Post by: allankelly1 on November 16, 2021, 05:49:24 PM
Hope you are all well
Bike is off the road while I progress the rear disc conversion but wondered if anybody has ever cross drilled their discs?
I know the golden rules like the hole pattern most cover the whole disc face etc but does it make any different or is it just a style thing
As thinking if I am bored once the rear disc project is completed I may cross drill both the rear disc and the twin disc set up before spring time
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211116/fc3bd999445e29dddbd0046c37da5657.jpg)
Any thoughts
Best wishes Al
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Post by: taysidedragon on November 16, 2021, 05:59:54 PM
I don't think it matters too much as long as you don't weaken the disc.
Post by: allankelly1 on November 16, 2021, 06:05:17 PM
Like I said. The pattern must cover the pad swept area and the hole only slightly bigger than the the disc thickness
Think it time to cad something up
Also when I did the rear disc conversion I bought a spare disc so got something to practice on
as recon I will need to get some carbide drills due to the disc being stainless
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Post by: MrDavo on November 16, 2021, 06:49:53 PM
I've never seen it reported, and the bike certainly doesn't have them now, but I saw with my own eyes that the original NCR Ducati that Mike Hailwood rode in his TT comeback had radially drilled discs, ie the holes went from the edge to the inside of the disc. They were beautifully done, with countersunk holes and done at an angle making an airscoop effect, no doubt saving unsprung weight as well as cooling. Proper 'works' bike stuff.
I've never seen this in any article or photo of that bike, and no doubt when they wore out or warped they got replaced with ordinary discs, I've seen the bike a couple of times and there is no sign. However I know what I saw, so just recording this for the reference of google and internet could be useful to someone. I wonder if the current owner knows?
Post by: allankelly1 on November 16, 2021, 07:04:44 PM
Lovely
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Post by: Laverdaroo on November 16, 2021, 07:32:27 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on November 16, 2021, 07:35:28 PM
but my own work as found pic on web but love the design so thinking by of copying onto my front and back disc set up
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Post by: Laverdaroo on November 16, 2021, 08:04:33 PM
Loads has been written on the amount of drill bits people get through but I had absolutely no issue at all.
My pedestal drill is with the large in the container so had to improvise but worked a treat.
I calculated the curb as being exactly a 4” masking tape reel with 1/4” of tape still on it
Worked pretty good and looks ace. I’ll be doing the 550 the same when I get that far forward, just started the carbs
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211116/f9c9be3645c4c9c3ee79a7ef4f70cdde.jpg)
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Post by: Laverdaroo on November 16, 2021, 08:07:12 PM
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 16, 2021, 08:07:33 PM
Once I have sorted my back out I have a nice dividing head at work so should be a simple operation once I have worked out pitch and pattern
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Post by: Laverdaroo on November 16, 2021, 08:09:02 PM
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 16, 2021, 08:09:42 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211116/17b4dd360e1d1138d764fd5f81de3615.jpg)
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Post by: Laverdaroo on November 16, 2021, 08:11:26 PM
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 16, 2021, 08:16:03 PM
But definitely drilling as love that look
Thanks for the encouragement
Another project to do on the old girl but better sort out that rear disc mod first but recon I am almost there now I have sorted a disc locker design
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211116/6d529ee937ba5dde853a956311116685.jpg)
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Post by: Laverdaroo on November 16, 2021, 08:29:45 PM
Can't wait to put some ideas into practice and watching the threads you put up have proper fired me up. Your work puts mine in the amateur category but I love doing it all the same. I got notification that the steel-dragon air box has been shipped from the states so I'm about three nights in the shed away from a finished 400!
Keep up the photo posts mate, I'm loving ths one its brilliant!
Forgot to mention,
My eldest nephew saw that piccy of the your 400 under he streetlamp you posted a while ago and on the back of that he's booked his test!! He was blown away by it, well done Allan, another one in the club ;) :D :D :D :D :D
Post by: allankelly1 on November 16, 2021, 08:44:10 PM
Yeah, I saw that the other nigh, it looks bloody splendid when you poke it all together and the brake pedal too and on the bike. That's one pretty bike with some ace mods on. When I get my new workshop in the new house I'm hoping to have a bit more space so the lathe will be out...............finaly! Its an old sh**ter but its lovely to work on. ;)Yes that photo took my breath away too as it was taken by my darling wife in secret and sent to me
Can't wait to put some ideas into practice and watching the threads you put up have proper fired me up. Your work puts mine in the amateur category but I love doing it all the same. I got notification that the steel-dragon air box has been shipped from the states so I'm about three nights in the shed away from a finished 400!
