Post by: mattsz on June 20, 2020, 10:56:47 PM
Does the "in/out" action of the clutch adjusting screw as I pull and release look normal? Click on the image for "video"... sorry it's shaky...
[attach=1]
Post by: mattsz on June 21, 2020, 12:04:44 AM
Check the cable routing is as Honda show it on the wiring and cable routing schematics
It is. I took care to take photos for reference when I removed it, and the photos show the cable run as matching the diagram...
Post by: Trigger on June 21, 2020, 06:40:36 AM
Post by: mattsz on June 21, 2020, 11:15:40 AM
TBH the action looks normal.
I woke up thinking about it - the other two bikes I'm "intimately" familiar with both have a shaft which transmits the linear pulling motion of the cable to a pushing motion which disengages the clutch plates. It appears that Honda uses some sort of threaded arrangement, or rotating cam arrangement, to accomplish that task? If so, I can see where that movement would be expected.
Quote
Disconnect the cable at the clutch end and try pulling the lever whilst pulling as hard as you can on the cable end, it should still feel easy if it’s routed right.
I will try this...
Post by: mattsz on June 21, 2020, 11:17:39 AM
Does the manual state clockwise ? If it does it is wrong like the 750 ;)
Trigger, I assume you refer to these instructions... are they incorrect?!?
Post by: Nurse Julie on June 21, 2020, 01:32:34 PM
Matt, the instructions in Haynes and the Shop Manual for the 400/4 are correct. It's the 750 manual that is incorrect, they get their clockwise and anti clockwise round the wrong way 🙄🙄🙄Does the manual state clockwise ? If it does it is wrong like the 750 ;)
Trigger, I assume you refer to these instructions... are they incorrect?!?
Post by: mattsz on June 21, 2020, 02:30:11 PM
Matt, the instructions in Haynes and the Shop Manual for the 400/4 are correct. It's the 750 manual that is incorrect, they get their clockwise and anti clockwise round the wrong way 🙄🙄🙄
Thanks Julie! I'll be digging deeper later today - unless I have to drain the oil to access the clutch release bits. In that case, it'll wait until I'm ready to drain the oil for other stuff...
Post by: Nurse Julie on June 21, 2020, 02:40:51 PM
No need to drain oil for that job Matt.Matt, the instructions in Haynes and the Shop Manual for the 400/4 are correct. It's the 750 manual that is incorrect, they get their clockwise and anti clockwise round the wrong way 🙄🙄🙄
Thanks Julie! I'll be digging deeper later today - unless I have to drain the oil to access the clutch release bits. In that case, it'll wait until I'm ready to drain the oil for other stuff...
These are the bit you are looking for. And no, the cups that the ball bearings sit in aren't worn, they should be like that 😁😁😁
[attachimg=1]
Post by: mattsz on June 21, 2020, 05:07:28 PM
No need to drain oil for that job Matt.
These are the bit you are looking for. And no, the cups that the ball bearings sit in aren't worn, they should be like that 😁😁😁
Thanks Julie! Now that I see how the mechanism works, I understand that those cups aren't worn.
But... I don't see how I can access those parts without removing the whole side cover - doesn't that mean draining the oil? The fill/dipstick hole are part of that cover. I scanned through your engine rebuild thread for clues, but didn't find any...
Post by: mattsz on June 21, 2020, 07:45:07 PM
Stick the bike on it's side stand, most times that will drain all the oil to the left and the clutch casing will be empty, you might lose a little but not a great deal. Leave it for a few hours first though so it really drains.
Ah... I wonder if that's what Julie meant? That job will wait, then, as the side stand is currently off the bike - as is the rear wheel and swing arm! I have plans to drain the oil soon anyway, I'll add the clutch parts to the list for that time...
Post by: TrickyMicky on June 21, 2020, 08:08:00 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on June 21, 2020, 09:49:14 PM
Yes, that's what I meant ☺️☺️☺️Stick the bike on it's side stand, most times that will drain all the oil to the left and the clutch casing will be empty, you might lose a little but not a great deal. Leave it for a few hours first though so it really drains.
Ah... I wonder if that's what Julie meant? That job will wait, then, as the side stand is currently off the bike - as is the rear wheel and swing arm! I have plans to drain the oil soon anyway, I'll add the clutch parts to the list for that time...
Post by: mattsz on June 21, 2020, 11:45:46 PM
Whilst still looking at simple solutions first, have you by any chance changed the setting/tightness of the small pivot bolt and nut on the handlebar lever, thereby making the lever bind in its housing? Just a random thought before you start any invasive surgery!
