Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: AshimotoK0 on October 22, 2025, 09:37:42 AM
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Any advice on the thickness of the bottom washer on Pyramid Parts tapered head bearings when used on the 500K0
I remember on my 750K0 fitting these and the supplied washer was way too thick, so I had to get it ground a lot thinner and even then the fork ear gaps were still slightly too big.
Someone suggested just using the seal that comes with them plus one or two of the normal washer that is fitted with the standard ball bearing setup.
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I gave up fitting the Pyramid taper bearings to my 550K1 and went with the standard Honda cup and cones. I didn’t like that the top bearing was 15mm in depth and the recess in the head less which leaves about 3mm of bearing sticking out. I never got to try the bottom pyramid tapper bearings but the advice seems to be to not fit the thick washer that comes with the set.
The reason I gave up was because I just felt the distance between top and bottom yokes would end up wrong for the ears to fit well, plus the top bearing would not be protected from water ingress if riding in the rain. I just didn’t want any hassle down the line and the original set up should work fine.
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Just went with the original set up on mine too, the races were in reasonable condition so just cleaned and repacked with grease. Sorry Ash not much help!
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Iirc Ash you need a spacer approx 2mm under the bottom race. If you use the seal that now comes with the kit these days you may need a slightly thinner washer.
Personally I think tapers are much better than the old ball bearing solution, they stiffen up the front due to the bigger contact area of the rollers versus the ball bearing. They also last far longer and require less maintenance.
The issue with the top race protruding isn’t really an issue imo, the top race fits inside it and the profile when it’s assembled isn’t that much different than ball bearings. The top locking nut is also dished so it should protect it from crud etc from getting in.
Most headstock bearings these days are tapered, if they weren’t better Honda wouldn’t fit them, which is something to consider.
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With my limited experience I have noticed that the Pyramid kits seem to have improved since I used one on my 400 back in 2000/1.
The actual bearing height of the two tapered races added together in my kits have been less than original ball bearing fitting so top thread hight has been good on my 500 & my 400NA SD.
I have found that the supplied bottom spacer is too thick. I bought a selection of spacers for the bottom of the column. I found them on eBay sold as JCB bucket spacers.
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It’s amazing if you dig around what you can find Ted!😂
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It’s amazing if you dig around what you can find Ted!😂
No pun intended, nice one. I'm back in hospital as from yesterday probably for a couple of days.
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I've mentioned this a couple of times before on the forum but from my experiance with these kits I wouldn't bother with them (on the 400/4 anyway).
I tired a 1mm lower washer and could still only get 1.5 turns on the top dished nut. Dangerous in my opinion so I went back to the ball race set up.
Unless you are 'going for it' the difference between taper and ball bearings wouldn't even be noticed for everyday riding. If I had fitted tapers I'd be more worried about hitting one of the numerous deep potholes now common on our roads knowing I only have 1.5 turns on the top nut keeping me safe!
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I've mentioned this a couple of times before on the forum but from my experiance with these kits I wouldn't bother with them (on the 400/4 anyway).
I tired a 1mm lower washer and could still only get 1.5 turns on the top dished nut. Dangerous in my opinion so I went back to the ball race set up.
Unless you are 'going for it' the difference between taper and ball bearings wouldn't even be noticed for everyday riding. If I had fitted tapers I'd be more worried about hitting one of the numerous deep potholes now common on our roads knowing I only have 1.5 turns on the top nut keeping me safe!
My 400 uses a hybrid arrangement iirc it's taper at the bottom and ball at the bottom so I agree. about the top thread danger.
That said the later kits have shallower bearings as I know some members have fitted 400 ones without problems in the last couple of years.
My 500 already had taper rollers, the Pyramid kit was a straight fit as was my 400NA SD.
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It’s amazing if you dig around what you can find Ted!😂
No pun intended, nice one. I'm back in hospital as from yesterday probably for a couple of days.
Wishing you a speedy recovery Ted, all the best!
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Thanks for replies chaps.
The jury's kind of out then. I may just trial fit the kit with 2 standard Honda washers + the rubber/metal seal that comes with the original kit and see how it goes. This will kind of replicate what Ken suggested. I have a really nice Honda puller to remove the bottom race if I need to adjust.
Dave ... (Laderda Dave) ... a guy on VintageHondaTwins had problems on CB350 and found that there were two types of chrome top nut. One was fully threaded down to the bottom of the nut but another had a few mm unthreaded. He added a pic with both types side-by-side but I can't find it to show everyone :-[
Good luck with your recovery Ted !