Keep up the photo posts mate, I'm loving ths one its brilliant!
Forgot to mention,
My eldest nephew saw that piccy of the your 400 under he streetlamp you posted a while ago and on the back of that he's booked his test!! He was blown away by it, well done Allan, another one in the club ;) :D :D :D :D :D
Here is another secret piccy
Not quite the same but still very nice
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211116/e9fbf71d9376c77e688bdeadff76c109.jpg)
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Post by: Laverdaroo on November 16, 2021, 08:46:52 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on November 16, 2021, 08:48:31 PM
(Also may have some YSS piggy back shocks fitted too)
Maybe even may have that 460cc motor fitted but that going to need deep pocket
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Post by: Laverdaroo on November 16, 2021, 08:53:53 PM
Im struggling to find suitable shocks to go on the 550, the TEC ones are spoken of quite highly but they've been out of stock for ever. I've had Hagons which I thought were a bit, meh so looking for options without spending a fortune, for a piggy back pair at the min.
Post by: allankelly1 on November 16, 2021, 08:58:16 PM
Also will to do some changes to the front end such as fitting the race tech kit for the CB400F than as the correct springs and emulators and already have an idea for some adjustable preload units built from scratch
So may ideas and so little spare cash
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Post by: Laverdaroo on November 16, 2021, 09:01:13 PM
I'd be interested in looking at your emulators when you've fathomed it out.
Post by: allankelly1 on November 16, 2021, 09:06:54 PM
Also now I have the Dresda box section swing arm that runs on taper bearings things with good shocks at the back. There should be a better back end hence needing to sort out the front
Catch up soon Al
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Post by: Laverdaroo on November 16, 2021, 11:04:10 PM
By the way I'm not trained on a lathe either ;) 8)
I use this chap for my bits ne bobs and he did teh snapped bolt extraction and thred replacement for me. His workshop is like the spaceship Enterprise. He's wel regarded down this way and always really busy doing his core work on cranks and teh likes but he does stuff when you ask hiom and he's more thanqualified, some of the stuff he manages in there is awesome.
Ask for Dave and tell him its me thats put you onto him, he should be really helpful. He's a 'one and a half' man band so you'll get his answerphone more than likely but he always rings you back.
https://www.dyengineservices.co.uk/
Post by: Laverdaroo on November 16, 2021, 11:21:37 PM
You have to sift through a few to get a good one but some of the instructional vids on You tube are invaluable, even just for hacks. The 'Shermans' tend to go into the nth degree and piss about with 32nds and 64th's and it gets very confusing but some of the british lot are quite good. I tend to look when I need to as once Youtube opens up I'm guaranteed a late night down an i'nfo worm hole'. If I have an issue or a question I'll look it up on there.
Usually helps immensely.
I learnt what little I know from playing on a pals; he bought a 6' bed 12 speed monster from the Vickers tank factory in Leeds when they flattened it. It's still running today and I think it was built in 1930 odd. When ypu build in the 'nod' of the chuck and build it into your equation its fine. Ive only got a bench top Clark jobby but its really good for the money. Ive put some bits on it like a better tool holder and a bracket to make the body more ridged but it t urns a treat. All I would say is that if youre going to invest, get one with metal gears as the plastic ones shatter just for fun.
I generally only make spindles and spacers and a few cupped brackets for this and that and the like, its terribly satisfying. Practice with nylon blanks first and when happy fire out one in steel or ally. Be warned, once you start you'll find stuff that needs making on the lathe every day. Terribly, terribly addictive! :D
;D ;D
Post by: K2-K6 on November 17, 2021, 04:06:44 PM
Yep, as above Lathe turns the material and tool stays still, everything comes out roundy roundy and normally concentric ;D if all the bearings are ok.
Mill, the material is clamped with the tool spinning (various shapes) to generate ordinarily flat surfaces in it's basic form.
Disc slots, you'd ordinarily use a slot mill/end mill bit (like a drill bit but flat end usually) to drop into surface and move the disc along to make the slot.
Just a face slot with blind ends (finishing within the boundaries of the brake surface) you'd probably use a bull nose (rounded tip) end mill to give the slot radius and not leave sharp stress raisers at slot ends.