Simple is always good! In this case, no - in fact I disassembled the lever and cleaned and lubed it fresh. Without the cable attached, the hand lever pivots freely throughout its range...
Post by: mattsz on June 21, 2020, 11:52:29 PM
Yes, that's what I meant ☺️☺️☺️
;D
Now that I've exercised the mechanism quite a bit (after it's been sitting for about a year and a half), I'm finding that when I pull the hand lever very slowly, the lower lever moves in small creaky "jumps," rather than smoothly, like it's fighting stiction throughout its travel.
Definitely worth internal investigation...
Post by: mike the bike on June 22, 2020, 08:59:20 AM
Post by: mattsz on June 22, 2020, 10:48:01 AM
You're better off leaning the bike right over on something soft, you can then remove the clutch cover without draining the oil. I've replaced s few clutches this way.
I'll file that away for the future, thanks! But I'm draining the oil anyway...
Post by: mattsz on June 30, 2020, 05:22:11 PM
Post by: mattsz on June 30, 2020, 08:11:48 PM
[attach=1]
So now... any tips for removing the cover? I don't see any convenient prying points, and battering it from various angles with a non-marring mallet while trying to pull it in the general "off" direction yields no movement. I imagine if I manage to remove it, the gasket will likely be destroyed in the process...
Post by: K2-K6 on June 30, 2020, 08:27:47 PM
Post by: mattsz on June 30, 2020, 08:29:49 PM
Pulling the clutch lever, if you've still got it hooked up will try to push the cover out :)
Well, there's an idea! I can have it hooked up again in about a minute...
Post by: mattsz on June 30, 2020, 08:37:42 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on June 30, 2020, 08:46:29 PM
Try tying the clutch lever in against the bars and then tapping the cover gently to see if it'll release from the gasket.
Post by: Bryanj on June 30, 2020, 08:47:07 PM
Post by: mattsz on June 30, 2020, 08:48:57 PM
Quite stuck then!
Try tying the clutch lever in against the bars and then tapping the cover gently to see if it'll release from the gasket.
I held the lever with one hand, and tapped away at different angles with the other hand... I may have to resort to splitting the gasket with a sharp edge?
Post by: mike the bike on June 30, 2020, 09:58:07 PM
Post by: mattsz on June 30, 2020, 10:00:00 PM
Make sure you've removed all the screws and not left one in. It's the sort of muppetry that I get up to on occasion.
Me too... but not this time...
Funny story - which probably won't surprise some of you who have been at this rodeo for awhile:
I went back out to the garage to check... I don't know, something... and found a new pool of oil beneath the engine. What the... where the heck is that coming from?!? Turns out, from behind the clutch cover. I had tied the hand lever in to the grip and walked away from it with pressure being held - after about 20 minutes, the cover popped free on its own while I was the house. 8)
The gasket basically stayed stuck (thoroughly!) to the engine case; the cover has a few stray gasket bits. If I can't reuse this one, I suspect it's gonna be a job cleaning the old one off...
Unfortunately, the clutch release bits behind the cover look in perfect condition - clean, well lubricated and rust/oxidation free (they appear to get their lubrication from the oil splashing around the clutch, rather than separate greasing which some of the other old Hondas seem to require). I say unfortunately, because I was hoping for an obvious cause for the hard stiction-y pull of the lever. Could be the cable, I know, even though it's "new."
Could it be just from sitting for a few years without running? With no oil circulating around all the plates and springs, etc? I suppose I could keep digging and pull the plates, but I don't know what I'd be looking for...
Post by: K2-K6 on June 30, 2020, 10:53:37 PM
It's quite possibly the cable as a new genuine one is usually "oh so smooth" it amazes me when working on bicycles, just having the gear cable corroded in the last little loop out to the rear mech puts a huge amount of friction into the gear changes and far beyond all reasonable thought considering it's such a skinny little cable.
Post by: Bryanj on July 01, 2020, 07:35:38 AM
Post by: mattsz on July 01, 2020, 04:26:04 PM
Just drained the oil - what a messy job! As soon as I loosened the filter cover, oil begins to drain out where the cover joins the engine and runs all down the cover, through the fins... there must be an easier way...
