Post by: Scottish Badger on December 06, 2022, 10:31:08 PM
Looking to fit an oil cooler when I install my rebuilt engine. Thinking slightly out of the box (and put off by prices for a simple offtake plate!) a CB650 Nighthawk has a very similar looking oil filter housing, and also a sandwich plate feeding an oil cooler. The seal for the sandwich plate is the same part number as the 400/4, so it has to be the same diameter..... What I can't find listed anywhere is an adapter union to attach the sandwich plate to the engine, which leaves me thinking it's simply a longer oil filter bolt, hopefully the same thread as the 400's one but just longer?
Can anyone out there confirm this, or suggest any other alternatives?
Thanks.
Post by: K2-K6 on December 06, 2022, 10:53:20 PM
Many of this type arrangement use a spigot/bolt that holds the plate to motor and moves the threads out to utilise std oil bolt for filter housing.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on December 07, 2022, 01:22:47 AM
Post by: Scottish Badger on December 07, 2022, 09:55:57 AM
I really don't have much faith in that small amount of extra finning doing much, to be honest.[attachimg=1]
Post by: ka-ja on December 07, 2022, 09:59:46 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on December 07, 2022, 10:18:28 AM
Wondering the need for cooling as running oil too cold produces just as many problems as too hot. If you've no definite figures of your running example it may be worthwhile assessment to define this.
Running oil too cold, and especially at high rpm can bring unintended side effects. The pump is protected from hydraulic locking (virtually all engine have this) by a pressure bleed off valve that blows excess to sump effectively startng to starve key points in the lubrication system of supply, that's ordinarily the crank and big end bearing sites.
The flow is optimised for stated viscosity (varying with temp) at 90 degree C to give designed flow as originally tested and researched. You'd need to target this temp range in specifying cooling capacity.
Post by: Scottish Badger on December 07, 2022, 10:35:27 AM
Yes to that type of arrangement, but in agreement with you as to how effective it may be in cooling, I was referring to method of fixing as interesting point. The fit for F2 was this plus larger fins on head and barrels as complete package when they ran into trouble with lubrication on that model and kind of stop gap until the twin cam arrived in market.
Wondering the need for cooling as running oil too cold produces just as many problems as too hot. If you've no definite figures of your running example it may be worthwhile assessment to define this.
Running oil too cold, and especially at high rpm can bring unintended side effects. The pump is protected from hydraulic locking (virtually all engine have this) by a pressure bleed off valve that blows excess to sump effectively startng to starve key points in the lubrication system of supply, that's ordinarily the crank and big end bearing sites.
The flow is optimised for stated viscosity (varying with temp) at 90 degree C to give designed flow as originally tested and researched. You'd need to target this temp range in specifying cooling capacity.
I'm going to build a 460 engine for my bike, I have a spare 400 engine as a donor for the project and I now have most of the parts needed for the build, but I've read a lot of older posts claiming oil temp gets marginal with the larger bore size hence the need for additional cooling. I was looking to use an in-line oilstat to regulate the temp, being aware of the pitfalls of overcooling. (I'm an aircraft engineer by trade, spent decades working with both piston and gas turbine engines).
Post by: Scottish Badger on December 07, 2022, 10:39:09 AM
My sandwich plate between filter and the engine is held in place with a longer version of the holding bolt instead of an adapter spigot
That's exactly how I think the 650 Nighthawk cooler plate is attached also. I've found a complete cooler/pipes/plate package for sale on ebay but the filter retaining bolt isn't there and I can't find it for sale on its own unfortunately.
Post by: K2-K6 on December 07, 2022, 11:35:18 AM
[attachimg=1]
Clipped from that item.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on December 07, 2022, 11:55:16 AM
Post by: Scottish Badger on December 07, 2022, 12:36:10 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on December 07, 2022, 12:39:17 PM
Thanks Ted, don't suppose there's any pics showing the sandwich plate and pipework?
If you PM allankelly1 you will find him very helpful.
Post by: Oddjob on December 07, 2022, 12:51:23 PM
Post by: taysidedragon on December 07, 2022, 02:05:17 PM
Don't know why you think you need an oil cooler in Scotland, the sun never comes out ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cheeky bugger! The sun comes out a lot. It's just blue, not yellow! 🥶
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on December 07, 2022, 03:17:08 PM
He might need to flit to England.
Post by: Scottish Badger on December 07, 2022, 09:21:24 PM
Don't know why you think you need an oil cooler in Scotland, the sun never comes out ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Ooh, cheeky! :)
Post by: Scottish Badger on December 07, 2022, 09:23:47 PM
It's contingency planning for if Ms Sturgeon gets her way.