Slot going to the end of brake surface less critical and so could be square in form shape. We often did this to rear disc on 750s when contemporary as it clears the disc of crud in wet weather effectively, and going right to the outside will expell rain and dirt really well. Often you'd see this type of slot on rally car discs for conditions they run in.
For the holes, on a mill Allan mentioned you'd use a device a bit like a record player in orientation that's mounted on mill bed. Then fix the disc to it and you can rotate the disc prescribed amounts (with a handle and index plate) to make holes dispersed around the disc based on inbuilt geometry of the indexing plate. It's quite easy for someone with the right kit.
As mentioned about metalwork machining, went to see a college with my son a couple of years ago and get shown round the facilities. Walked through a big workshop with 20 lathe and 10 mill machines and I quote the guide " yeah these old machines you won't get to use, nobody trains on them now" :-\ sadly, most only want to learn computer driven headline processes now.
Post by: K2-K6 on November 17, 2021, 04:11:31 PM
[attachimg=1]
Stainless being far more tolerant and ductile is generally acceptable at much more geometric compromise without risk.
Post by: Laverdaroo on November 17, 2021, 07:04:26 PM
I simply and rather shamelessly copied another design and worked out the dims from what I had. I tried to get a course booked some years ago but pretty much faced the same issue as you, I'm searching for a tig welding course at the minuter but part from taking an NVQ but they're far and few between also. I reckon I'll just buy one and crack on practising, what could possibly;y go wrong ;D
I've always done that; have a problem, cant find a solution................teach yerself. When its you paying for it you soon learn quickly and you can always ask. I've mostly found people really helpful if I've needed to and there is the never ending resource that is the internet.
I made one cock up hole on the disk shopwn but its staying on as a reminder, Im just on with setting up a jig for doing the 550 disce, (doing a twin front) so we'll see how that goes but I'm fairly confident abd rather looking forward to it if I'm honest. The chap I mentioned earlier, Dave at DY skims the discs for me and last time I think I was ripped off) knows what he's on with. It cost me a whole jar of coffee, some yorkshire tea bags AND some chocky hobnobs!
I made my displeasure felt ;D
Wouldnt have minded but didnt even get a brew, the swine! ;D
Post by: allankelly1 on November 17, 2021, 07:51:06 PM
What do you think??
Don’t you love SolidWorks
Holes are patterned in sets of 3
with a second set of three that are pitched so the total pad area other than the outside and inside edges are covered and holes are only 6mm with plenty of space between holes to insure disc integrity
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211117/e6820acd151024fa3b82158c68925b5f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211117/c26480f48a048b5f0b333b1802a7557e.jpg)
Currently todays just been diagnosed with a slipped disc that I seem to have suffered about three weeks ago but up to now I managed work and home life with loads of different coloured smarties ever two hours for the last three weeks but now got surgery booked for two weeks time. Then once back to full strength after Xmas (as they said is about a six week recovery) I will modify my spare disc first shown below to see how it goes.
But in the mean time things ain’t too bad as Hopefully next week the other bits from my mate with the CNC will arrive and now I am a bit fooked up I most likely will farm our the disc locker unit too to him
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211117/d7cac950d2e190fe1cbab38a737ddbdb.jpg)
Catch up soon and stay healthy
Best wishes Al
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 17, 2021, 08:00:44 PM
They look cool so I can buy into the cosmetic appeal.
Post by: taysidedragon on November 17, 2021, 08:09:22 PM
Post by: allankelly1 on November 17, 2021, 08:11:10 PM
Thanks for the comment but yes for me it’s a bit of bling but I was told once that one of the reason for holes and slots is two fold and why even hi performance road cars have them
1 it prevent pad glazing at high temps
2 also as the pad rubs and heats up to high temperature the pad material produces a hot layer of vapour that sits between th disc and pad surface and hole and slots allow this gas to escape so you have better pad contact
But you are right for me it’s bling as with the twin disc front and to now in progress rear disc I think the bike braking is much improved
Also now I’ve got the Dresa rear swinger fitted and once the brakes are sorted, time to fettle the suspension a bit as I just love to improve things from standard
Maybe father Xmas will drop down the chimney I nice pair of JSS piggyback shocks and a race tec front end kit with springs and emulators and also a nice set of adjustable spring preload units
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211117/75969a2866b60c89c680875fc87c0bb9.jpg)
I guess that the engineeer in me
Best wishes Al
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 17, 2021, 08:11:33 PM
Good luck with the slipped disc op. Make sure you drill the steel disc later, not the boney ones.