Oil draining results in my Project thread, if anyone's curious...
http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,17461.msg203713.html#msg203713 (http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,17461.msg203713.html#msg203713)
Post by: mattsz on July 02, 2020, 01:26:04 PM
If the cable is non genuine and has been stood for a while it is very possible there is corrosion between inner and outer
I've looked through about 20 different sites, including amazon and ebay (US), and cannot find a single vendor who claims to offer, or have in stock, an official Honda clutch cable for my bike. A few list the '75 and '76 cables (22870-377-000), but not the longer '77 USA cable (22870-377-710). Anyone have any suggestions?
Post by: Bryanj on July 02, 2020, 03:08:12 PM
Post by: mattsz on July 02, 2020, 03:15:22 PM
Have you tried ring Dave Silver and talking to them explaining your problem, i have always had good service there
No, I simply went to their website and found no listing for it. It's a good idea, though... when I inquired about their out-of-stock reproduction silencer, they gave me a future delivery date, but then got back to me saying they had a discounted "scratch-and-dent" one on the shelf, which was perfect for my needs.
I suppose the next logical question is, if original Honda isn't available, is there a particular aftermarket brand that's known to be reliable?
Post by: taysidedragon on July 02, 2020, 03:30:33 PM
Have you tried ring Dave Silver and talking to them explaining your problem, i have always had good service there
No, I simply went to their website and found no listing for it. It's a good idea, though... when I inquired about their out-of-stock reproduction silencer, they gave me a future delivery date, but then got back to me saying they had a discounted "scratch-and-dent" one on the shelf, which was perfect for my needs.
I suppose the next logical question is, if original Honda isn't available, is there a particular aftermarket brand that's known to be reliable?
Venhills are generally good quality. I have some SlinkyGlide cables on my bike (can't remember which ones!) and they work fine, good action.
Post by: mattsz on July 02, 2020, 03:34:41 PM
Have you tried ring Dave Silver and talking to them explaining your problem, i have always had good service there
No, I simply went to their website and found no listing for it. It's a good idea, though... when I inquired about their out-of-stock reproduction silencer, they gave me a future delivery date, but then got back to me saying they had a discounted "scratch-and-dent" one on the shelf, which was perfect for my needs.
I suppose the next logical question is, if original Honda isn't available, is there a particular aftermarket brand that's known to be reliable?
Venhills are generally good quality. I have some SlinkyGlide cables on my bike (can't remember which ones!) and they work fine, good action.
Thanks! I suppose I should ask on the American forum as well, since UK suppliers probably cost too much to ship. I see there's a Venhill-USA site...
Post by: Bryanj on July 02, 2020, 04:00:04 PM
Post by: mattsz on July 02, 2020, 04:01:16 PM
Dont forget Silvers now has a US warehouse so may be able to get you one easier
Yes, thanks! The US location supplied that silencer...
Post by: TrickyMicky on July 03, 2020, 11:26:12 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on July 03, 2020, 12:13:40 PM
Venhill have been around here for years, located near me in Dorking village as I've visited over the years to get cables made.
Post by: billywingnut on July 03, 2020, 06:06:26 PM
Post by: mattsz on July 04, 2020, 01:34:52 AM
Dont forget Silvers now has a US warehouse so may be able to get you one easier
FYI - from an email I just got from David Silver's USA outlet: "Sorry to inform you today. The cable you require is not in our stock and now discontinued by all other suppliers." Actually, that's the whole email - sounds like a dead end to me...
Regarding getting custom cables made - thanks for the suggestion, I've already considered it and am investigating. I have the old rusty cable that came on the bike, and the replacement which is identical in every dimension, so no problem with measuring up for a new cable.
Venhill makes a universal kit which would require trimming a cover and soldering a barrel on one end. Never done that before, but I'm sure it can be done!
I take it that you have examined the clutch basket and springs, on my rebuild there was deep grooves in the fingers of the clutch basket that made the action difficult, I obtained a used replacement that has helped. Assuming all adjustments are correct, have you got the correct springs, have you measured them. Also, I route the cable through an eyelett as per the routing guide it didn't have one when I bought the bike.
No, I haven't. Worth a look, I guess, since the cover's already off! I wonder if any special tools are required...
FWIW - I rode the bike 5 years ago, and the clutch was fine. Over the two years after that, the PO added just 300 miles. Then it sat for 3 more years. I can't imagine that the clutch parts got that worn that quickly, but anything is possible and anyway that's an assumption based on no experience or knowledge.
The cable is routed correctly through the eyelet...
