Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on March 05, 2023, 03:13:12 PM
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One end of my clutch pushrod is corroded quite badly on the outer surface does this matter or must I replace it?
If its okay to use what is the best way to protect it from becoming worse?
.(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52727832560_0d7e6d9c23_o.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2oknVBo)clutch pushrod (https://flic.kr/p/2oknVBo) by Macabe Thiele (https://www.flickr.com/photos/187487200@N03/), on Flickr
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Are they expensive Ted?
Could you clean it up then heat treat it to case harden. I wonder if hard chroming is possible?
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You can clean the rust off Ted with no problem. The problem area is where the seal sits on the chrome part, any wear or scoring causes a leak.
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Are they expensive Ted?
Could you clean it up then heat treat it to case harden. I wonder if hard chroming is possible?
DS show no longer available plus they are I believe made from three parts with the centre section being a tube.
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You can clean the rust off Ted with no problem. The problem area is where the seal sits on the chrome part, any wear or scoring causes a leak.
The corrosion has just started to creep into the last but one section so getting closer to the seal area I guess.
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To conserve the corrosion part, you could stand that end in rust converter fluid to stabilise, then just coat it in marine grease when installed to stop further deterioration.
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You have read my mind I've already dipped it in Evaporust overnight then Blued the end for protection.
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DSS have lots of matching rusty ones:
https://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/CB500K1-FOUR-1972/part_334325/
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You should be able to get it hard chromed Ted, I had mine done as it was as skanky as that one you're holding. Came out great and was about 35 quid I think.
Someone on here had some carb connecting bars done that looked ace, might have been Ken but have a look Iit might be on his back after 30 years thread I think........
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Difficult to chrome as the ends are steel but the middle ally as i remember, Honda did do a complete steel one but the clutch action was slow
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It was me Roo, it cost me £23 at the time iirc, just had 2 done a few weeks ago for the princely sum of £152.
As Bryan says they are a composite rod so not suitable I’d say for hard chroming.
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eek, thats dear isnt it?
There you go Ted, get after it with the 2000 grit :o
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Found an aftermarket direct replacement on CSML.
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CB500T pushrod (combined alloy and steel) is same as later 500 four pushrod.
Original 500K0 part was a 450 part and solid steel .. as was fitted on my 3/71 500K0 but I got a later one from 'BJMCaferacer' on eBay after an argument with about him sending it in two pieces and he claimed I was talking bollox about it being a one piece push-rod, as the one he first sent me was in fact a broken one.
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So many sellers believe its two piece
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There is one listed on e bay in 3 pieces!
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They are a 3 section rod on later ones or all one section as Ash has explained. They usually break in two parts as the chain hits it.
Yours is a common problem with the seal cutting in to the rod, which will cause the oil to weep past the seal. Have loads of rods that look the same as yours .
[attachimg=1]
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here ya go ted £12.50 delivered (worth asking for more pics though to see any marks better)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/185560330371
Note 323 part no. ;)
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
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They are a 3 section rod on later ones or all one section as Ash has explained. They usually break in two parts as the chain hits it.
Yours is a common problem with the seal cutting in to the rod, which will cause the oil to weep past the seal. Have loads of rods that look the same as yours .
(Attachment Link)
Is it brain fade or did someone (Graham maybe) get some made as specials?
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That's broken Ash, no metal part on one end and it should have metal parts on both ends. The end missing is the end which Ted has all the corrosion on.
There is a modern Honda which uses a push rod of the same diameter but it's slightly longer, I'm looking at using one of those when or should I say IF I can do an hydraulic clutch conversion, however it may be able to be adapted for use as a normal push rod. I'll take some measurements and see. It's also 3 parts, one long rod with 2 metal ends.
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I wonder if an old british dural push rod could be adapted to work🤔
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It's all about the diameter I'd imagine, it needs to be the exact same as the 500 or the seal won't seal.
