a bad health episode a while back and was winding down a bit so not sure if he is still doing seats, Morretti was the last name i think
Post by: Nurse Julie on October 08, 2023, 02:50:53 PM
Bob the seat in forest of dean used to be the go to man, supplied all the covers to ds.Bob has closed the company Bryan and has sold off all his material stocks and the metal plates that heat and press the seat covers etc.
He did have a bad health episode a while back and was winding down a bit so not sure if he is still doing seats, Morretti was the last name i think
Post by: Bryanj on October 08, 2023, 02:57:39 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on October 08, 2023, 03:05:32 PM
Did not know that Julie but not surprised, do we know where they went?Yes, I do as I was discussing it with someone a few weeks ago but for the life of me I can't remember who bought everything. I know it wasn't P&K though.
Edit..... I remembered 😊😊😊😊
Saddle Craft
Unit 1 Evans Yard
Templetown
South Shields,
NE33 5SH
0191 455 6262
Bryan..... Bob's surname was Dillinger.
Post by: royhall on October 08, 2023, 03:18:31 PM
Post by: royhall on October 08, 2023, 03:21:31 PM
Here's the link. Saddle Craft (https://www.saddlecraft.co.uk/)Did not know that Julie but not surprised, do we know where they went?Yes, I do as I was discussing it with someone a few weeks ago but for the life of me I can't remember who bought everything. I know it wasn't P&K though.
Edit..... I remembered 😊😊😊😊
Saddle Craft
Unit 1 Evans Yard
Templetown
South Shields,
NE33 5SH
0191 455 6262
Bryan..... Bob's surname was Dillinger.
Post by: Bryanj on October 08, 2023, 05:14:25 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on October 08, 2023, 05:35:37 PM
Thats about 2 miles from where i went to college
Chelsea Cat Bryan? :D
Post by: Bryanj on October 08, 2023, 05:51:06 PM
Post by: Bristolbadger on October 17, 2023, 07:56:27 PM
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Post by: royhall on March 06, 2024, 03:10:44 PM
[attachimg=1]
[attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
[attachimg=4]
Post by: JamesH on March 06, 2024, 03:12:31 PM
Post by: royhall on March 06, 2024, 03:13:55 PM
Post by: taysidedragon on March 06, 2024, 03:38:12 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on March 06, 2024, 03:41:18 PM
Post by: royhall on March 06, 2024, 03:51:43 PM
Well done Roy, thats a real credit to you and your determination. Enjoy.Thanks Julie. Those choke lever arms you sent me did the trick. I must say Matt Harper really know his onions when it comes to carbs, what a shame Gerben wasn't as careful. That wasn't the only problem Matt found either, even down to partially blocked brassware that hadn't been cleaned properly. I think me and Gerben are done now.
Post by: Nurse Julie on March 06, 2024, 03:55:15 PM
I've been referring quite a few people to Matt recently, not only is it easier than sending to Gerben these days but Matt uses my Viton carb O ring kits on his refurbs😊😊😊😊Well done Roy, thats a real credit to you and your determination. Enjoy.Thanks Julie. Those choke lever arms you sent me did the trick. I must say Matt Harper really know his onions when it comes to carbs, what a shame Gerben wasn't as careful. That wasn't the only problem Matt found either, even down to partially blocked brassware that hadn't been cleaned properly. I think me and Gerben are done now.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on March 06, 2024, 04:02:40 PM
Post by: royhall on March 06, 2024, 04:29:43 PM
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on March 06, 2024, 04:53:51 PM
It is Ted. The one that looks like it was caught magnet fishing off Wigan Pier.
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You must be chuffed to bits it looks brilliant - a 750 would need a Big Magnet. lol
Post by: MCTID on March 06, 2024, 04:57:07 PM
I'm privileged as I have seen your splendid CB350 Four, CB450 and your GS1000 in the flesh and running so I am able to say just what a great job you have done on all of them, and i have no doubt the CB750 will have reached the same standard of excellence.
Well done mate........enjoy the spring rides on it now.
Post by: royhall on March 06, 2024, 05:04:09 PM
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Rozabikes Tim on March 06, 2024, 05:27:56 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on March 06, 2024, 06:16:17 PM
I really like these in blue as well, a great looking bike after all your hard work.
Post by: Trigger on March 06, 2024, 06:52:11 PM
Post by: andy120t on March 06, 2024, 07:09:26 PM
Post by: Jan B on March 06, 2024, 07:58:53 PM
Post by: magpie114 on March 06, 2024, 08:02:47 PM
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Post by: royhall on March 06, 2024, 08:53:48 PM
Stunning build Roy. Looks like the same colour as my old K6. Did the bike not come with a original K5, K6 fuel tank ?Thanks for that Trig. That's the tank it came with. Didn't notice until it was painted that it was an earlier item with the tap on the wrong side. K0/K1 maybe?
Edit.
Just checked photos of all models and you are of course correct Trig that only K5/K6 had the tap on the left. First time I have checked that as it was already painted so it was going on whatever. It's not 100% correct anyway, although the Boyer ignition dates back to when the bike was new so probably counts as classic (digital classic).
Post by: Johnny4428 on March 06, 2024, 09:19:12 PM
Post by: davidcumbria on March 06, 2024, 10:05:22 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on March 06, 2024, 11:22:39 PM
Post by: Trigger on March 07, 2024, 12:00:51 AM
Stunning build Roy. Looks like the same colour as my old K6. Did the bike not come with a original K5, K6 fuel tank ?Thanks for that Trig. That's the tank it came with. Didn't notice until it was painted that it was an earlier item with the tap on the wrong side. K0/K1 maybe?
Edit.
Just checked photos of all models and you are of course correct Trig that only K5/K6 had the tap on the left. First time I have checked that as it was already painted so it was going on whatever. It's not 100% correct anyway, although the Boyer ignition dates back to when the bike was new so probably counts as classic (digital classic).
The fuel tap was on the right for the K0, K1, K2 up to 1973 in UK. The tap was moved to the right for the K3, K4 and still using tap 16950 and then went on to the bolt on tap K5, K6.
It must be a pain in the butt Roy as, your idle adjustment must be sitting right on the back of the fuel tap. When they moved the tap from right to left, they also moved the idle adjustment to the opposite side on the carbs.
Post by: royhall on March 07, 2024, 06:39:33 AM