Contact breaker points

[Oddjob]

Good experiment. Might be an answer for other members as well. DS still has around 24 sets of 1-4s but no 2-3s. If it works it may just be an answer until he runs out of original points that is.
Be sure to let us know, could be very interesting.

[florence]

I have found it impossible to set the timing correctly with pattern points.  It seems the only way is to adjust as near as possible via back plate with correct points gap and then reduce points gap until they open at the F mark. If I set then up according to the correct procedure, the points never close.  It isn't ideal.  Makes me want to consider electronic ignition (shudders).

Thank you for your offer OddJob, I can't really afford that at the moment.  I have got some old TEC points which I might try to grind back to goodness by gently removing the pitting.

[florence]

would anyone be able to explain what happens if the points gap is less that 14 thou?

[deltarider]

[...] The only solution is to reduce the points gap on both. That means less dwell angle that it should have.[...]

Incorrect. The smaller the gap, the longer the dwell angle. A 0,3mm (0,012 inch) gap corresponds with a 49^o dwell angle (set at the 4 cyl scale), a 0,4mm gap (0,016 inch) with 46^o.
@ Florence in reply #17 Honda specified: 0.3 ~ 0.4mm (0.012 ~ 0.016 in.)
I like my breakerpoints to have the same gap as much as possible. I therefore prefer a dwellmeter using the 8 cyl scale ( 23^o - 24,5^o) for a stable reading.
You can (re)adjust the dwell dynamically. I do not recommend to set the timing dynamically. Better set and then check with stroboscopic light. You may need to repeat this more than once. 

[Oddjob]

Oh wow sue me, I guessed wrong after trying to remember stuff from 40 odd years ago. Principle is still the same, wrong dwell angle. Most people don’t own a dwell meter anyway. Really wish you’d stop recommending stuff, you have absolutely no practical experience to base it on after never being in the trade and tbh most of it is wrong anyway. You can watch as many videos as you want about plastering a wall but it doesn’t make you a plasterer only doing the job does that.

[florence]

please be nice to one another.

I was just hoping to find out if I'm likely to damage my engine by having a really small points gap?  I am not a mechanic just an enthusiastic amateur.

[exvalvesetdabbler]

I have had no problems  with diachi stuff from many years ago.  The only difference I have noticed is that they get an oxide coating if left for a long time.  There were some aftermarket ones floating around where there was a shim either missing or too thin that allowed the moving contact to move up/down on its post making the break point erratic.

To counter the possible corrosion during lay up or going away on holiday I leave a bit of oiled paper between the contacts. Just need to remember is like that before trying to fire it up.

My current set is tec that has been cleaned up at least 2-3 times over the years.  Just need to dismantle them and do each contact seperately to keep the contact faces square on. If there's a peak welded on one , take it off with a miniature file first and the work down grades of sand paper down to 800 grit.

The diachi ones are cleaned up and will get swapped in next time as/when needed.
 
Regards
Dave

[Oddjob]

Damage? No Florence, should be fine. Most people set the gap at 12 thou, tbh I couldn’t remember what the range was and whilst I knew I had got the dwell angle wrong I couldn’t be bothered to correct it and it didn’t make any difference to the answer anyway so I just left it.

[florence]

thank you for that, it was all very helpful and interesting.

Does anyone have a spare advance retard unit they can measure because I wonder also if my points cam might be worn?  I'm interested to know the distance from the highest point to the lowest. 

My search for decent points goes on as I have discovered electronic ignition system is £300!  I definitely cannot ever afford that.

[Oddjob]

It's not. The points heel is far softer and would wear away to nothing before it affected the lobe. Someone is running an experiment to see if fitted just the TEC 1-4 points would help the aftermarket 2-3 to time up correctly. No answer yet. I think the heel on TEC points are longer than aftermarket ones which allows for greater adjustment. It's a theory.

[deltarider]

What exactly are foresaid heels made of. Trespa?

[deltarider]

[...] Most people don’t own a dwell meter anyway. Really wish you’d stop recommending stuff, you have absolutely no practical experience to base it on after never being in the trade and tbh most of it is wrong anyway.

I've been working with dwell- and multimeters since mid 80s, so I have ample experience. The ANWB (the Dutch AA (with the best mechanics in the Netherlands)) had published a test of equipment in the market. Back then all these meters were analogue. In general they were not very good in measuring amps and resistances. They were all good if not excellent in reading volts, tach and dwell. I've never said anyone should have a dwell meter. All I've said in the international forum: if you need to buy a multimeter then make it an automotive one. The extra cost is neglectable.
Based on my experience I prefer analogue meters for reading volts (engine running!), dwell and tach. Reading a dial is intuitive and sooo much easier than hectic changing digits that your brain needs to interpret.
For volts (engine off!), resistances and amps I prefer digital.
My old analogue meter came out best of the test. Swiss made, it was extremely accurate and the big scale shows even the smallest increments. A joy to use.
 Anyone is free to test it out for themselves, Oddjob.

[Oddjob]

There you go again. How do you know the Dutch have the best mechanics, statistically that's pretty much impossible to say, the world out numbers them by a HUGE amount. Ever see a Honda Japanese mechanic work? Jesus it's an education in itself. They do most of it by fingertips, they don't seem to get dirty either, pristine overalls at the end of the day. I've worked with great mechanics and poor mechanics, one was so good Yamaha UK used to ring him up for advice. I also have an analogue dwell meter, I tested it against the official Honda machine, bloody great big wheel around machine with an oscilloscope. It tested out to within 1 degree, close enough I thought but it was adjustable so I altered it anyway. These are no longer available and finding a working one is rare. Most members on here have no idea what dwell angles are and even less on how to set it, even if they had the equipment. Is dwell setting better than gapping points, yes far better IMO, it ignores face damage for instance to a certain degree. Plus you set it whilst running the engine, far better. No idea why you mention volts and amps on a points thread but it doesn't surprise me, if in doubt prevaricate. 

[deltarider]

Best mechanics in the Netherlands. I've corrected.
The addition about volts, amps and resistances was just an extra. Just to inform folks not to expect just anything to be better when it is analogue cq digital. It's just some extra information based on years long experience that I like to share. Anything against communicating experience, Oddjob?

[exvalvesetdabbler]

It's not. The points heel is far softer and would wear away to nothing before it affected the lobe. Someone is running an experiment to see if fitted just the TEC 1-4 points would help the aftermarket 2-3 to time up correctly. No answer yet. I think the heel on TEC points are longer than aftermarket ones which allows for greater adjustment. It's a theory.

The trick used to be enlarging the oval slot on the points  base plate allow more adjustment