He might need to flit to England.
Hmm... She's all bluster, she knows it'll never happen. All she does is make noises to keep her followers on-side, so she stays in power without actually delivering anything of substance! I think my title deeds are safe enough for the time being, haha.
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on December 07, 2022, 09:35:00 PM
Post by: Johnny4428 on December 08, 2022, 11:27:53 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on December 08, 2022, 01:18:02 PM
Yes to that type of arrangement, but in agreement with you as to how effective it may be in cooling, I was referring to method of fixing as interesting point. The fit for F2 was this plus larger fins on head and barrels as complete package when they ran into trouble with lubrication on that model and kind of stop gap until the twin cam arrived in market.
Wondering the need for cooling as running oil too cold produces just as many problems as too hot. If you've no definite figures of your running example it may be worthwhile assessment to define this.
Running oil too cold, and especially at high rpm can bring unintended side effects. The pump is protected from hydraulic locking (virtually all engine have this) by a pressure bleed off valve that blows excess to sump effectively startng to starve key points in the lubrication system of supply, that's ordinarily the crank and big end bearing sites.
The flow is optimised for stated viscosity (varying with temp) at 90 degree C to give designed flow as originally tested and researched. You'd need to target this temp range in specifying cooling capacity.
I'm going to build a 460 engine for my bike, I have a spare 400 engine as a donor for the project and I now have most of the parts needed for the build, but I've read a lot of older posts claiming oil temp gets marginal with the larger bore size hence the need for additional cooling. I was looking to use an in-line oilstat to regulate the temp, being aware of the pitfalls of overcooling. (I'm an aircraft engineer by trade, spent decades working with both piston and gas turbine engines).
Interesting background in this field. You must have seen some good installation of this type on other systems. Is there anything fundamentally different to this available (sandwich plate type) as this, well definitely a seperate thermostat always looks quite cumbersome on such a small engine.
Always unsure of historic views on additional oil cooling, only from the point of view that the users don't often seem aware of why they've fitted one, more a kind of just because that's what everyone says status.
I like running temperature gauge to see what is really happening in very high duty use as it may not even get into that realm anyway.
Interested to see your solution as I've been looking through combined sandwich plates with built in thermostat, but don't look like you could fit an original type filter housing but just a cartridge type to it.
That 400 always seems like an ideal notional 500 motor when modified and closer to that era grand prix motor than the cb500 having shorter stroke. Certainly an interesting project.
Post by: Scottish Badger on December 08, 2022, 02:45:21 PM
We are all sick of it Ted! She can shove her independence right up where the sun don’t shine.🤣
Hoorah to that!
Post by: Scottish Badger on December 08, 2022, 03:12:47 PM
My theory is this - assuming older info I've read from tuners in magazine articles is correct in stating there was no need to up the oil pressure in any way, but temps became marginal with the original Yoshi big bore kits.
Whilst a bypass sandwich plate with integral thermostat would be preferrable, no such item exists for this engine. I don't want to over-cool things (just as bad if not worse in some cases than too high a temp or a low pressure!), so an external 'stat is the only alternative. I've found a 'stat to go with, which I think will sit to the nearside of the filter head without appearing too cumbersome. It starts to open at 72c which may sound a little low but it's going to be in airflow so the oil temp will probably need to go a bit higher before any real flow takes place through the cooler. The oil is also being returned into a hot crankcase and pumped up a hot cylinder barrel to a hot head, so I doubt it'll be over-cooled in all honesty.
I've ordered up an offcut of aluminium bar 4" diameter which I intend to chuck up in the lathe and make my own sandwich plate offtake, so I can put the oil ports exactly where I want to suit the thermostat install.
None of this is going to happen overnight, it's a slow-time project, but as and when I do anything I'll take pictures. I do, however, need that longer CB650 Nighthawk filter bolt.....
This is the 'stat I'm looking at using, the body is 88x49x32, the fittings are AN10xM20 but I can play with different fittings to get the positioning / hose angles as neat as possible.
Post by: taysidedragon on December 08, 2022, 05:32:19 PM
We are all sick of it Ted! She can shove her independence right up where the sun don’t shine.🤣
Agreed!🏴
Post by: K2-K6 on December 08, 2022, 06:58:58 PM
[attachimg=1]
From this link https://www.advocultmotorsport.co.uk/mocal-thermostatic-oil-sandwich-plate-high-flow/ that may, with a bespoke spigot, take a honda filter housing and std bolt arrangement.
Or use a later type cartridge filter used on Honda bikes early 80s.
