Honda-SOHC
SOHC.co.uk Forums => CB500/550 => Topic started by: Ewan 500 K1 on July 24, 2013, 10:54:27 PM
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Hi Folks, just got my engine back togeather today and its now ready to go back in the fram so that I can start to do a full new wiring loom for the cafe racer. This will be my first attempt at doing a full rewires, anyone got any idea what size / spec of wires I should be using for the various circuits ?
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Something a step up from the installed fuses. This will give you an idea.
http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/cable/standardcable.php
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If given a choice you need a lot of small strands rather than a few thick ones as this gives flexibility
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Further blurb / possible help here...
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/66/category/11
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The standard wire or 'high preformance / thinwall' stuff will I think do most of the wiring - I followed the guidelines in vwp catalouge (see link in above post) I re wired my 550k3 using the 'high preformance/ thinwall' stuff, I think I'd give the standard stuff a go next time as it wasn't that nice to crimp onto and I think the stock honda looms are better, also the std jap connectors insulation is a better fit on the basic speck wire. The thinwall stuff might be worth using if trying to have a skinny loom for cosmtic reasons.
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thanks for those hints and tips, this form is just invaluable for grtting pointed in the right direction. Spent all day looking at the wiring and working out what I need to get ... what a state the old loom was in. So what I found was :
Headlight and charging circuits: cable OD = 2.5mm, core wires OD = 1.5mm..... which means the cross sectional area is 1.8mm sqaure , ie near enough 2mm. The core was made of 50 single strands of between 0.1 & 0.2 mm diameter
All the other wiring: cable OD = 2.3mm, core wires OD = 1mm.. ...which means it has a cross sectional area of 0.8mm sqaure, ie near enough 1mm
So plan is to order dome standard PVC sheathed 2mm wire for charging and headlight circuit and 1mm wire for the rest
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Blimey Ewan.... been doing your homework! From this point on I suspect you've just installed yourself as resident guru on motorcycle wiring!
Good luck with the loom, be sure to treat yourself to quality bullets / crimping tool (ie not the cheapo stuff from Halfords etc)
Lobo
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Blimey Ewan.... been doing your homework! From this point on I suspect you've just installed yourself as resident guru on motorcycle wiring!
Good luck with the loom, be sure to treat yourself to quality bullets / crimping tool (ie not the cheapo stuff from Halfords etc)
Lobo
.. another excuse for a day in the shed ignoring all other responsibilities. ;) Got a load of bullets a while ago but they dont seem to be ideal as the existing male bullets on various components dont sit in the female sides of the new ones all that snuggly.
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I often find the male bullets on old components appear a bit loose on new female fittings, I just give the offending female fitting a gentle squeeze with some pliers which proves to do the job. I use vwp sourced jap bullet connectors with seperate insulation btw. I prefer to solder the connections once made as I have a cheaper type crimping tool - my autosparks loom made with lucas bullet connectors - properly crimped with the bees knees tool costing £80 for the tool still has lost a number of connectors over the years but my slodered connectors have lasted better.
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Hondas of this age used a slightly smaller bullet than other jap bikes so don't fit very well. Most new ones are the bigger size so I replace both male and female together.
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Hondas of this age used a slightly smaller bullet than other jap bikes so don't fit very well. Most new ones are the bigger size so I replace both male and female together.
looks ,like I'll need to go with that then Mick, cheers. Least I'll get a handle on crimping by the end of it all ;)
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Dunno how spec you want to be; but (eg) my '72 K2 & '77 400F both use 3.5mm bullet connectors. These are bloody hard to get, I've only ever managed to source them from the 'states. eg
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Male-Bullet-Barrel-Terminal-3-5mm-20-18AWG-Insulated-MB352018IN-/250988766833?pt=Car_Audio_Video&vxp=mtr&hash=item3a7018a671
Plenty of (UK) places stock the 3.9 or even 4mm bullets, and as you might guess..they don't mate too well with your elderly jap loom. Mick's suggestion spot on if not needing OEM.
Gotta say, I bit the bullet (ha!) and spent £30 on 'the business' crimping ratchet tool - worth every penny & a sheer joy to use: such a buzz to get beautifull crimped OEM type connections, versus (my soldering) which often melts the cables & ends up looking very DIY. (One problem of soldering is it tends to harden the wire, making it more susceptible to failing from vibration. Furthermore, any overheats (poor connections) can melt the solder & cause the connection to fail - tho' unlikely I guess in our 'bikes)
If you want to 'see' said crimping tool its in my previous posting's wire catalogue link, in the tooling section, or here ...
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/746/category/87
Enjoy!
Cheers, Lobo
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Dunno how spec you want to be; but (eg) my '72 K2 & '77 400F both use 3.5mm bullet connectors. These are bloody hard to get, I've only ever managed to source them from the 'states. eg
http://www.ebay.com/itm/5-Male-Bullet-Barrel-Terminal-3-5mm-20-18AWG-Insulated-MB352018IN-/250988766833?pt=Car_Audio_Video&vxp=mtr&hash=item3a7018a671
Plenty of (UK) places stock the 3.9 or even 4mm bullets, and as you might guess..they don't mate too well with your elderly jap loom. Mick's suggestion spot on if not needing OEM.