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They are a 3 section rod on later ones or all one section as Ash has explained. They usually break in two parts as the chain hits it.
Yours is a common problem with the seal cutting in to the rod, which will cause the oil to weep past the seal. Have loads of rods that look the same as yours .
(Attachment Link)
Is it brain fade or did someone (Graham maybe) get some made as specials?
Similar thought from me. Seem to recall "silver" steel used, that's a ground to diameter stock heat treatable steel, and so suitable for something like this if bought in correct diameter. You could heat and quench the ends to harden after shaping them to correct radius.
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That's broken Ash, no metal part on one end and it should have metal parts on both ends. The end missing is the end which Ted has all the corrosion on.
There is a modern Honda which uses a push rod of the same diameter but it's slightly longer, I'm looking at using one of those when or should I say IF I can do an hydraulic clutch conversion, however it may be able to be adapted for use as a normal push rod. I'll take some measurements and see. It's also 3 parts, one long rod with 2 metal ends.
whoops .. how about this one Ken?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/385439436435
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They are a 3 section rod on later ones or all one section as Ash has explained. They usually break in two parts as the chain hits it.
Yours is a common problem with the seal cutting in to the rod, which will cause the oil to weep past the seal. Have loads of rods that look the same as yours .
(Attachment Link)
Is it brain fade or did someone (Graham maybe) get some made as specials?
Similar thought from me. Seem to recall "silver" steel used, that's a ground to diameter stock heat treatable steel, and so suitable for something like this if bought in correct diameter. You could heat and quench the ends to harden after shaping them to correct radius.
If you want a plain steel one you can use a 5 speed CB450 twin one but for some reason Honda lightened that part on the late 500K0's etc to a composite of alloy and steel combo.
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That's broken Ash, no metal part on one end and it should have metal parts on both ends. The end missing is the end which Ted has all the corrosion on.
There is a modern Honda which uses a push rod of the same diameter but it's slightly longer, I'm looking at using one of those when or should I say IF I can do an hydraulic clutch conversion, however it may be able to be adapted for use as a normal push rod. I'll take some measurements and see. It's also 3 parts, one long rod with 2 metal ends.
whoops .. how about this one Ken?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/385439436435
That ones fine Ash.
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They are a 3 section rod on later ones or all one section as Ash has explained. They usually break in two parts as the chain hits it.
Yours is a common problem with the seal cutting in to the rod, which will cause the oil to weep past the seal. Have loads of rods that look the same as yours .
(Attachment Link)
Is it brain fade or did someone (Graham maybe) get some made as specials?
Similar thought from me. Seem to recall "silver" steel used, that's a ground to diameter stock heat treatable steel, and so suitable for something like this if bought in correct diameter. You could heat and quench the ends to harden after shaping them to correct radius.
That's what I've been using for about 10 years. Had it made and treated at work. I also have a solid CB450 one, but have never tried it. I do notice that clutch bite point changes from cold to hot and thought it must be different expansion rates of engine and rod,
Modify message
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Whats all this then .. DS for 11 quid ??
https://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/CB450K2-SUPER-SPORT-1969/part_334320/
[attachimg=1]
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Pretty sure they would clean up OK...only surface corrosion by the looks of it
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That's been on the DS site for a while iirc - unless they have a box of NOS rusted ones.
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That's been on the DS site for a while iirc - unless they have a box of NOS rusted ones.
They do have a large box of rusty NOS pushrods and the one Ash put a link to is one of them.
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Depends on how deep the rust corrosion goes Ash. I've bought a couple so I'll let you know.
I wonder if anyone has tried to repair a broken one? a quick 4mm tap down the centre of each piece and you might be able to screw them together.
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Whats all this then .. DS for 11 quid ??
https://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/CB450K2-SUPER-SPORT-1969/part_334320/
Nice to be ignored. I posted the link a couple of days ago.
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We ignore you all the time Seabeowner ;D ;D ;D ;D
Just joking.