Post by: Scottish Badger on December 08, 2022, 11:02:50 PM
I didn't see that particular one however, and I could certainly chuck it up in the lathe and machine a larger diameter o-ring groove, but it says suitable for up to 80mm cartridge filter sealing face and the Honda seal is 89x4.4 (from memory!) so i doubt there would be sufficient metal there either.....
Post by: allankelly1 on December 09, 2022, 11:37:07 PM
Long time no see as been working 100% on this project the last few months so not been about much
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221209/8429f3ebe501383619b8f8fb9f8f63b8.jpg)
As Ted mentioned I fitted a cooler on my CB400F and here’s some pics of the final installation
Hope they are of help
Best wishes Al
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221209/72fbbced444b2e2a976f6d9f42fb1b20.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221209/02944899b7e980e1a29901ef7de4299a.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221209/f9c0df7ca4f7e9d13f49b9d98a3e67eb.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221209/8164c222f2a825d5d3e35802f95870dc.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221209/95a5d6a43a039f61e99dca0550321304.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221209/9e304b57a835a2380f4de9a44aa9c476.jpg)
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221209/0fd39dcf74e2193353a84a82b63de864.jpg)
Post by: Scottish Badger on December 09, 2022, 11:49:54 PM
Don't suppose you can remember where you got the sandwich plate from, or what size the unions on it are?
I note it has a bypass drilling, so only a perentage of the oil flow goes via the cooler - have you done any oil temp measurements?
Cheers,
Brian.
Post by: allankelly1 on December 10, 2022, 12:12:37 AM
Thanks for the kind comment
Got the cooler and sandwich plate from here
https://www.d-mengineering.co.uk/en/
Don’t bother with the braided hose kit that is offered as in the end it was easier to buy all the separate fittings and a hose kit from eBay and make up the required hoses to suit my final cooler and sandwich plate set up / position as both my sandwich connections as you can see are at six o’oclick and then I have used two 180 degree bends to return the hoses back up vertically to the cooler
The kit I used was 3/8 (6AN)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/c49d24465292eb402d344ee78d934cb0.jpg)
Also did not bother with mounting brackets as thought they were a tad expensive so made a cooler mount at work which I think was much better
As for temps I fitted this as a pre cursor to the 460 engine I am current building as I was told by DM that oil cooling on the standard engine is on the limit so a oil cooler for a big bore engine was a must have
Best wishes always Al
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Post by: Scottish Badger on December 10, 2022, 12:10:39 PM
https://d-mengineering.co.uk/abante2/index.php?rt=product/product&path=85&product_id=2790
Post by: allankelly1 on December 10, 2022, 12:36:15 PM
This was the cooler I bought too
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/d410e54fdf79aa5eef8341f3fe9ff9e0.jpg)
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Post by: allankelly1 on December 10, 2022, 12:41:36 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/c6f718448dbbc2f5fc0257fbce7e190d.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/3da7342af9b5a3b918d14cc9a514c66d.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/f76be0052c8ab875ed9ba40e4b8a5bac.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/200847a93ea6df02b0cbc02aae0b6187.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/02d2190ac460a70854f148af34a0e353.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/26ad98a2247893236a1cbe4ce49eb87f.jpg)
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Post by: Scottish Badger on December 10, 2022, 05:10:58 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on December 10, 2022, 05:53:17 PM
Giz a glimps of the 'special' progress, aaaaahhhhhh, go on 8) ;) ;) ;) :D
Post by: allankelly1 on December 10, 2022, 08:45:25 PM
Hope you are well
Ok here are some pics but progress is slow
(Sorry Brian for the post hijack)
Now finally got a set of LC cases but going to fit 350AC barrels and head to solve my engine cooling requirements
Got the correct KTM duke front wheel coming and a set of engine side cases and planning for a local frame builder to do some slight changes to the frame to accommodate the AC barrels as they are wider than the original LC as shown in a couple of pics
Enjoy and happy Xmas
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/2acb38a13126ea14301e16211cda1223.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/dc06dc36c0bb3e6e61351c61a90f6584.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/3527011a573ac23a51ec91617ec31c76.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/fe3521a22999d93c7f60e7d930b3494b.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/43eb765d21a727c73d5a2acef20e288e.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/bd06fc30110df374fc259126aba15548.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/1820c07ca4709b6bc201f9a1fcf92eef.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/5af95604982bd65aaba82493f048d5e6.jpg)
Ps bit of yellow bike porn too as it you and bought a matching yellow speed block leather jacket the other day
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/f2a650f41103dfb5458f775dc0c7daab.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/a006f9e3c0c9b05d09c76acd2de54734.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221210/8e25f6d8af705a3ea804527b5c82718d.jpg)
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Post by: 400 Cafe Racer on December 10, 2022, 08:51:31 PM
Yes to that type of arrangement, but in agreement with you as to how effective it may be in cooling, I was referring to method of fixing as interesting point. The fit for F2 was this plus larger fins on head and barrels as complete package when they ran into trouble with lubrication on that model and kind of stop gap until the twin cam arrived in market.
