Honda-SOHC
Other Stuff => Tricks & Tips => Topic started by: Matt_Harrington on July 29, 2022, 02:59:50 PM
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When fitting s/steel fasteners to our bikes, do most of you use a copper based ant-seize grease or a nickel based one.
I have been using Copaslip for years but wondered if Nickelslip or similar was a better option....
Matt
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Nickel & Copper sit next to each other in the periodic table so I think either will work ok.
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Both are fine. Nickel looks a little better IMO being silver.
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Both are fine. Nickel looks a little better IMO being silver.
Nickle & Silver are two seperate elements or do you mean the colour?
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No it just looks silver in colour Ted.
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;D ;D
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Both are fine. Nickel looks a little better IMO being silver.
Yes, copaslip can get very messy and leaves a dark residue if not used sparingly.....
Matt
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Always referred to as 'Ginger grease' where I'm from. ;D
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I'm still using a tub of Molecular Anti Seize that I got from work, it was used on the bolting of oil refinery shell and tube heat exchangers, it looks copper based and I have never had any problems with it.
Cheers
Dennis
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Always referred to as 'Ginger grease' where I'm from. ;D
Just keep in mind that Copper Slip, Anti Seize as well as Molycote Gn+ are "living entities"...
Drop a small crumb somewhere on the shop floor, walk to the opposite corner, sit down and wait...
Aprox 20 minutes later you'll find it on your elbow, another 15 minutes and some portion residents on your forehead, within an hour or so all your tools will be heavily contaminated...
;D
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Always referred to as 'Ginger grease' where I'm from. ;D
Just keep in mind that Copper Slip, Anti Seize as well as Molycote Gn+ are "living entities"...
Drop a small crumb somewhere on the shop floor, walk to the opposite corner, sit down and wait...
Aprox 20 minutes later you'll find it on your elbow, another 15 minutes and some portion residents on your forehead, within an hour or so all your tools will be heavily contaminated...
;D
Very true, I think it is searching for the 10mm sockets!
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I have found Corrosion Block grease to work really well on most areas, although I revert to copper slip where high temperatures are present. Here is a link to the makers web site they also produce ACF 50. http://www.acf-50.co.uk/corrosion_block.htm
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My understanding is that if you have a stud made of a Steel that is predominantly made of iron (Fe) you get a battery effect due to Fe being a dissimilar metal to Aluminium (Al). This process is known as Galvanic corrosion. Putting a Copper (Cu) based grease between the Al & Fe metals acts a sacrificial process where the Cu gives up it's free electrons to the Two metals stopping them from seizing due to corrosion.
I'm sure most here might be fully aware of this but worth explaining in an over symplystic way.
This reason you get the White crust on battery terminals is the same process.
At a nano level this also explains weld corrosion over time if the welding rod is not the same chemical structure as the metals being joined together.
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I have found Corrosion Block grease to work really well on most areas, although I revert to copper slip where high temperatures are present. Here is a link to the makers web site they also produce ACF 50. http://www.acf-50.co.uk/corrosion_block.htm
Never saw their grease though... is it an actual lubricant too? (like for brake pedal and shifter linkage pivots)
For many years I'm using their spray on any electrical connector (and as cavity protection) for the reasons pointed out by McCabe-Thiele...
Copper Slip for anything on the exhaust line and the backside (& the stainless clips) of brake-pads...
Recently someone suggested AntiSeize as lubricant for clutch & brake lever pivots (+ the brass parts in there), but I don't want that mess all over my motorcycle, gloves, gear, hair, face, helmet, etc... so I'd stick to the annual waterproof marine grease application...
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I know what you mean about the mess in some applications. I have started to use Silicone spray as a cleaner alternative where appropriate.
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Sorry, ive used coppaslip since the 70's and dont think there is anything better, i will even admit to using it on shells in my own Fords
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I've always used Coppaslip but after buying some nickel grease I think it's better than Copper so I tend to use that now.