Post by: rosco on July 04, 2020, 08:55:35 AM
Post by: rosco on July 04, 2020, 08:58:26 AM
Post by: Bryanj on July 04, 2020, 09:32:18 AM
Post by: Bryanj on July 04, 2020, 09:38:47 AM
Post by: cliff7 on July 04, 2020, 09:58:32 AM
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=Ch1SIWYe&id=93CD96F470B4E565FD68903ABB56F2363CC8F02C&thid=OIP.Ch1SIWYe0j2ncPUsQIRGSAHaFj&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fthumpertalk.com%2fuploads%2fmonthly_2018_02%2f5a7d4b6b6b7b6_StuntClutchpulldevice5.jpg.54fed5de625db7fa9888cb1ab1bd97b4.jpg&exph=900&expw=1200&q=bike+clutch+cable+device&simid=608049343311643450&ck=7B9A579603B6155862EE6ABB572045F3&selectedIndex=0&ajaxhist=0
On browsing old posts I notice a site member once fitted one to their bike. Coincidence?
Post by: mattsz on July 04, 2020, 10:27:59 AM
CMNSL are doing clutch cables
Good idea - but I already checked... "currently unavailable." This clutch cable is unique to this 1977 North American variation - so I don't guess there's a lot of demand..
Post by: hairygit on July 04, 2020, 10:54:28 AM
Sent from my POT-LX1 using Tapatalk
Post by: mattsz on July 04, 2020, 11:01:17 AM
At the risk of upsetting purist's, why not fit European style lower bars and the cable to suit, they are plentiful and easily available. It would ride and handle a lot better as well without the wheelbarrow handlebars fitted to U.S. models!
I'm definitely not against that idea... I just thought it would be a simple job of replacing a few "consumables" to get the bike on the road and try it out, see what it needs. When did that ever work out?!? ;D
I wonder how the riding position would be... don't forget the US high bar models also have forward(er) foot controls... throttle cables might be adaptable... electrics no problem... brake line between MC and brake light switch?
Post by: Bryanj on July 04, 2020, 01:02:20 PM
Total cost will be more than a cable alone but is more "future proofed"
Post by: mattsz on July 04, 2020, 01:24:05 PM
Brake pipe use a stainless braided one, throttle cables use same madel as bars long electric cables tuck out of way.
My parts manual shows different throttle cable numbers for my bike... but I suppose a little too long is better than a little too short! ;D
Quote
Total cost will be more than a cable alone but is more "future proofed"
Exactly!
Post by: Bryanj on July 04, 2020, 01:53:03 PM
Post by: mattsz on July 04, 2020, 01:57:06 PM
What i meant was use the throttle and clutch cables from the same model as you get bars for, long cables can be as much of a pia as short ones
Gotcha - I thought you meant the throttle cables were the same for both models..
Post by: mattsz on July 07, 2020, 07:32:04 PM
Venhills are generally good quality. I have some SlinkyGlide cables on my bike (can't remember which ones!) and they work fine, good action.
Thanks! I suppose I should ask on the American forum as well, since UK suppliers probably cost too much to ship. I see there's a Venhill-USA site...
I just heard back from Venhill-USA making up a clutch cable...
Quote
This type of project would have to be managed through our UK office, which is where all custom fabrication is done. I would recommend contacting them regarding pricing and scheduling. The standard custom clutch cable pricing out of the UK is £45 per unit, which is about $65 US.
Plus shipping, I imagine? Yikes... Bryan's suggestion of changing bars instead is looking better and better...
Post by: mattsz on July 07, 2020, 07:47:17 PM
I know it's slightly off topic but when I bought my bike it had something similar to this fitted.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=Ch1SIWYe&id=93CD96F470B4E565FD68903ABB56F2363CC8F02C&thid=OIP.Ch1SIWYe0j2ncPUsQIRGSAHaFj&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fthumpertalk.com%2fuploads%2fmonthly_2018_02%2f5a7d4b6b6b7b6_StuntClutchpulldevice5.jpg.54fed5de625db7fa9888cb1ab1bd97b4.jpg&exph=900&expw=1200&q=bike+clutch+cable+device&simid=608049343311643450&ck=7B9A579603B6155862EE6ABB572045F3&selectedIndex=0&ajaxhist=0
On browsing old posts I notice a site member once fitted one to their bike. Coincidence?
I managed to miss this earlier... interesting rig. Does it attach to the handlebar lever?
I think before I do anything drastic, I'm going to finish what I started and get to the point where I've got fresh oil and am running the engine to circulate it properly - make sure the entire clutch is freshly lubricated and see how it feels...
