Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: RBoss on January 09, 2022, 06:31:32 PM
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Hi all,
After rebuilding and painting the engine to replace primary chain + rubbers, I am now at the stage of rebuilding and assembling the cilinder head.
I am planning to (lightly, they are in pretty good shape) lap the valves and replace the valve stem seals. I have bought the lapping compound and the suction cup tool and am looking forward to this job. Before starting on that though I want to properly clean the valves from carbon etc.
I have watched several videos on how to clean the valves and on that basis I started cleaning the first exhaust valve by spinning it in a cordless drill using a scotchbrite pad/brass brush to clean the valve (see picture for the result). After cleaning the first valve I had the feeling there was some sort of coating on the valve. My question;
- have I done irreparable damage to the first valve or can I still use it?
- what is the best way to proceed with the other valves?
Pictures:
1. engine in restoration proces ;D
[attach=1]
2. exhaust valves
[attach=2]
[attach=3]
3. inlet valves
[attach=4]
[attach=5]
Thanks!
Ruben
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Extra zoom in on the "scothbrited" valve on which I might have done some damage.
[attachimg=1]
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To the best of my knowledge standard Honda valves have no "coating" although the tips may be stellite.
The valve seating area on the valve you show does look to be pockmarked and as these faces are not supposed to be machines only lapped you may have a problem getting a decent seal
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To the best of my knowledge standard Honda valves have no "coating" although the tips may be stellite.
The valve seating area on the valve you show does look to be pockmarked and as these faces are not supposed to be machines only lapped you may have a problem getting a decent seal
Thanks for your quick thoughts Bryanj. I am not very worried for a bad seal as there where no problems (to my knowledge) with it before I opened up the engine. I still have to lap the valves with compound so that might also make it better.
Any advice on how to clean the valves/take of the carbon?
Cheers,
Ruben
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Soak in paraffin or similar then the scotchbrite
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The valves look like the seating are burnt. It is advisable to re- face the valves and re-grind the valve seats. Check the valve guide to valve stem clearances are within spec.
We find a good result de-coking valves by soaking in thinners for a day and wipe off.
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Thanks for the advice!
The valves look like the seating are burnt. It is advisable to re- face the valves and re-grind the valve seats. Check the valve guide to valve stem clearances are within spec.
We find a good result de-coking valves by soaking in thinners for a day and wipe off.
@ Julie what is een-facing the valves?
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Thanks for the advice!
The valves look like the seating are burnt. It is advisable to re- face the valves and re-grind the valve seats. Check the valve guide to valve stem clearances are within spec.
We find a good result de-coking valves by soaking in thinners for a day and wipe off.
@ Julie what is een-facing the valves?
Do you mean re face?
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Do you mean re face?
[/quote]
Yes! Autocorrect on a smartphone…
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FWIW except when I have had to have new valve guides on car cylinder heads I have found most valves will seat ok by just going throught the two grades of grinding paste. Coarse to remove the worst bits then fine for the final seating. It's tedious but I've always managed to get the surfaces back to where they should be. Professional engine r-ebuilders often re-face the seats as it's more cost effective but if your labour is free then its worth a shot.
It's time consuming but unless you have serious pock marks on the seating face they usually clean up okay. Your fist grind with coarse paste will usually reveal if the pock marks are too deep so need re-facing.
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FWIW except when I have had to have new valve guides on car cylinder heads I have found most valves will seat ok by just going throught the two grades of grinding paste. Coarse to remove the worst bits then fine for the final seating. It's tedious but I've always managed to get the surfaces back to where they should be. Professional engine r-ebuilders often re-face the seats as it's more cost effective but if your labour is free then its worth a shot.
It's time consuming but unless you have serious pock marks on the seating face they usually clean up okay. Your fist grind with coarse paste will usually reveal if the pock marks are too deep so need re-facing.
Ideally though on Honda's Ted, there is quite a tight spec. on the seat width..so that should be watched out for.
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Thanks all for the advice!