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Whats all this then .. DS for 11 quid ??
https://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/CB450K2-SUPER-SPORT-1969/part_334320/
Nice to be ignored. I posted the link a couple of days ago.
I wasn't ignoring you ..never saw your post. You try to help people on here but it comes back in your face.
Often wonder why I bother .. don't need anything for any of my bikes ..just trying to help others.
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What strikes me as odd is that Honda do not use the same part number across different models?
I've ordered a pattern part from CSML so I will report back.
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Part arrived from CSML a couple of days ago it is a brilliant replica - no extra import duty cost me £59.28 including postage & exchange rate etc.
Not cheap but well pleased - its like the original a composite of three sections.
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Result Ted!
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Thought I'd post some results on the DS rusty rods they are selling.
I thought I'd order a few and see if they were able to be reclaimed, I thought 5 would be a good start and they arrived this morning along with some other bits I'd ordered.
However I must warn anyone thinking of doing this, it seems to be pot luck what you get. At first I thought I'd got around 2 decent ones, 2 so so and 1 bad. I took some before and after pics of them so you can see what I recieved, you may be lucky and get a good one or you may be unlucky and get a bad one, whether they sorted them and send me the best ones available I couldn't say, not beyond the realms of possibilities.
I graded them worst to best. Some had one end ok and some had both ends ok.
The important part first. Apologies for poor quality pic. Worst is at the bottom. The important part here are the lines, there are 4 lines on a genuine rod, (and of course I only took a pic with the first 3 in DOH!!) the first 3 sections aren't that important TBH, they are inside the lifter mechanism and so long as that is intact and unbroken the rod will work fine, the important part is the 4th section, that's where the seal sits. You can see rust on the top rod in that section and as it turns out that rod was almost junk. As we'll see later.
(https://i.postimg.cc/yY7XdHdX/IMG-3100.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/hh37yNVf)
Now the end inside the clutch basket and also inside the clutch mushroom, not vitally important this section, it's covered in oil all the time so even a little rust won't go any further, so long as it's intact and the rust has been removed I'd say it's ok. What you can see on that pic is the condition of the alloy part of the rods, some surface staining and corrosion going on but nothing too bad.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DwygCT3y/IMG-3099.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/SJ3CsHKw)
So that's before, let's see after. As I said before, it's the 4th section that's important and the top rod is badly corroded, it could possibly be reclaimed, maybe a smear of araldite and smoothing off afterwards could work. Bottom 3 rods are good in that area, the one next to top has some corrosion on the 4th section BUT it's not where the seals sweeps so that is also a good rod. In case you're wondering where exactly the seal sits it's about halfway down the 4th section and it goes inward about 5mm and outwards about 8mm, I think the inward movement is rebound from when the clutch slams shut. The outward is from the clutch lifter action. If you study Teds pic at the start of the thread you can clearly see the amount of sweep involved.
(https://i.postimg.cc/G3xG65QB/IMG-3102.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/dDDhyngv)
Other end. Only the nearest rod had any significant corrosion but nothing major, doesn't matter as I said, very usable either way.
(https://i.postimg.cc/cLHRRBfv/IMG-3101.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/kB0R981C)
And finally a pic of them all done, all the alloy corrosion and staining removed and the rods nicely polished up.
(https://i.postimg.cc/gkc8pHSg/IMG-3103.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/s18v97RW)
So in conclusion, are they worth the money, yes if you get a good one, no if you get a bad one and a maybe if you get a so so one. Took me about 20 mins on each one to get them to that condition but I have the stuff to do that easily, by hand? a couple of hours work I reckon.
Cost of a new genuine rod is around £70-80 or so, some as low as £50 but involve large amounts of postage and possibly import duties.