Post by: cliff7 on July 07, 2020, 10:41:08 PM
Post by: mattsz on July 07, 2020, 11:30:49 PM
Post by: Bryanj on July 08, 2020, 07:01:16 AM
Post by: Bryanj on July 08, 2020, 07:32:15 AM
Would have to get the correct nipples for ends(need sizes) and need length of outer plus "free length" of inner.
This is NOT lined inner or outer so would need lubing ocasionaly but should work
Post by: mattsz on July 08, 2020, 09:49:11 AM
Now years back in UK you could buy cable inner, outer and brass end fittings to make your own. Would you like me to see if i can get the stuff and ship to you?
That's most kind of you Bryan - but not yet. That may be a viable option through Venhill here in the USA... and not too expensive. Just gotta learn how to solder a cable end...
https://www.venhillusa.com/venhill-universal-motorcycle-clutch-cable-kit.html (https://www.venhillusa.com/venhill-universal-motorcycle-clutch-cable-kit.html)
Post by: Bryanj on July 08, 2020, 11:57:35 AM
Post by: paul G on July 08, 2020, 12:19:21 PM
Thats where the fun starts, you have to birdsnest the ends and usualy use a small gas torch not ironSolder dipping pot best if you can get hold of one keeps the heat down on the components. :D
Post by: mattsz on July 08, 2020, 04:59:58 PM
Thats where the fun starts, you have to birdsnest the ends and usualy use a small gas torch not iron
Do you mean to tell me that the fun hasn't actually started yet?!?
Post by: K2-K6 on July 08, 2020, 06:02:23 PM
Just get the right size outside barrel dimensions and you can drill and file to shape before soldering. It's easier soldering to clean brass as well.
Post by: mattsz on July 17, 2020, 10:41:29 PM
I take it that you have examined the clutch basket and springs, on my rebuild there was deep grooves in the fingers of the clutch basket that made the action difficult, I obtained a used replacement that has helped. Assuming all adjustments are correct, have you got the correct springs, have you measured them. Also, I route the cable through an eyelett as per the routing guide it didn't have one when I bought the bike.
So I don't have a clutch nut removal tool - I'll either have to buy or make one. But I removed the springs and found that all the plates slide freely in and out a few mm... does this tell you anything about whether there might be grooves tightening things up further in when I actuate the clutch lever?
Post by: K2-K6 on July 18, 2020, 01:38:10 PM
The most movement is at the first clamp plate that the springs enact upon as that has to move to give the total cumulative distance for the clutch pack to rotate freely.
I feel notches generally give problems with drive takup as opposed to lever operation, as if a single plate "hangs" a bit on a notch, it first makes it slip, followed by the clutch grabbing faster as it pings off its resistance to fully close. Not convinced this will make it heavy to use.
Post by: mattsz on July 18, 2020, 01:55:34 PM
The plates only have to move literally less than 0.5mm each to effect a release, sounds ok to me.
The most movement is at the first clamp plate that the springs enact upon as that has to move to give the total cumulative distance for the clutch pack to rotate freely.
I feel notches generally give problems with drive takup as opposed to lever operation, as if a single plate "hangs" a bit on a notch, it first makes it slip, followed by the clutch grabbing faster as it pings off its resistance to fully close. Not convinced this will make it heavy to use.
Thanks! I'm just going to oil up all the inner release workings and put it back together for now. Hopefully when it runs and the oil circulates after a few years of sitting, things will loosen up.
I've got a new clutch cover gasket on the way - the old one shredded to random pieces which stuck like glue to both sealing faces (no adhesive actually used, I don't think). Cleaning off the engine face was just awful, very difficult to get in some of those tight spots and scrape off. I wonder if trying to saturate the remnants with some sort of solvent would have helped?
I'll be lightly greasing the replacement gasket so that doesn't happen again...
Post by: robvangulik on July 18, 2020, 06:33:01 PM
Quote
So I don't have a clutch nut removal tool - I'll either have to buy or make oneThat's very easy to make...
Post by: mattsz on July 18, 2020, 06:38:15 PM
QuoteSo I don't have a clutch nut removal tool - I'll either have to buy or make oneThat's very easy to make...
That looks even easier than what I was going to do! I was going to find a piece of pipe the right ID and grind one end to fit the nut, drill a hole in the other end to receive a tommy bar of whatever length I need.
I like the idea of something that takes a square drive, though - I can use it in an impact tool to rattle the nut loose if need be...