Ignition - or lack of!

[Oggers]

Right- this blinking bike is doing my nut 

Finally after epic wiring problems, new regulator fitted and all wired up. Sprung into life first kick - Hooray. All sounded fine. So, as we are all bound to do, I did the usual cursory checks after buying a new (to me) bike. Tappets - fine, clean plugs- fine, clean points- fine, check points gap - fine. All good.

Reading about on this forum, time to do a bit of static timing - before I think of buying a strobe and doing the dynamic. Consult Haynes manual. Off with the blue capacitor wire for 1.4 cyl. Test lamp between Earth and breaker terminal, Ignition on. Turn the shaft, test lamp lights more or less at the right point, but I also noted quite a bright white glow at the points. This did not seem good. Lamp was disconnected and capacitor rewired as it was originally. Tested votage across battery with ignition off - 7V and seems to be charging! Very odd. Tried to start bike - no chance. Tested voltage across battery with ignition on - 3.5 V. No spark at points when gap is flicked open either! All fuses good by the by.

So - have I somehow goosed the capacitors? No idea how as  I was very careful to follow Haynes instructions. If so, can I get replacements easily enough?

All deeply frustrating - especially as I had it running quite nicely! !

[Lobo]

...slightly confused by your ‘bright white glow’ at the points... do you mean as in burning up !

If so the only explanation I can think of is that the coil has been taken out of the loop (somehow) ... and you’ve applied battery positive directly to one side of the points, and ground to the other. (eg as in the 2/3 points wiring in my attached pic)

This would indeed fit the approximate description of your woes. All said I’m surprised at the ‘white glow’ as I’d have figured any wiring might have failed first.

The battery ‘charging’ indication is likely the poor thing recovering after such a discharge.

Replacement capacitors (and indeed new points!) are very easy to come by (eBay, David Silvers etc), my guess is the capacitor still ok, though you’ve got yourself a much bigger headache in the meantime.

This fault is too big not to be something obvious....

[Oggers]

Hi Lobo

Many thanks for the respose. All I can say is that I attached one end of the test lamp to the 1.4 breaker terminal, the other to ground and turned ignition on. I disconnected the capacitor blue wire - as per Haynes instructions. The "glow" could well be the points frying - I have no idea, but it didn't look right for sure! I simply cannot think I have done anything daft - but that is is not to say I didn't...

.Can you explain the discharge of the battery when ignition is turned on - that seems most significant.....

Do you think the cure is new capicitors - and don't fiddle again!

Cheers

[Bryanj]

Dont understand why you would need to disconnect capacitor.
Haynes manual are ok for lighting barbecues, go to alladins cave and download the Honda one

[Oggers]

Bryan

I did so as Haynes said so. It said something like disconnect blue wire from capacitor - so I did. Do you believe in so doing this caused my grief? Can't see it myself.....

[Oggers]

just a thought - could the battery discharge on turning ignition on be the points somehow shorting across each other?

[Bryanj]

With capacitor not connected when the points open they spark and what you may have seen, dont know wasnt there, was a continuous arcing which would burn the contact face.
As to battery voltage dont know would need it in front of me.

Like i said Haynes manuals are useful for lighting fires

[Nurse Julie]

When you turn the ignition on,
1, are the idiot dashboard lights nice and bright
2, when you push the start button do the aforementioned lights dim and stay dim
3, after doing 1 and 2 can you hear the battery bubbling
4, report back

[Oggers]

Nurse

Battery is well down - around 10.5V. When ignition on, it's down to about 4V - Mine is US spec, so lights come on. I am assuming that is why is goes down so much, but it does seem to draw a great deal

However, one thing I will do is stick the battery on charge and take it from there.

[Nurse Julie]

Yes, check the battery out thoroughly. I have had a nightmare the last couple of days chasing a problem with my 400/4 electrics.
Long story shortened, changed switch gear about 2 months ago, put all the wiring back together, fitted battery to check everything was working OK, which it was, took battery back off, bike back into storage.
Gave battery a top up this Tuesday, fitted to bike, idiot lights, indicators all very, very dim, no sign of life when I hit the start button but idiot light went even dimmer and were flickering. I got Trig to test battery, which was all OK. Must be an earth problem, I thought 🤔. Checked and cleaned all earth's, no change. Took every connector in the loom apart to clean and check, still no good. Changed the main earth cable from the battery (as I have had one break down on another bike, which caused similar symptoms) , still no better. Temporarily plugged in different switch gear, no change, a new ignition lock and solenoid, still no change. I even took the starter motor out thinking it may have something to do with that. By this time I'm getting very annoyed to say the least. Trig then suggested fitting a different battery....... Boom, everything works perfectly. But that original battery checked out ok when tested. A bloody nightmare.

[mike the bike]

What is the battery voltage with the ignition switch on and kill switch off?

[Nurse Julie]

All I have to do now is put it all back together That's the easy bit though





Sent from my I3312 using Tapatalk

[Oggers]

Nurse - I feel your pain!

[K2-K6]

As a general check for the battery's health, remove from connection to the bike,  charge it slowly overnight,  disconnect it and then check voltage after about 15 minutes. This should give you a base level reading (without residual charger effects) of between 12.6 to 12.9 volts.

Between 12.1 and 12.5 MAY be serviceable in warmer temps but not winter.

Without it connected to anything,  check again after 24hr and it should be within the 12.6 to 12.9 range and should stay there after each successive 24hr period.  This would show the battery is ok. Anything drifting lower over subsequent days indicates it's not going to sustain the intended use. 

Below 12.0 volts after 24hrs and it's generally knackered.

[Lobo]

Oggers, time to get the meter out again? 🙁

Thinking out loud, I’m wondering whether you’ve fried a coil in your point testing... totally possible if the points were closed too long and 12v continually flowing through it.

I DON’T know however, whether such a failure can cause the BLACK/WHITE input to short circuit to the BLUE ... which might then apply 12v directly across the points and effectively short the battery? (see attached with short shown in red). Better qualified folks here can comment on this... tho’ a meter will certainly verify one way or another. (If indeed such a thing has happened, I’d honestly expect your Main 15A fuse to blow first...)

2nd possible failure is that the points insulation’s have failed in some way, ie the floating switch part is permanently connecting to ground. (Ie check the fibre washers all correct etc). Again... a meter will verify, and again, it might explain the unreasonable battery discharge.

Simon