Pyramid Parts Tapered head bearings.

[AshimotoK0]

Any advice on the thickness of the bottom washer on Pyramid Parts tapered head bearings when used on the 500K0

I remember on my 750K0 fitting these and the supplied washer was way too thick,  so I had to get it ground a lot thinner and even then the fork ear gaps were still slightly too big.

Someone suggested just using the seal that comes with them plus one or two of the normal washer that is  fitted with the standard ball bearing setup.

[Murf]

I gave up fitting the Pyramid taper bearings to my 550K1 and went with the standard Honda cup and cones. I didn’t like that the top bearing was 15mm in depth and the recess in the head less which leaves about 3mm of bearing sticking out.  I never got to try the bottom pyramid tapper bearings but the advice seems to be to not fit the thick washer that comes with the set.

The reason I gave up was because I just felt the distance between top and bottom yokes would end up wrong for the ears to fit well, plus the top bearing would not be protected from water ingress if riding in the rain. I just didn’t want any hassle down the line and the original set up should work fine.

[Johnny4428]

 Just went with the original set up on mine too,  the races were in reasonable condition so just cleaned and repacked with grease. Sorry Ash not much help!

[Oddjob]

Iirc Ash you need a spacer approx 2mm under the bottom race. If you use the seal that now comes with the kit these days you may need a slightly thinner washer.

Personally I think tapers are much better than the old ball bearing solution, they stiffen up the front due to the bigger contact area of the rollers versus the ball bearing. They also last far longer and require less maintenance.

The issue with the top race protruding isn’t really an issue imo, the top race fits inside it and the profile when it’s assembled isn’t that much different than ball bearings. The top locking nut is also dished so it should protect it from crud etc from getting in.

Most headstock bearings these days are tapered, if they weren’t better Honda wouldn’t fit them, which is something to consider.

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

With my limited experience I have noticed that the Pyramid kits seem to have improved since I used one on my 400 back in 2000/1.

The actual bearing height of the two tapered races added together in my kits have been less than original ball bearing fitting so top thread hight has been good on my 500 & my 400NA SD.

I have found that the supplied bottom spacer is too thick. I bought a selection of spacers for the bottom of the column. I found them on eBay sold as JCB bucket spacers.

[Johnny4428]

It’s amazing if you dig around what you can find Ted!😂

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

It’s amazing if you dig around what you can find Ted!😂

No pun intended, nice one. I'm back in hospital as from yesterday probably for a couple of days.

[Laverda Dave]

I've mentioned this a couple of times before on the forum but from my experiance with these kits I wouldn't bother with them (on the 400/4 anyway).
I tired a 1mm lower washer and could still only get 1.5 turns on the top dished nut. Dangerous in my opinion so I went back to the ball race set up.
Unless you are 'going for it' the difference between taper and ball bearings wouldn't even be noticed for everyday riding. If I had fitted tapers I'd be more worried about hitting one of the numerous deep potholes now common on our roads knowing I only have 1.5 turns on the top nut keeping me safe!















 

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

I've mentioned this a couple of times before on the forum but from my experiance with these kits I wouldn't bother with them (on the 400/4 anyway).
I tired a 1mm lower washer and could still only get 1.5 turns on the top dished nut. Dangerous in my opinion so I went back to the ball race set up.
Unless you are 'going for it' the difference between taper and ball bearings wouldn't even be noticed for everyday riding. If I had fitted tapers I'd be more worried about hitting one of the numerous deep potholes now common on our roads knowing I only have 1.5 turns on the top nut keeping me safe!

My 400 uses a hybrid arrangement iirc it's taper at the bottom and ball at the bottom so I agree. about the top thread  danger.

That said the later kits have shallower bearings as I know some members have fitted 400 ones without problems in the last couple of years.

My 500 already had taper rollers, the Pyramid kit was a straight fit as was my 400NA SD.

[Johnny4428]

It’s amazing if you dig around what you can find Ted!😂

No pun intended, nice one. I'm back in hospital as from yesterday probably for a couple of days.

Wishing you a speedy recovery Ted, all the best!