Gotta say, I bit the bullet (ha!) and spent £30 on 'the business' crimping ratchet tool - worth every penny & a sheer joy to use: such a buzz to get beautifull crimped OEM type connections, versus (my soldering) which often melts the cables & ends up looking very DIY. (One problem of soldering is it tends to harden the wire, making it more susceptible to failing from vibration. Furthermore, any overheats (poor connections) can melt the solder & cause the connection to fail - tho' unlikely I guess in our 'bikes)
If you want to 'see' said crimping tool its in my previous posting's wire catalogue link, in the tooling section, or here ...
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/746/category/87
Enjoy!
Cheers, Lobo
Hey Lobo, being a cheapskate I went for the £9 crimper from VWP , seems to do the job oki doki. Looks like I'm heading for replacing everything with 3.9mm bullets , not arse aboout OEM really ... half the loom looks as if its off a 550 anyway it's got a wee diode in the nutral switch circuit (see diagram). The wore from the diode terminates in the headlight shell.. damned if I know wht it joined onto. ( i I labe all the wire end when I took it to bits, well err no actshully . The bike also has a 550 front end .. bit of a mongrel really.
Anyone know who sells the best quality 3.9mm bullets .. ?
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Hi,
If its anything like the 400/4 , one of the wires goes to the clutch lever switch, the circuit makes sure you cannot start the motor in gear without pulling in the clutch-----Ken
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Hi,
If its anything like the 400/4 , one of the wires goes to the clutch lever switch, the circuit makes sure you cannot start the motor in gear without pulling in the clutch-----Ken
ha, that could be it .... reduntant wire from 550/4 loom as the 500 doesnt care whether the clutch is in or out ... as far as I remember ! In fact that must be it Ken.. looking at the 550 circuit diagram in the clymer manual ... the wire for the clutch switch is green and red like the one that comes from the diode to the headlamp shell in my handrawn diagram ... funny thing is the circuit diagram doesnt show a diode. Picture of the diode attached.
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ha , found in in the haynes manual circuit diagram for the 550F... its not a diode , its a silicon rectifier and is indeed to do with the clutch switch. Jut looked at my 500K1 , there is no green / red wire in the LHS handlebar controls sub loom ... so I'll just ignore the green/red wire that terminates in the headlamp heel and would have been intente to link to the clutch switch in the 550F ;) .... this forum is great.
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Hi Ewan,
Head in the sand is often the least aggro when dealing with non-standard wiring, just thrown my yoshi wiring away and got a load of 2mm and1mm wiring and a big fistful of connectors--ha-ha-- at least I have got some professional crimp tools from my working days-----Ken
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Hi Ewan,
Head in the sand is often the least aggro when dealing with non-standard wiring, just thrown my yoshi wiring away and got a load of 2mm and1mm wiring and a big fistful of connectors--ha-ha-- at least I have got some professional crimp tools from my working days-----Ken
where'd you go for your connectors Ken .. got some from VWP but they look a bit lightweight
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photo of the family bike, more of a rattle box than the 500 ! More electrics .. its headlamps and indicators have gone AWOL
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Hi again Ewan,
Bullets avail here (Japanese 3.9mm) as one possible source. (Tho' you've likely found it already)
Cheers.
http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product_list/6
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Hi Ewan
I bought mine from http://www.sgmotorsport.co.uk/
That does not mean they are the best available, I think most of bullet crimps on the mrket are much of a sameness, the main choice is brass or tin plated, and I think the latter may resist corrosion a bit better----Ken
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hmm, I have some from ages ago that are brass coloured and bought off ebay .. then I have some silver coloured ones from VWP and I thought were more rubbishy looking .... but must be the better tin plated ones. (must have been the "almost gold" connotations of the ebay ones that threw me . So .. price comparison between tin plated bullets fromVehicle Wiring Procucts, Auto Electrical Supplies and SG Motorsports
SGM : 40 males / females & sleeves = £15.47 + VAT
VWP : 50 males/females & sleeves = £6.94 + VAT
AES: 50 males/females & sleeves = £11.36 + VAT
Are they identical product at different prices or do I go for the more is more philospohy and order from SGM
links:
SGM: http://www.sgmotorsport.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=9
VWP: http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/terminalsnonins/noninsbullets.php
AES: http://www.autoelectricsupplies.co.uk/product/32/category/6
hmmm
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more hmm., the three os them sell an identical crimping tool. Prices are:
VWP : £8.95 (£15.48 inc VAT & delivery)
AES: £11.66 (£18.49 inc VAT & delivery)
SGM: £13.97 (£17.57 inc VAT & delivery.. although looks like they've undercalculated teh VAT ,a s the otyher two add 20% VAT onto the delivery charge
off to VWP for more bullets then !
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breaking news , SG motosports willing to match VWP price on bullets :)
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8) I need to get all this together for a winter project.
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i suppose the best thing to do is put all the earth circuit on and then add each sub circuit one at a time testing as you go along (maybe) ???