I think I will starts soaking the valves in thinner or similar, clean them with scotchbrite and proceed with both the valve lapping pastes in the lapping procedure. Like you say Ted, I don’t mind spending time on a tedious job. That’s the reason I am in rebuilding this amazing bike anyway ;D
Thanks,
Ruben
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There is a tool for lapping valves. Fits in a battery drill and it oscillates the valve. Saves loads of time and sore palms.
Had mine for about 35 years and still going strong. They have something similar on Amazon for about 20 quid
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Hope someone can teach me on this. Is it true that some valves are special and are not supposed to be lapped and if you do, you will do more harm than good? Second question: what is it precisely, that causes valves to wear?
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Hope someone can teach me on this. Is it true that some valves are special and are not supposed to be lapped and if you do, you will do more harm than good? Second question: what is it precisely, that causes valves to wear?
Additional question to this, what would make the valves special (do I have them? ::) )
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Hope someone can teach me on this. Is it true that some valves are special and are not supposed to be lapped and if you do, you will do more harm than good? Second question: what is it precisely, that causes valves to wear?
These old bikes mostly use steel valves which need lapping in to get a good seal. Race bikes and some modern high performance bikes use exotic, lightweight materials which might need special treatment. That's beyond my 'need to know' knowledge.
Valves wear because they are opening and shutting thousands of times a minute. The valve seat is getting hammered by the closing valve every time. Any wear in the valve guide means the head of the valve can move sideways a little and then the valve doesn't seat exactly on the seat and that causes more wear. HTH
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There is a tool for lapping valves. Fits in a battery drill and it oscillates the valve. Saves loads of time and sore palms.
Had mine for about 35 years and still going strong. They have something similar on Amazon for about 20 quid
I had one of those tools for many years but eventually the plastic casing cracked so I had to bin it - it worked okay but I still found the achiles heel was the same as using a manual stick - the cup comes off the valve.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/402108621845?epid=27017016881&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item5d9f8aa415:g:IPwAAOSw5BVeW9bP&amdata=enc%3AAQAGAAACoPYe5NmHp%252B2JMhMi7yxGiTJkPrKr5t53CooMSQt2orsS%252BMKizvpuEDUfX4dvRWfUzURblK36%252BPNf4lX6vgxusHh0GHwCj0dJ%252BH1Ebar3rSvQXHHlOooirdet7SZ5H7h0OGGiMHgxuLEBJ8KzWOj8GsVY%252FlgrqLPYc3v9SwUudsvKNrDj8vGl%252FEX1wrFPODxM2zJIZCcETQ7%252BmT9bKdqNVfh%252B0xuIINfIAJRsRlQOwMZAIZM8ZFSw3E30HZNGueMJOBBaKvX50Xo%252BT%252BS7D%252FNh%252FM2Di1NecTc8Ge0hyJh7yjLplGvkc%252Fzy%252FbD0cdEQsKShM1%252BuWg0w%252F99ycu3fZ6lg4Xo5JJ%252BdriAYUeNCUoJVCI3vaOPpIgclSVGLuUv%252BVfYoVX98U7HugW%252FNe8zcB0xMHe3tOZ5Y97Xg%252Bzq06ezth3BK1mBCgWfpPf%252B%252BdZDGFzy4tPu%252B1gWPZGRxDChw5HDiTia4lSUUA%252BQlTBU2%252BHS61FB82rk3yNlMwFe2cpYAUQS2lr9A7LnK1blM9ZSXNph3zcZNrhhF8anuU0zc2y8KCd%252BVWYK4NE2Wzi%252FEgqgjYkb6ZQVx1o%252BQ5RkLyuvxyMsFMHMY7zg%252Bmb2zCBAZz0epUSD5emDdHvHjus97O%252F1yeI2GjhzH0hs5OXz63I7nM9rPsWAcS5kyucZcR8JNT8FZ81Wp9CwoKmKUjF%252F9pZnU982QaXZZ3jlT982pGi2a%252FYNDYT6jIZj3BWzdnAXmVl%252BJHg%252Fzw2ozkOgPnXyy7UtAL7qod8IkhN2PSA%252BLAaMuf0uG6NEbf4eGCEsVYopWPkWx2TU1Td%252FVa3kHVjUtnOllTv5ILwsuaw4JfuyGcLe%252FpwdoeKB8spvkhcwwR6FklmJREj3%252FBLnP7WxuMOvgEncrQeMsTw%253D%253D%7Cclp%3A2334524%7Ctkp%3ABFBMopbFushf
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My tip to stop the cup coming off the valve - find the stickest chewing gum you can!!