Wondering the need for cooling as running oil too cold produces just as many problems as too hot. If you've no definite figures of your running example it may be worthwhile assessment to define this.
Running oil too cold, and especially at high rpm can bring unintended side effects. The pump is protected from hydraulic locking (virtually all engine have this) by a pressure bleed off valve that blows excess to sump effectively startng to starve key points in the lubrication system of supply, that's ordinarily the crank and big end bearing sites.
The flow is optimised for stated viscosity (varying with temp) at 90 degree C to give designed flow as originally tested and researched. You'd need to target this temp range in specifying cooling capacity.
I'm going to build a 460 engine for my bike, I have a spare 400 engine as a donor for the project and I now have most of the parts needed for the build, but I've read a lot of older posts claiming oil temp gets marginal with the larger bore size hence the need for additional cooling. I was looking to use an in-line oilstat to regulate the temp, being aware of the pitfalls of overcooling. (I'm an aircraft engineer by trade, spent decades working with both piston and gas turbine engines).
Hi,
Having fitted both an oil pressure guage and temp guage to my CB400F some months ago, I can confirm that in normal riding you will easily be running at 95c + with 40ish psi @ 3000 and if you give it the beans for a few miles you will be at 120c with 15psi @ 3000. I suspect the reason a low 4.5psi oil pressure switch used was to prevent worry of riders seeing the light blinking at idle on a hot engine.
IMHO If your seals and gaskets are newish, there is a definate case for synthetically improved oils which wern't available in the day to handle the higher temp better, and I will be running some tests next spring.
I think one of the major reasons for piston ring and groove failures is the deposits and gumming caused by burnt 10w 40 oil which cannot handle the excessive conditions at the top of the piston.
Regards
Dennis
Post by: 400 Cafe Racer on December 10, 2022, 09:07:57 PM
Yes to that type of arrangement, but in agreement with you as to how effective it may be in cooling, I was referring to method of fixing as interesting point. The fit for F2 was this plus larger fins on head and barrels as complete package when they ran into trouble with lubrication on that model and kind of stop gap until the twin cam arrived in market.
Wondering the need for cooling as running oil too cold produces just as many problems as too hot. If you've no definite figures of your running example it may be worthwhile assessment to define this.
Running oil too cold, and especially at high rpm can bring unintended side effects. The pump is protected from hydraulic locking (virtually all engine have this) by a pressure bleed off valve that blows excess to sump effectively startng to starve key points in the lubrication system of supply, that's ordinarily the crank and big end bearing sites.
The flow is optimised for stated viscosity (varying with temp) at 90 degree C to give designed flow as originally tested and researched. You'd need to target this temp range in specifying cooling capacity.
I'm going to build a 460 engine for my bike, I have a spare 400 engine as a donor for the project and I now have most of the parts needed for the build, but I've read a lot of older posts claiming oil temp gets marginal with the larger bore size hence the need for additional cooling. I was looking to use an in-line oilstat to regulate the temp, being aware of the pitfalls of overcooling. (I'm an aircraft engineer by trade, spent decades working with both piston and gas turbine engines).
Hi,
Having fitted both an oil pressure guage and temp guage to my CB400F some months ago, I can confirm that in normal riding you will easily be running at 95c + with 40ish psi @ 3000 and if you give it the beans for a few miles you will be at 120c with 15psi @ 3000. I suspect the reason a low 4.5psi oil pressure switch used was to prevent worry of riders seeing the light blinking at idle on a hot engine.
IMHO If your seals and gaskets are newish, there is a definate case for synthetically improved oils which wern't available in the day to handle the higher temp better, and I will be running some tests next spring.
I think one of the major reasons for piston ring and groove failures is the deposits and gumming caused by burnt 10w 40 oil which cannot handle the excessive conditions at the top of the piston.
