Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on October 21, 2022, 10:44:14 PM
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A pretty basic question about the 500 K1 was the engine originally all painted or were the side covers polished?
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From memory they were polished and clear lacquered
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They are painted and then lacquered, if you’ve ever polished a casing you’ll see how much the paint covers all the blemishes and casting marks are under the paint. There are LOADS.
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500 K0/K1
Crank cases = painted
Barrels = painted
Head = painted
Sump pan = painted
Oil filter housing = painted
Tacho drive housing = painted
Rocker cover = satin polished and lacquered
Breather cover = satin polished and lacquered
Alternator housing = satin polished and lacquered
Clutch cover = satin polished and lacquered
Left crank case / front sprocket cover = satin polished and lacquered
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Sorry Graham but you're wrong on this one, the casings are 100% painted and lacquered, Honda are still doing this to this day, there are a few reasons why they do it, firstly, it's cheaper, secondly, the casings are not as good as they appear, they need to disguise the casting marks and the blemishes that they exhibit, painting does that, polishing would actually get rid of a load of them, which shows they ain't polished, thirdly, time, it takes a good amount of time to polish a casing, even if you have the machinery, Honda didn't have the time for that, it would have delayed production and that's something Honda would never have allowed, Fourthly, the consistency, every casing looks the same, you can't get that with polishing, the alloy itself changes with each batch, even if it's only a little, fifthly, if you've ever sanded a casing by hand you can actually see the paint layer, you wouldn't see a polish layer and lastly, the finish is across the casings, into areas where you cannot polish even with really good equipment.
The paint they use is a sort of bright but matt silver, it's the lacquer which gives it the shine. I've never been able to find the colour and I expect it's something that Honda protects as they like secrets.
If you want proof, sand a brand new casing, one that's never been fitted and used. See how many marks are on the surface, there are swirls, injector markings where the alloy was injected and then the excess was cut off, sometimes there are really apparent, sometimes they don't show until you sand them, I've got a grab rail off a VT1100 that you can just make them out and that's after being sanded really flat, there are cavities, where an air bubble sat on the surface, paint fills those in, polishing doesn't.
The major difference between the casings and the crankcases etc are that the latter are unlacquered, the silver is just flat but oddly it's not the same silver as the casings are covered with.
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We have been through this before so many times and the silvery type coat that you think is silver paint is the acid etch used before the lacquer was applied ;)
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We'll agree to differ then, I can only say what I can see and acid etch wouldn't leave the layer you seem to think it would IMO.
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I don't agree about the casing being lacquered but they are 100% painted. Back in the day 5 wheel silver was the spray recommended as the best match. I've still got most of the original lacquer on my side cases but a couple of winters riding certainly aged them.
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FWIW my cases look like they have been polished in the past but lacquered afterwards as there is some yellowing.
I suspect not original but pretty shiny under the lacquer.
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The yellowing is the old original lacquer, it goes yellow with age and heat ;)
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I was under the impression that Honda and other Japanese Motorcycle producers used Mazak extensively as it was easier and cheaper to mould into intricate shapes. The trade off being that it doesn’t weather very well hence the use of paint to provide protection from the kind English elements of rain,frost,snow,fog and ice.
Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong.
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As it happens I own an original unfettled alternator case, chain case cover and clutch cover. What do I do to settle the debate? They are in fact 1977 550 F2 cases, so may only settle the case for that specific model and year?
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I’ll be the first to ask.
Mazak?
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I’ll be the first to ask.
Mazak?
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Also refered to as Zamak ?
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ZAMAK being a mnemonic made from the metal ingredients in German says Mr Google.
Aluminium, Zinc Magnesium And Copper
So MAZAK works as well.
ZAMAK (or Zamac, formerly trademarked as MAZAK) is a family of alloys with a base metal of zinc and alloying elements of aluminium, magnesium, and copper.ftp://
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As it happens I own an original unfettled alternator case, chain case cover and clutch cover. What do I do to settle the debate? They are in fact 1977 550 F2 cases, so may only settle the case for that specific model and year?