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Thanks for replies chaps.
The jury's kind of out then. I may just trial fit the kit with 2 standard Honda washers + the rubber/metal seal that comes with the original kit and see how it goes. This will kind of replicate what Ken suggested. I have a really nice Honda puller to remove the bottom race if I need to adjust.
Dave ... (Laderda Dave) ... a guy on VintageHondaTwins had problems on CB350 and found that there were two types of chrome top nut. One was fully threaded down to the bottom of the nut but another had a few mm unthreaded. He added a pic with both types side-by-side but I can't find it to show everyone :-[
Good luck with your recovery Ted !
I got it wrong Dave .... here is the thread ;D on VHT
https://www.vintagehondatwins.com/forums/threads/issue-installing-allballs-steering-bearings-solved.1063/
[attachimg=1]
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AshimotoKO The photo of the nuts showing the raised ridges where the two parts, nut and domed cover are fused together is interesting. Not just for the reasons you have posted them but also because the raised ridges are another reason I did not use the pyramid bearing kit.
The top of the original cup and cone bearing sits perfectly on the flat area within the raised ridges, whereas the taper bearing is wider meaning that the ridges sat on top of the bearing edge and the pressure to the bearing from the nut was just being applied by the ridges. I felt this was totally wrong.
Yes I could have made up a washer to fit that would have transferred the forces into the flat area of the nut but thought why should I mess around trying to make something that is not right fit. Especially when I already have something that fits perfectly and designed for the bike.
I felt that the pyramid kit was probably designed on a computer without anyone ever trying it out on an actual bike.
BTW I have nothing against computers and like tapered bearings as head bearings, just hasn’t worked for me this time. 😁
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Most of the taper bearing kits are a standard taper bearing with the od of the outer race ground to the size that fits the steering head, maybe some firms now make specials, i dont know,
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Thanks for replies chaps.
The jury's kind of out then. I may just trial fit the kit with 2 standard Honda washers + the rubber/metal seal that comes with the original kit and see how it goes. This will kind of replicate what Ken suggested. I have a really nice Honda puller to remove the bottom race if I need to adjust.
Dave ... (Laderda Dave) ... a guy on VintageHondaTwins had problems on CB350 and found that there were two types of chrome top nut. One was fully threaded down to the bottom of the nut but another had a few mm unthreaded. He added a pic with both types side-by-side but I can't find it to show everyone :-[
Good luck with your recovery Ted !
I got it wrong Dave .... here is the thread ;D on VHT
https://www.vintagehondatwins.com/forums/threads/issue-installing-allballs-steering-bearings-solved.1063/
(Attachment Link)
Interesting post Ash. I read the link to the US site and it does appear to be pot luck if the kit will actually fit the bike it is advertised for and the type of modification required. I agree with the guy who said he'd had enough of trying to make it fit and was going back to stock because there was a mountain of other work required on the bike. That's exactly how I felt at the time, I spent hours trying to get them to fit and calling and sending mails to Pyramid with photos as they requested. I gave up in the end and fitted caged balls.
There is very one interesting comment one guy made and that was to measure the original bearings in terms of height on the stem and then to measure the height of the tapers and that would give the thickness of washer required although this method will not work if the taper bearing race sticks out the top of the upper bearing housing as mine did.
As for the bearings themselves, these can be bought from Simply Bearings much cheaper (and better quality) than the supplied kits. Simply Bearings can also supply washers.
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I think tapers are much better than the old ball bearing solution, they stiffen up the front due to the bigger contact area of the rollers versus the ball bearing. They also last far longer and require less maintenance.
Out of interest: how do you determine the then different/new torque setting for the top cap? Spring-scale?
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Iirc Ash you need a spacer approx 2mm under the bottom race. If you use the seal that now comes with the kit these days you may need a slightly thinner washer.
Personally I think tapers are much better than the old ball bearing solution, they stiffen up the front due to the bigger contact area of the rollers versus the ball bearing. They also last far longer and require less maintenance.
The issue with the top race protruding isn’t really an issue imo, the top race fits inside it and the profile when it’s assembled isn’t that much different than ball bearings. The top locking nut is also dished so it should protect it from crud etc from getting in.
Most headstock bearings these days are tapered, if they weren’t better Honda wouldn’t fit them, which is something to consider.
Based on what Ken is telling me plus hate buying stuff and having to trash it ...I think I (and Ben Powell) will persevere.