Regards
Dennis
Post by: Laverdaroo on December 10, 2022, 09:16:31 PM
The LC looks better every time I look at it, clear clutch window too, what a tart! I love it ;D
Thats a tight squeeze with those barrels but I take it you're running a full fairing, hence the cooling issue? Either way, thats going to be an interesting ride, bet you cant wait? Especially as we all have a 90% 'complete bike' in our headsso have expectations etc. I was lucky when I put the Ducati together a few years ago, I was on garden leave and it was like a full time job and was kind of being paid to build my new ride but that looks like I'd rather be playing with that than working. It must be killing you ;D
That's really coming together though and looking great for it. What are those wheels and do you have a link to that headlight per chance, just for a comparible mooch, yer know ;)
Who's the portly chap wearing yer jacket though? Have you a brother? ;) ;D ;D
Post by: allankelly1 on December 10, 2022, 10:44:59 PM
Alan, mate, what a thing! ................I'm spent!Thanks Roo
The LC looks better every time I look at it, clear clutch window too, what a tart! I love it ;D
Thats a tight squeeze with those barrels but I take it you're running a full fairing, hence the cooling issue? Either way, thats going to be an interesting ride, bet you cant wait? Especially as we all have a 90% 'complete bike' in our headsso have expectations etc. I was lucky when I put the Ducati together a few years ago, I was on garden leave and it was like a full time job and was kind of being paid to build my new ride but that looks like I'd rather be playing with that than working. It must be killing you ;D
That's really coming together though and looking great for it. What are those wheels and do you have a link to that headlight per chance, just for a comparible mooch, yer know ;)
Who's the portly chap wearing yer jacket though? Have you a brother? ;) ;D ;D
Yes it’s a very tight squeeze so got my frame guy over soon to discuss opening up the trellis in this area to allow for the wider finned barrels
Went the AC route as no place or space for a rad
As for fairing planning it to be a naked bike like a Ducati monster as it would be a shame to hide away that lovely trellis frame and ac engine
Wheels by the way are KTM 390 Duke
Also jacket is a good excuse not to eat too much at Xmas
Best wishes Al
Ps led light on the yellow peril is a eBay item and here is the link
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/303960372602?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=711-127632-2357-0&ssspo=nbUfGDNkSn2&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=Na1jx0DbRzm&var=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY
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Post by: Scottish Badger on December 10, 2022, 10:56:35 PM
Yes to that type of arrangement, but in agreement with you as to how effective it may be in cooling, I was referring to method of fixing as interesting point. The fit for F2 was this plus larger fins on head and barrels as complete package when they ran into trouble with lubrication on that model and kind of stop gap until the twin cam arrived in market.
Wondering the need for cooling as running oil too cold produces just as many problems as too hot. If you've no definite figures of your running example it may be worthwhile assessment to define this.
Running oil too cold, and especially at high rpm can bring unintended side effects. The pump is protected from hydraulic locking (virtually all engine have this) by a pressure bleed off valve that blows excess to sump effectively startng to starve key points in the lubrication system of supply, that's ordinarily the crank and big end bearing sites.
The flow is optimised for stated viscosity (varying with temp) at 90 degree C to give designed flow as originally tested and researched. You'd need to target this temp range in specifying cooling capacity.
I'm going to build a 460 engine for my bike, I have a spare 400 engine as a donor for the project and I now have most of the parts needed for the build, but I've read a lot of older posts claiming oil temp gets marginal with the larger bore size hence the need for additional cooling. I was looking to use an in-line oilstat to regulate the temp, being aware of the pitfalls of overcooling. (I'm an aircraft engineer by trade, spent decades working with both piston and gas turbine engines).
Hi,
Having fitted both an oil pressure guage and temp guage to my CB400F some months ago, I can confirm that in normal riding you will easily be running at 95c + with 40ish psi @ 3000 and if you give it the beans for a few miles you will be at 120c with 15psi @ 3000. I suspect the reason a low 4.5psi oil pressure switch used was to prevent worry of riders seeing the light blinking at idle on a hot engine.
IMHO If your seals and gaskets are newish, there is a definate case for synthetically improved oils which wern't available in the day to handle the higher temp better, and I will be running some tests next spring.
Regards
Dennis
Dennis, thanks for that info, that's exactly what I needed to convince me of the need for a cooler!
Al, love that yellow LC, looks almost as good as an RD400 in the same colours.... I never knew that AC barrels would fit an LC bottom-end, every day's a school day and all that! Back in the 80's I was fitting 350 top-ends onto 250 bottom-ends, porting the barrels and fitting expansion pipes etc, all great fun! Realised the small-end width of the 250 rods was slightly less than the 350 bearings after destroying a couple, so started doing it right by fitting the 350 cranks as well, meaning we had to take the engines out to split the cases and do it properly, haha. Happy days!
Post by: Laverdaroo on December 10, 2022, 11:59:23 PM