[AshimotoK0]

Thanks for replies chaps.

The jury's kind of out then. I may just trial fit the kit with 2 standard Honda washers + the rubber/metal seal that comes with the original kit and see how it goes. This will kind of replicate what Ken suggested. I have a really nice Honda puller to remove the bottom  race if I need to adjust.

Dave ... (Laderda Dave) ... a guy on VintageHondaTwins had problems on CB350 and found that there were two types of chrome top nut. One was fully threaded down to the bottom of the nut but another had a few mm unthreaded. He added a pic with both types side-by-side but I can't find it to show everyone 

Good luck with your recovery Ted !

[AshimotoK0]

Thanks for replies chaps.

The jury's kind of out then. I may just trial fit the kit with 2 standard Honda washers + the rubber/metal seal that comes with the original kit and see how it goes. This will kind of replicate what Ken suggested. I have a really nice Honda puller to remove the bottom  race if I need to adjust.

Dave ... (Laderda Dave) ... a guy on VintageHondaTwins had problems on CB350 and found that there were two types of chrome top nut. One was fully threaded down to the bottom of the nut but another had a few mm unthreaded. He added a pic with both types side-by-side but I can't find it to show everyone 

Good luck with your recovery Ted !

I got it wrong Dave .... here is the thread  on VHT

https://www.vintagehondatwins.com/forums/threads/issue-installing-allballs-steering-bearings-solved.1063/

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[Murf]

AshimotoKO The photo of the nuts showing the raised ridges where the two parts, nut and domed cover are fused together is interesting. Not just for the reasons you have posted them but also because the raised ridges are another reason I did not use the pyramid bearing kit. 
 
The top of the original cup and cone bearing sits perfectly on the flat area within the raised ridges, whereas the taper bearing is wider meaning that the ridges sat on top of the bearing edge and the pressure to the bearing from the nut was just being applied by the ridges. I felt this was totally wrong.

Yes I could have made up a washer to fit that would have transferred the forces into the flat area of the nut but thought why should I mess around trying to make something that is not right fit. Especially when I already have something that fits perfectly and designed for the bike.

I felt that the pyramid kit was probably designed on a computer without anyone ever trying it out on an actual bike.
BTW I have nothing against computers and like tapered bearings as head bearings, just hasn’t worked for me this time. 😁

[Bryanj]

Most of the taper bearing kits are a standard taper bearing with the od of the outer race ground to the size that fits the steering head, maybe some firms now make specials, i dont know,

[Laverda Dave]

Thanks for replies chaps.

The jury's kind of out then. I may just trial fit the kit with 2 standard Honda washers + the rubber/metal seal that comes with the original kit and see how it goes. This will kind of replicate what Ken suggested. I have a really nice Honda puller to remove the bottom  race if I need to adjust.

Dave ... (Laderda Dave) ... a guy on VintageHondaTwins had problems on CB350 and found that there were two types of chrome top nut. One was fully threaded down to the bottom of the nut but another had a few mm unthreaded. He added a pic with both types side-by-side but I can't find it to show everyone 

Good luck with your recovery Ted !

I got it wrong Dave .... here is the thread  on VHT

https://www.vintagehondatwins.com/forums/threads/issue-installing-allballs-steering-bearings-solved.1063/

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Interesting post Ash. I read the link to the US site and it does appear to be pot luck if the kit will actually fit the bike it is advertised for and the type of modification required. I agree with the guy who said he'd had enough of trying to make it fit and was going back to stock because there was a mountain of other work required on the bike. That's exactly how I felt at the time, I spent hours trying to get them to fit and calling and sending mails to Pyramid with photos as they requested. I gave up in the end and fitted caged balls.
There is very one interesting comment one guy made and that was to measure the original bearings in terms of height on the stem and then to measure the height of the tapers and that would give the thickness of washer required although this method will not work if the taper bearing race sticks out the top of the upper bearing housing as mine did.
As for the bearings themselves, these can be bought from Simply Bearings much cheaper (and better quality) than the supplied kits. Simply Bearings can also supply washers.