A copy rod is as Ted says around £50. HOWEVER, Ted was correct in saying they are constructed in pieces (only 2 pieces looking at the pic on CMS) but incorrect in saying they are constructed the same, they are not. The copy rod only has 3 lines not 4 lines like the original, the part where the seal sweeps is actually on the rod not on the steel bonded section. Not sure what the rod is made of but if the seals sitting on alloy it won't wear the same as steel, if the rod is steel are we going to get the expansion (and possible clutch slip) when it gets hot that made Honda make the rod in 3 parts in the first place.
The choice now is yours, take a chance or not.
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Thought I'd post some results on the DS rusty rods they are selling.
I thought I'd order a few and see if they were able to be reclaimed, I thought 5 would be a good start and they arrived this morning along with some other bits I'd ordered.
However I must warn anyone thinking of doing this, it seems to be pot luck what you get. At first I thought I'd got around 2 decent ones, 2 so so and 1 bad. I took some before and after pics of them so you can see what I recieved, you may be lucky and get a good one or you may be unlucky and get a bad one, whether they sorted them and send me the best ones available I couldn't say, not beyond the realms of possibilities.
I graded them worst to best. Some had one end ok and some had both ends ok.
The important part first. Apologies for poor quality pic. Worst is at the bottom. The important part here are the lines, there are 4 lines on a genuine rod, (and of course I only took a pic with the first 3 in DOH!!) the first 3 sections aren't that important TBH, they are inside the lifter mechanism and so long as that is intact and unbroken the rod will work fine, the important part is the 4th section, that's where the seal sits. You can see rust on the top rod in that section and as it turns out that rod was almost junk. As we'll see later.
Now the end inside the clutch basket and also inside the clutch mushroom, not vitally important this section, it's covered in oil all the time so even a little rust won't go any further, so long as it's intact and the rust has been removed I'd say it's ok. What you can see on that pic is the condition of the alloy part of the rods, some surface staining and corrosion going on but nothing too bad.
So that's before, let's see after. As I said before, it's the 4th section that's important and the top rod is badly corroded, it could possibly be reclaimed, maybe a smear of araldite and smoothing off afterwards could work. Bottom 3 rods are good in that area, the one next to top has some corrosion on the 4th section BUT it's not where the seals sweeps so that is also a good rod. In case you're wondering where exactly the seal sits it's about halfway down the 4th section and it goes inward about 5mm and outwards about 8mm, I think the inward movement is rebound from when the clutch slams shut. The outward is from the clutch lifter action. If you study Teds pic at the start of the thread you can clearly see the amount of sweep involved.
Other end. Only the nearest rod had any significant corrosion but nothing major, doesn't matter as I said, very usable either way.
So in conclusion, are they worth the money, yes if you get a good one, no if you get a bad one and a maybe if you get a so so one. Took me about 20 mins on each one to get them to that condition but I have the stuff to do that easily, by hand? a couple of hours work I reckon.
Cost of a new genuine rod is around £70-80 or so, some as low as £50 but involve large amounts of postage and possibly import duties.
A copy rod is as Ted says around £50. HOWEVER, Ted was correct in saying they are constructed in pieces (only 2 pieces looking at the pic on CMS) but incorrect in saying they are constructed the same, they are not. The copy rod only has 3 lines not 4 lines like the original, the part where the seal sweeps is actually on the rod not on the steel bonded section. Not sure what the rod is made of but if the seals sitting on alloy it won't wear the same as steel, if the rod is steel are we going to get the expansion (and possible clutch slip) when it gets hot that made Honda make the rod in 3 parts in the first place.
The choice now is yours, take a chance or not.
As usual Ken is right in addition I would add that the CSML part "appears" to be in two parts all steel but it might be one piece hard to tell for sure - the finish looks like either hard chrome or even steel tube, it weighs 97 g compared to 45 g against my original.
The original part has four lines but the fourth line looks like a joint where the alloy tube is joined to the steel end it is not a full groove like the first three. I did wonder if the CSML is a copy of the early version?
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Funnily enough Ted the pic CMS uses to show the original rod only has 3 lines, could be a very early version or might not be a 500 rod at all, just a generic pic.