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Apologies, to clarify my earlier post, I tend to use the corrosion block grease on bolts ETC, preferring marine grade grease on pivot shafts and wheel spindles and copper slip on anything that could get hot, although it does say in their data sheet that it can be used at high temperatures, I haven't tried it.
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As above, it's rare to take something apart that's been coppaslipped and find it stuck, generally pretty effective in reality.
There's more than one thing going on though, one being the grease within in which excludes moisture etc. Galvanic corrosion ordinarily needs promoting by electrolyte and ordinarily supplied by salt water solution from winter roads quite effectively. Exclusion of electrolytes by waterproof grease and sacrificial metals the defense methods.
Straight "galling" of one metal against another in high torque loading a little more specialised in that nickel for stainless outperforms most others to prevent cold pickup and localised welding of two components.
For really susceptible components in high water ingress locations, the marine type grease is possibly most effective if that's the main risk. Something like Duckams Keenol (don't think it's still made though) and has significant levels of zinc oxide incorporated was really effective.
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This is all very interesting. Copaslip, it would seem, is fine. In fact anything is better than nothing!
I thought Nickelslip wasn't available because of the fact that nickel is now very expensive (in fact I believe trading in Nickel is suspended).
I was also told by someone else that Nickelslip was toxic (?)
Matt
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This is all very interesting. Copaslip, it would seem, is fine. In fact anything is better than nothing!
I thought Nickelslip wasn't available because of the fact that nickel is now very expensive (in fact I believe trading in Nickel is suspended).
I was also told by someone else that Nickelslip was toxic (?)
Matt
Yes, very specific uses eg stainless both bolt and nut as the stainless has very high chance of picking up and welding together under torque load. During tightening the bolt gets stretched with the nut compressing to give conflict with the two components as their thread pitch is changing in opposite direction to each other. Binding is fundamental to torque measurement too, correct lubrication is a fundamental part of working in this topic.
Opposite to this is brass fitings on oxygen cylinders as you can't use grease for risk of explosion, all joints, in oxygen acetylene for example, are dry.
N of course is the N-ickel in our new motive power of the future, batteries, in monumental quantities.
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And what about the impact on the torque values?
Normally the numbers given in workshop manuals are rated for "dry" installation...
How much shall one reduce the torque if any anti corrosion lubricant is applied? -5%, -15%...?
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This is all very interesting. Copaslip, it would seem, is fine. In fact anything is better than nothing!
I thought Nickelslip wasn't available because of the fact that nickel is now very expensive (in fact I believe trading in Nickel is suspended).
I was also told by someone else that Nickelslip was toxic (?)
Matt
Yes, very specific uses eg stainless both bolt and nut as the stainless has very high chance of picking up and welding together under torque load. During tightening the bolt gets stretched with the nut compressing to give conflict with the two components as their thread pitch is changing in opposite direction to each other. Binding is fundamental to torque measurement too, correct lubrication is a fundamental part of working in this topic.
Opposite to this is brass fitings on oxygen cylinders as you can't use grease for risk of explosion, all joints, in oxygen acetylene for example, are dry.
N of course is the N-ickel in our new motive power of the future, batteries, in monumental quantities.
I know only too well about the 'welding' of stainless steel. Whilst helping out a mate at a harbour in Lanzarote, I managed to 'weld' a s/steel ball cock and fitting. No amount of force could separate them. Of course, I had fitted them dry. Lesson learnt!
Thanks to a forum member (Thanks Peter) I am now the owner of a tin of Nickelslip. Probably ought to place it in the safe!!
Matt
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A quick research:
https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/torque-lubrication-effects-d_1693.html
Anti Seize however claims to maintain 75% of the original torque specs...
https://www.antiseize.com/PDFs/torque_specifications.pdf
And Loctite suggest to reduce values by 20% when applying thread-lock...
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Coppaslip 100%. I’ve used it since 1976 and never had an issue, not one.