Good point Murf (sorry don't know your Christian name :-[ ) on the seating of the top race and I will make a thin shim to correct this once I have measured the parts.
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AshimotoKO The photo of the nuts showing the raised ridges where the two parts, nut and domed cover are fused together is interesting. Not just for the reasons you have posted them but also because the raised ridges are another reason I did not use the pyramid bearing kit.
The top of the original cup and cone bearing sits perfectly on the flat area within the raised ridges, whereas the taper bearing is wider meaning that the ridges sat on top of the bearing edge and the pressure to the bearing from the nut was just being applied by the ridges. I felt this was totally wrong.
Yes I could have made up a washer to fit that would have transferred the forces into the flat area of the nut but thought why should I mess around trying to make something that is not right fit. Especially when I already have something that fits perfectly and designed for the bike.
I felt that the pyramid kit was probably designed on a computer without anyone ever trying it out on an actual bike.
BTW I have nothing against computers and like tapered bearings as head bearings, just hasn’t worked for me this time. 😁
Intresting point you raise Murf. When I was having trouble fitting mine I called Pyramid and spoke with the owner. He told me they had a similar issue with a kit they supplied for a Kawasaki (I think it was a KH) and they solved that by using a half bearing although I have no idea what a half bearing is having never seen one. The bearing would sit lower in the housing and would allow the fitting of the top nut. He asked me to send photos with measurements detailing the problems I was having with mine to enable him to work on a solution. I never heard anything back but I notice from just looking at their website they are still selling the same kit for the 400/4, very odd considering it doesn't fit properly (on my bike anyway). There isn't much of a description of the kit either only that it is a full set of bearings with grease and seals, nothing about any spacers being required (or supplied).
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I think tapers are much better than the old ball bearing solution, they stiffen up the front due to the bigger contact area of the rollers versus the ball bearing. They also last far longer and require less maintenance.
Out of interest: how do you determine the then different/new torque setting for the top cap? Spring-scale?
Yes, I use a spring scale. I find it more accurate than a torque setting.
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Yes, I use a spring scale. I find it more accurate than a torque setting.
Would the 1.5~2.0kg/3.3~4.4lbs (given in Honda manual for larger bikes like the ST1100) also apply on the lighter 400/500/550?
Since I (yet) have never found a Pyramid (or any) kit that would actually fit the motorcycle at hand, I'm still biased... :-\
No fitting seals, shims/washers provided either too thick or too thin, bearing races too tall, not enough thread left for stem nut, top bridge height ends up wrong, neither steering lock nor limiters would engage properly... :o
OEM set OTOH is a no-brainer; installs right out the box, pack with marine lube, torque nut to the specs given in the manual, swivel, recheck, done... quick, precise, no headache... and most important: no 'headshake' when out on the road...
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I'm faced with a similar dilemma on my 350 Forza Maxi Scoot. It's coming up to 3 years old next May and therefore will need an MOT. Lots of owners on that Forum have had steering head bearing failures at MOT time - a definite 'notch' at the dead ahead position but no slackness. Checking a manual download (in the Thai language!) the very good diagrams show a glorified bicycle set-up with caged balls top and bottom and NO TOP YOKE! Stanchions finish at the bottom yoke which must put an excessive load on the bottom bearing which is not 'shared' with the top bearing conventionally. My bike is just coming up to 9000 miles, others have been far less and yes, mine too is notchy - not dangerous but I don't even want an advisory on the MOT history. It's a time consuming job to replace the bearings - almost all of the plastic has to be removed, a process fraught with disaster at the hands of any ham-fisted 'technicians', so I will do the job myself over winter. Honda claim 'no knowledge' of a problem and suggest 'wear and tear'. I certainly aint putting Honda bearings back in for them to fail so quickly. So I will be sourcing taper rollers, hopefully from Timken. I'm fortunate having machining facilities if needed for collars, spacers, shields etc, providing I can find bearings of the right size - I'll only know that when I strip it.
Ian
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As there are no spring balance figures for the early sohc bikes I used those figures as a guideline. I found around 3.5 to be about right. I must say though that my kit was bought around 1980 and they fitted just fine, I tried without the spacer under the bottom race first but the steering locks fouled on the frame. There were 3 different sized spacers iirc and I fitted the middle of the 3. It’s apart right now as the frame got powder coated but I can’t tell you any sizes as yet until I get some mobility back due to my recent health problems.