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Post by: allankelly1 on November 17, 2021, 08:13:55 PM
Good luck with the slipped disc op. Make sure you drill the steel disc later, not the boney ones.Thanks buddy
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Post by: Laverdaroo on November 17, 2021, 08:19:48 PM
I hadnt even considered the following : "with a second set of three that are pitched so the total pad area other than the outside and inside edges are covered and holes are only 6mm with plenty of space between holes to insure disc integrity". Like I say I copied a photo but, It'll be better next time.
Yours will look brilliant if you end up doing them like that. I've managed to get everything I need for the twin disc set up now so I'll be having a good read in the next couple of weeks and cast an eye. I'm a bit knackered until I get the pipes back from being 'Middle Class' Ceracote'd and get my air box from the states, it's en route so looking forward to a box of 'shiny' coming.
Soon as they're on I can get it in the hall under the stairs for the winter and get the 550 on the ramp.
I feel for you mate re your back, that sounds a right arse hat of a scenario to be in. Bad backs are utter misery, I feel for you mate. At least you're going straight in and getting it sorted, best way bud but thats going to knacker you for bit i shouldn't wonder? Does this mean more cottage printing while you're malingering until Christmas? ;) ;D
Stiff upper lip mate and go steady. Keep me posted on disc designs etc, they look spot on at the min, just the right amount of cool with function as well as form. They'll look wicked on spoked rims mate. Spot on.
Best of luck with it all Al and stay sharpe.
Bestest
Post by: allankelly1 on November 17, 2021, 08:34:41 PM
If you need any info feel free to just ask a I will see if I can help in any way
Now hopefully found a CNC guy that does not seem too expensive and he is like my printing business (vat free) so I am looking forward to seeing the parts for real
Trouble is my position at work as a principle manufacture engineer means my site responsibilities are huge so it don’t leave me much “Homer” time for this type of project even though I have access to a toolroom so sometimes it’s just easier to bite the bullet and get made plus it supporting a local lad who is just starting out as a business and pay for it with my
3d printer business profit
Also as a plus side all he needs is my model file so no engineer drawing
Catch up soon
Best wishes Al
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Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on November 17, 2021, 08:42:38 PM
You will have to put on hold the engine switch I guess until well into the new year - take care Buddy were only born with the one skeleton look after yours. Cheers Ted
Post by: allankelly1 on November 17, 2021, 08:55:56 PM
It’s not too bad
A disc has moved and is compressing my spinal cord so I have lost all sensation in my R/H leg and some movement too
The op is call lumber decompression where they are going to cut away the part of the disc that is compressing the spinal cord to release the pressure
It just hurt like hell unless you keep taking the smarties and have been working / living with it for the last two plus weeks due to work commitments but now going to work from home as support remote till I am fit enough to return
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Post by: Yoshi823 on November 19, 2021, 11:54:18 PM
(https://i.postimg.cc/Y0VK71j2/Early-days-034.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Having drilled my own discs it was not at all difficult & I reused the same template on other friends CB500 & 550 bikes. I have also done my brother's GS1000S discs & a friend's CBX1000ZA & those on my CB750F2, using the same method.
(https://i.postimg.cc/Pqb6ymjp/CB750-F2-back-in-1983.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/4KdbNHns)
Post by: K2-K6 on November 22, 2021, 01:06:35 PM
Another application, downhill mountain bikes, use a very lightweight structure for demanding use
[attachimg=1]
225mm diameter, floating and mounted on aluminium centre.
Using this type of caliper, six titanium piston, milled from billet single structure
[attachimg=3]
Similar developments in motorcycle
[attachimg=2]
Post by: TrickyMicky on November 22, 2021, 01:36:18 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on November 22, 2021, 03:36:03 PM
Dp you really need that on a 45 year old, 400cc, vintage motorcycle, which I assume is going to be used on a public road? If it's just for looks and an engineering exercise, I wish you well. If your riding/driving needs these types of brakes????
It was more a matetials and design concept contribution in which outlying elements of the same subject may give some insight to the OP.
No suggestion that those should be fitted.
You did reslise the the first two photos are bicycle components, no scale reference may have confused the issue.