Post by: billdn on April 24, 2021, 06:07:46 PM
Having purchased a new points plate complete I thought this would be easy >:( !
I've tried both methods in the Haynes and Clymer manuals with no success so can anybody please give me a definitive procedure.
The story so far:-
1) Turn 22mm nut until 1-4 points at widest and adjust to 0.35mm (mid point)
2) Same with 2-3
3) Hook up test light to blue wire (points 1-4) and earth on engine turn on ignition and rotate 22mm nut until F mark for 1-4 aligns with static mark -adjust back plate -light comes on but stays on for about 240 degrees then goes out, same happens when doing yellow on 2-3 side.
4) re - Adjust points gap when F mark aligned back to 0.35mm
5) Sort of spark on 1-4 but none on 2-3
6) Coils are new too.
I vaguely recall something or other about not getting something round the wrong way as it throws everything out but can't remember it!
I'm obviously doing something wrong! Yes I know Haynes are good for bonfires! But the Honda shop manual refers to a strobe and the engine running, be nice to get the b####y thing started!
I throw myself at your mercy and ridicule if that suits!
Post by: ka-ja on April 24, 2021, 07:42:03 PM
Post by: robvangulik on April 24, 2021, 08:10:28 PM
Post by: Bryanj on April 24, 2021, 08:26:56 PM
Second new points have a preservative on the surfaces that need cleaning off
Third you should NOT get a spark at the points, only the plugs
Yes it is a barsteward getting both the points gap correct and the timing spot on and thats even when youdo it regularly!!
If you can make the points plate a less "sloppy" fit in the crankcase it will be easier. Apart from that just patience and perseverance
Post by: billdn on April 25, 2021, 07:30:31 AM
If you have had the advance/retard unit to pieces, you can reassemble it 180 degrees out.
Cheers, that clears that up , knew I'd read it some where but forgotten the full story - it's not been apart so no problem!
Post by: billdn on April 25, 2021, 07:34:55 AM
#4 is superfluous, skip that and turn plate until light comes on at the F mark.
Thought it was making me chase my tail in ever decreasing circles!
Post by: billdn on April 25, 2021, 07:41:46 AM
First ONLY use the 22mm nut if you have the plugs removed or you will deform the peg and/or shear the bolt holding the auto advance on.
Second new points have a preservative on the surfaces that need cleaning off
Third you should NOT get a spark at the points, only the plugs
Yes it is a barsteward getting both the points gap correct and the timing spot on and thats even when youdo it regularly!!
If you can make the points plate a less "sloppy" fit in the crankcase it will be easier. Apart from that just patience and perseverance
Thanks Bryan, for some reason I took the plugs out just it because it was easier, dodged a bullet there!
Have cleaned the points with meths, as read that on other posts when I was looking this up.
From this it seems that while the contact breakers and advance/retard work together ultimately - the setting of points gap and setting the "F" mark with the light are in fact separate actions.
I'll persevere , I've patience a plenty- I'm married!
Post by: Bryanj on April 25, 2021, 09:13:05 AM
Take your time to get both perfect and in the future when servicing you will be able to set the gap by making the bulb light on the f mark as the only thing that actually wears is the fibre heel on the points.
Post by: JezzaPeach on April 25, 2021, 09:21:23 AM
PS the gap makes a big difference to the timing position and I thought my plate was beyond adjustment until I tweaked that a bit.
Post by: billdn on April 29, 2021, 07:43:42 PM
The trick is get the gap exact then dont undo the plate screws too much but i bet the gap will alter when you rotate plate!!!
Take your time to get both perfect and in the future when servicing you will be able to set the gap by making the bulb light on the f mark as the only thing that actually wears is the fibre heel on the points.
Well a couple of days pass and I've been diligently trying to little or no avail, apart from a few pops and bangs.
Bryan you mentioned about making sure backing plate seated well, what did you mean? Spacer/washer behind perhaps?
I have noticed that I can get the light to come on the F mark on 1-4 and 2-3 but when tightening screws up on advance/retard plates it goes out sometimes but a careful giggle can get it to stay on. I believe the F mark position is correct as I can hear a click in the respective coil at the same time.
Plug gap set, btw Clymer says 7-8mm not 0.7-0.8mm!!
When it fires I get a bit of blow back through the carbs and out of the air filter box (filter out as I used a small squirt of Easy-Start!) and the throttle grip twitches with some of the backfires.
Should I use full choke or part choke?
Good spark on all plugs too.
This is a fully rebuilt engine from scratch with new rings/pistons/ rebore etc and skimmed head. New points and point plate assembly too.
Would incorrect tappets setting give a problem also.
Any ideas to try for me?