I personally don’t rate the Pyramid kit, however it does seem to be one of the few left on the market, shame it doesn’t fit as well as it should. My tapers have done around 60-70k and they are still perfect so they’ll be going back in for another session soon.
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I'm faced with a similar dilemma on my 350 Forza Maxi Scoot. It's coming up to 3 years old next May and therefore will need an MOT. Lots of owners on that Forum have had steering head bearing failures at MOT time - a definite 'notch' at the dead ahead position but no slackness. Checking a manual download (in the Thai language!) the very good diagrams show a glorified bicycle set-up with caged balls top and bottom and NO TOP YOKE! Stanchions finish at the bottom yoke which must put an excessive load on the bottom bearing which is not 'shared' with the top bearing conventionally. My bike is just coming up to 9000 miles, others have been far less and yes, mine too is notchy - not dangerous but I don't even want an advisory on the MOT history. It's a time consuming job to replace the bearings - almost all of the plastic has to be removed, a process fraught with disaster at the hands of any ham-fisted 'technicians', so I will do the job myself over winter. Honda claim 'no knowledge' of a problem and suggest 'wear and tear'. I certainly aint putting Honda bearings back in for them to fail so quickly. So I will be sourcing taper rollers, hopefully from Timken. I'm fortunate having machining facilities if needed for collars, spacers, shields etc, providing I can find bearings of the right size - I'll only know that when I strip it.
Ian
A lot of manufacturers don't put much grease on the bearings when in the factory so they're never going to last very long. 😖
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As there are no spring balance figures for the early sohc bikes I used those figures as a guideline. I found around 3.5 to be about right.
Just had a peek into the "Honda Common Service Manual" (always interesting read 8) ):
- loose ball bearing type:
tighten bearing adjustment nut to 15Nm/10ft-lb, then back off 1/8th turn, check free movement
- retainer type bearings:
tighten bearing adjustment nut to 25Nm/18ft-lb, swivel, recheck for 25Nm/18ft-lb
- tapered bearing type:
tighten bearing adjustment nut to 11Nm/8ft-lb, swivel, recheck for 11Nm/18ft-lb
This should give a good baseline while installing; note that the actual figures might change with model, refer to the specific manual.
The spring scale load reading/check varies with the radius (distance between steering stem center and fork tube), so above preload divided by distance = desired measurement.
i.e. 15Nm/10ft-lb : 7.5cm/3inch -> should read 2kg/4.5lb on the spring scale.
hope this helps someone
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Yes, I use a spring scale. I find it more accurate than a torque setting.
Would the 1.5~2.0kg/3.3~4.4lbs (given in Honda manual for larger bikes like the ST1100) also apply on the lighter 400/500/550?
Since I (yet) have never found a Pyramid (or any) kit that would actually fit the motorcycle at hand, I'm still biased... :-\
No fitting seals, shims/washers provided either too thick or too thin, bearing races too tall, not enough thread left for stem nut, top bridge height ends up wrong, neither steering lock nor limiters would engage properly... :o
OEM set OTOH is a no-brainer; installs right out the box, pack with marine lube, torque nut to the specs given in the manual, swivel, recheck, done... quick, precise, no headache... and most important: no 'headshake' when out on the road...
I've mentioned before about more fitted kits.
Contemporary purchase, we used Dave Degens at his shop over in Putney as he sold them in kits.
From memory, he had one of the tracks ground to facilitate this fitting within the original schema/dimensions of the Honda factory fit. Basically, decent taper rollers don't fit within the space of ball type bearings.
Tapers will by far out perform the ball track type generally, especially given some of the cheapest materials used(not necessarily honda) across motorcycle manufacturing.
The bit I'm not sure of is exactly what he altered. I recall one component, and possibly thats the top fit outer track for depth. They could have just been put in lines on a mag base carriage of a surface grinding machine to get a easy pass over them and reduce that dimension. They don't necessarily need dome of those dimensions fully in 0lace for this application as they would in something like a wheel bearing fitment.
Also at that time, we made any spacers we wanted, being apprentice in engineering.
I've still got some dimensions and drawing for required spacer my friend made for the 750F2 he has from that time period ;D
Currently, I've moved to CV molybdenum black grease for installation like this as there's no requirement for speed/drag consideration as exists in wheel bearing use, for example.
Although we do use the same in son's bicycle wheel bearings to live with the torque he can blast through them, still snaps spokes with regularity though, with legs that would do service powering a Sir Nigel Gresley locomotive ;D