Sand a small area with fine wet and dry, when you have a patch down to the alloy surface look and see if you can see the rings where the lacquer and paint are, they'll look like tree rings.
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Will do, but not till next sat as currently in Gosport tying various types of sailing knots…
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I like an 'underhand overpush' with a 'biminy twist' personally ;)
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Thread starts off as 500 cases and now it has changed to 550F2 ::) Shall i have a look at my CD250 cases :o The 550F and K had paint on the rocker cover, were as the 500 did not
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All my 500 rocker covers were painted, never seen one bare alloy.
Whilst it started as a 500 thread the 550F2 also uses the same finish as the 500 so it's relevant to the topic. As I said, Honda are still using the same finish to this day, fork sliders are common in this finish, including both the 500 and 550 models.
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Like I said, my example may only be relevant to the 77 F2.
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Like I said, my example may only be relevant to the 77 F2.
No same finish was applied.
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I think you need a eye test Ken, if you think that the same paint is used across the Honda for the past 60 years :o
The CB750 changed from 1969 to 1979 and in the 80's Honda used a lot of ceramic paint on engine casings which the first i ever see on a SOHC was a CB750F2 ;)
Do you think that this is the same finish in the picture between a original CB750K1 clutch cover and a CD250 engine ::)
[attachimg=2]
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the casings are 100% painted and lacquered, Honda are still doing this to this day, I've got a grab rail off a VT1100 that you can just make them out and that's after being sanded really flat, there are cavities, where an air bubble sat on the surface, paint fills those in, polishing doesn't.
I didn't say they were using it on all models Graham, I just said they were still using it. My CB1300 for instance has the same finish on the clutch cover.
(https://i.postimg.cc/JzVZyLbk/DSCF0016-1.jpg) (https://postimages.org/)
Does the finish on those look familiar?
Or do the grab rails and engine covers on this VT1100 look the same?
(https://i.postimg.cc/43FzxhwJ/VT1100-left-side.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/mcCcdk0q)
You really don't like admitting you're wrong on this.
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Gentlemen, let us not fall out over such ab issue, just to put my two pen’orth in. Take a vintage British bike of any make and the engine cases are of Aluminium which respond to polishing up to mirror finish and do not readily corrode. Japanese bikes of any make or marque use Mazak or Zamak which without paint protection will bubble and corrode really quickly. Even with paint protection the underlying material can bubble and ‘rust’ by which I mean it returns to a white powdery substance.
Just to put this into perspective, I have a Mazda MX5 which has an aluminium bonnet, this has a couple of raised nodules which have lifted the paint but not broken it, in part due to poor initial preparation, followed by weathering which exacerbates the problem.
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I was thinking of cerakote (mebbe silver) on the engine I'm going to rebuild rather than VHT type paint. Anyone had this done a while ago? If so, is it still OK?
I had my Guzzi rocker covers cerakoted and I have to say they are very durable.....
Roo, did you say Nathan Cerakoted your engine??
Matt
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Roo has his engine done in Cerakote IIRC.
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Nathan has done two for me , they look mint, have a look on my 550 started thread. I'd grab the page but sitting in deprtures at Savannah air port and off in ten so need my adult head on and concentrate. I only saw this as i was closing down before boarding. Give him a shout, I havent spoken to him for a bit but hes more than likely flat out as ever so give him 3 weeks to sort it if you decide to go that way. Remind him to get some heatproof tape to cover the mating surfces, he forgot on mine as it was a saturday morning cash job, it comes off dead easy with a brass brush but its more particulate and another job. Just saying. Well worth it though it looks mint. Adios. 8)
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For those of you who maybe interested, Nathan runs this firm https://chameleonvapourblasting.co.uk/ (https://chameleonvapourblasting.co.uk/) (No connection apart from a v. happy customer.
Matt
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Have you managed a chat with him then Matt?
Seconded by the way, great chap
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Have you managed a chat with him then Matt?
Seconded by the way, great chap
Yes, he has done quite a bit for me. Will get my 400 engine cased cerakoted...
Matt
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