Post by: K2-K6 on April 29, 2021, 08:05:59 PM
The point earlier about something assembled wrongly, you can assemble the rotating part of the advance and retard mech at 180 degrees out (the cam lobe being in the wrong place) which would put the timing at near bdc!
You can do a quick test for that by swapping the two coil to points wires over with each other to see if it fires. If it goes, then you need ultimately to correct the assembly and swap them back. But try it first to see if you get a response.
Post by: JezzaPeach on April 30, 2021, 07:05:40 AM
Post by: TrickyMicky on April 30, 2021, 07:38:33 AM
On my 400, I still use points ignition. The one big problem I had some while ago was using a "Ready to Fit" fully assembled backplate. There was not enough movement in the adjusting slots to be able to set both points as required, so it became a compromise. This was followed by one of the condensers failing which gave me my 1st ride in an RAC Recovery truck!
I still had the OE backplate, which was re-installed along with new OE components from DSS. Bliss!
Just to show that I still push my luck, I use a cigarette paper to time my ignition! Please keep the replies polite!
Stay Safe. Mick.
Post by: K2-K6 on April 30, 2021, 08:38:47 AM
Good point, or take a plug out and compare the piston position with the T mark on the plate.
I think the marks stay the same as pegged to crank position, but just the cam lobe moving as it rotates independent of the other parts.
In effect it looks ok from initial inspection but the cam itself is 180 out from marks.
To swap it you have to swing the counter weights out of the way and swivel the cam then re-establish the weights.
There's some good pictures on here of the units with align check marks but I can't immediately find them.
Post by: Bryanj on April 30, 2021, 11:32:34 AM
On a really bad one i made 3 bent curved shims held by yhe screws that hold the plate and bend round the edge of the plate to remove any play, there are other ways and any that work without damage are OK
Post by: JezzaPeach on April 30, 2021, 05:52:01 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on April 30, 2021, 06:18:34 PM
Post by: billdn on May 02, 2021, 09:56:00 AM
That's the one, the two little white squares reference the lobe position and can be installed either correctly or 180 out, putting all the timing at BBDC rather than BTDC .
Like the thought but my one has it with the mark in the vicinity of 2-3 mark and a new (not OEM) on DS site shows it also on the 2-3 side , possible succinctly different on the 500/4 and 550/4?
Post by: ka-ja on May 02, 2021, 02:00:15 PM
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Post by: billdn on May 02, 2021, 03:35:24 PM
Post by: billdn on May 03, 2021, 06:26:20 PM
I checked the continuity on coils today and have continuity on primary and secondary coil, but on checking the resistance I get around 3 ohms and 10-11k ohms across the plugs with caps off but up to 16 when I put caps on - I've read somewhere that the lower reading should be in the order of 5'ish , the upper value seems about right. They are resistor caps of 5k ohms BUT i have fitted non - resistor plugs D8EA's
My other 400/4 runs fine so I think I'll do a swap on the coils and see what happens!
Post by: billdn on May 04, 2021, 06:51:05 PM
removed coils from 400/4 runner and checked them which gave 5 ohms and 15k ohms respectively, fitted to rebuild and although not running as yet, still need to fine tune timing but sounded much more powerful on attempting to start. Unfortunately I bought the coils form DS over 3 years ago so doubt if I can return them :(.
So beware the perils of pattern parts!
Post by: hairygit on May 04, 2021, 07:13:26 PM
So removed coils and rechecked ohms , (which were from DS but not standard ones - 'cos half the price! ) Ohms for primary coil 3ohms and secondary coil 11k ohms.The ghost of Bitsa will be pissing himself laughing at the last line of that post!
removed coils from 400/4 runner and checked them which gave 5 ohms and 15k ohms respectively, fitted to rebuild and although not running as yet, still need to fine tune timing but sounded much more powerful on attempting to start. Unfortunately I bought the coils form DS over 3 years ago so doubt if I can return them :(.
So beware the perils of pattern parts!
Sent from my JNY-LX1 using Tapatalk
Post by: philward on May 04, 2021, 07:47:31 PM
So removed coils and rechecked ohms , (which were from DS but not standard ones - 'cos half the price! ) Ohms for primary coil 3ohms and secondary coil 11k ohms.
removed coils from 400/4 runner and checked them which gave 5 ohms and 15k ohms respectively, fitted to rebuild and although not running as yet, still need to fine tune timing but sounded much more powerful on attempting to start. Unfortunately I bought the coils form DS over 3 years ago so doubt if I can return them :(.
So beware the perils of pattern parts!
Try Ash's coil fix - for the cost of cheap pattern coils - http://info.sohc.co.uk/download/ashs-ignition-coil-fix-2/
Post by: billdn on May 06, 2021, 09:08:00 AM