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The easiest and to me, the best way to lap a valve is to use a tap wrench, the chuck type. Fit the valve with paste attached and grab the exposed stem with the chuck. You can then pull against the valve whilst oscillating the valve at the same time, far better than spinning the valve. You can vary the amount of pressure depending on how bad the surface is. You can check the condition of the face by lowering the valve as far as the chuck allows and inspecting the face. One of the better things about this method is that when you think you have a seal leave the chuck attached, fill the port with petrol whilst pulling on the valve, if it leaks past the valve head you can easily spot it, if it doesn't you have a decent seal without having to fit the springs etc. Of course you check the seal when the springs are attached using the same petrol method. Even a very small leakage can be seen by the petrol just misting through.
I had to do 24 valves on a CBX head one time and this method was the one I used. The sucker method is exactly that, for suckers. Believe me, this method really works.
Example of a chuck type tap wrench, make sure the jaws are big enough to take the stem diameter but at the same time make sure the chuck with fit down the valve spring hole.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/393855967252?hash=item5bb3a52014:g:RYoAAOSwQeNh2Y1d
The very best tap wrench is the Snap On as it has a spanner fitment, saves you trying to grip the wrench with your fingers to get it tight enough.
https://buy.wesco.com/Tools-and-Installation/Drilling-Tapping-and-Milling-Tools/Tapping-Tools/Tap-Wrenches/SNAP-ON-TOOLS/Tap-Wrench-1-4-1-2-in-Tap-High-Carbon-Steel/TD50/p/78582828061-1
You could buy a normal one like the first link and grind some flats onto the chuck I suppose.
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Hope someone can teach me on this. Is it true that some valves are special and are not supposed to be lapped and if you do, you will do more harm than good? Second question: what is it precisely, that causes valves to wear?
Additional question to this, what would make the valves special (do I have them? ::) )
Generally nothing as long as the seating area is in spec, seats can be two or three angle.
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So I have been busy with the sucker method... And I agree Oddjob, its pretty frustrating when the suction cup starts getting loose all the time, I will switch to the tap wrench soon, if I am not there yet.
However I am getting pretty good results already and I am just wondering what you all would do. Here's the situation:
I have been lapping with coarse compound and was able to get the biggest pock marks off the valves. The pock marks that I am having trouble with getting of are these ones (in the picture).
[attach=1]
Would you either:
1. go on lapping until these pock marks get off and the surface is smooth (I don't know how long that will take) and what the maximum is one should keep lapping valves.
2. do a test with water or gasoline in the valve area and see if it leaks--> when it doesn't leak, leave it like this
3. leave it like this --> it doesn't make that much of a difference
4. buy a new replacement valve as this has relative impact on engine performance
I'm wondering what you guys would do!
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Do the petrol test. See how that goes.
I'd keep on lapping for a while yet but that's just me.
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If you have that much pitting on the valve faces, the valve seats will also be pitted If you keep grinding you run the risk of stepping the valve face. This thread explains what needs doing. http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,20419.150.html
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If you have that much pitting on the valve faces, the valve seats will also be pitted If you keep grinding you run the risk of stepping the valve face. This thread explains what needs doing. http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,20419.150.html
That looks like a top end quality rebuild! :o
I'm trying to avoid cutting corners on my rebuild, but I believe I am not at that point yet.
I think the valve seats look pretty good. (apologies for the poor photo quality)
[attach=1][attach=2][attach=3][attach=4]
I'll start with the petrol test and probably go on lapping for a bit.
Thanks for the advice!
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No 1 looks the worst. Even that ain't too bad.