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Sounds like a plan. I'm going to start with the circuit that uses the most same coloured wire, the just work down to the least used. My simple thinking.
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couple of handy links in here Lester: the colorada one gives the basics of construction and tool ude, the John Partridge one is a ful on comprehsive piece on vehicle electrics.
http://www.triumphrat.net/twins-technical-talk/229345-idiots-guide-to-making-your-own-motorcycle-wiring-harness.html
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Hi,
Maybe I should ask for commission ;D
breaking news , SG motosports willing to match VWP price on bullets
On with the subject, when I am wiring up I tend to use as simple a system as possible and wire circuit by circuit, and I start by drawing each circuit and compare it with the main diagram, start with say alternator to rectifier, then field coil to regulator, thats the generation side done, then work through the others, doing the main earth early also helps-----Ken
[/quote]
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Hi,
Maybe I should ask for commission ;D
breaking news , SG motosports willing to match VWP price on bullets
On with the subject, when I am wiring up I tend to use as simple a system as possible and wire circuit by circuit, and I start by drawing each circuit and compare it with the main diagram, start with say alternator to rectifier, then field coil to regulator, thats the generation side done, then work through the others, doing the main earth early also helps-----Ken
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Thanks Ken .. think my plan was to start with the earth wiring , never done this before, but surely cant be worse than respoking a wheel ;) ... went on a diversionary tactict today and went and got some new avon rubber for my new shiny rims.. got home and noticed that the front is on the wrong way rouund
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Hi Ewan
Snap with the wheels three weeks ago, only mine was the rear roadrider tyre, irritating when you are on your hands and knees fitting the axle pin to see an arrow 6 inches from your eyes pointing the wrong way-ooops.
As to my wiring ideas, I started doing individual circuit drawings because of the miniature ones in manuals, it is easier to know the exact circuit before you wire it!-----------------------------Ken
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splashed out £15 for a decent diagram from Kojacat (Laminated A3 ).... doesnt quite match my bastardised 500/550 old loom , but should be handy enough and deffo loads better than clymer / haynes / honda worksop manual versions.
http://kojaycat.co.uk/epages/950000457.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/950000457/Categories/Motorcycle_Wiring_Diagrams
There's also this one, that maybe you've seen . You click on the wee table at the bottom and it switches different subcircuits on and off;
http://oldmanhonda.com/MC/wiring500.html . Still think the Kajacat one is the best though.
Just need to see how many more diversionary tactics I can think off before I actualy start on the loom . Wire, sleeving, block connectors and battery arrived yesterday.
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Started building the new wiring loom and relocatiing the electrics today ... going do okay so far...fingers crossed (will put some photos on my build thread soon) ... just two issues:
a) I've ordered the wrong block connectors ..anyone know of a supplier of 6mm blade hitachi connectors that are direct replacement for the OEM ones. Dont really want to have to replace all the ones on the end of the components , just the loom side. I've tried all of Vehicle Wiring Products, SG Motorssport, Kojaycat and Auto - electric supplies, but none have the correct ones
b) There's several places in the wiring where 3 or 4 wires all need connecting togeather at the same point. Eg indicator switch, front indicator, winker idiot light, rear indicator feed all connect via one of these connectors in the headlamp shell. On the original there are 4 point female bullet sockets .. ie allows four wires to be connected to one other wire at the same point , again anyone know of suppliers for these, cant find then anywhere either
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There is no know supplier of direct replacement block connectors mate, there is a firm in the US that does the 4 way connectors but I am on holiday with limited internet till the 18th so I cant link you to it till them sorry
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Found it!!
Go to www.vintageconnections.com looks like they now do some block connectors as well!!
If you make up an order let me know and I will add to it and share the postage as that can be a killer mate
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Found it!!
Go to www.vintageconnections.com looks like they now do some block connectors as well!!
If you make up an order let me know and I will add to it and share the postage as that can be a killer mate
Cheers for that one Bryan> had a gander and the 3 / 4 way female bullet connector slook good... they even have the 3.5mm bullets that fit the 500 as stock ... but been in the shd all ay converting it to 3.9mm bullets ??? The block connectors look like a different pattern though, so wouldnt let me keep the stock conectors on the sublooms. But there must be someone on the planet with them , coz I presume that the Dave Silver harness and ignition swith must use the original connector types. Anywat I'd stil be interested in some of those three / 4 way bullet connectors . Say :
25 TS1 4mm Triple-Socket Terminal: 4mm (0.157") Tinned Brass 4mmTriple Socket Terminal + Insulator = $12.50 (50 cents each)
whta do you reckon , how do you wnt to sort it out ? ... worth seeing if anyone else need these or 3.5mm bits ?
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Can you hold off till the 19th mate, i'm in deepest Norfolk, if I walk out the door me feet get wet and I aint on the broads! means the dongle reception is intermittent (being polite!!) but pm me a phone number and I will ring you after 8pm when I am driving at work
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no worries , will PM you. No hurry now as I've got past the part of the loom that uses those bullet connectors. I'll just retrofit them when they land. Will PM you my numba .Is it raining 8)
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Just enough to stop me hearing the waves on the beach mate, about 10 miles south of cromer