Electronic ignition

[oldboy]

Oldboy is  bound to be really confused now, i believe he is going to buy some fishing tackle , take the bike to the nearest lake throw it in, cast a line and hopes it will be hooked and come out sorted.   Your not far wrong, never seen a thread go off at such a tangent!!

[oldboy]

So I take it that's a "yes" then. Thank you all for your comments but please stop the replies as I am now totally confused and thinking of fitting a diesel engine in my 500. All I wanted is a reliable spark now and again and ended up with an O.U. coarse in electronics!!   P.S. If Oddjob is still getting prices for bulk buying the Hondaman system please put me down for one.

[Johnwebley]

Oldboy is  bound to be really confused now, i believe he is going to buy some fishing tackle , take the bike to the nearest lake throw it in, cast a line and hopes it will be hooked and come out sorted.   Your not far wrong, never seen a thread go off at such a tangent!!

Come on,it should ignite some interesting information, even a spark of an idea


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[AshimotoK0]

I won't comment again. When I have done my own system I will post it in Anoraks corner.

[Johnwebley]

I won't comment again. When I have done my own system I will post it in Anoraks corner.

Ash,

Thank you for your input and knowledge,

We look forward to your finished unit

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[K2-K6]

So I take it that's a "yes" then. Thank you all for your comments but please stop the replies as I am now totally confused and thinking of fitting a diesel engine in my 500. All I wanted is a reliable spark now and again and ended up with an O.U. coarse in electronics!!   P.S. If Oddjob is still getting prices for bulk buying the Hondaman system please put me down for one.

 Certainly the forum is comfortable in thread drift (or whatever you call it) and very often will turn up detail that's not immediately apparent, I don't see anything wrong with that but for those not interested it's fine to read the bits that are pertinent.

To directly answer the OP question;- Honda, through their r+d and design philosophy put in place all the elements to create a very good combustion design (tolerances, camshaft timing,  combustion shape, acurate carburation etc) that make exceedingly low demands on ignition.
However, they put onto these for cylinder engines, ignition design concept that is virtually perfect, lacking for nothing in performance to run them without any concern whatsoever.  It will work without issue.
Currently,  and one of the biggest impact,  is to scource reliable and original matching points + condensers to make them work as designed. That aspect may influence your current path.

The supplimentary systems that add electronic (solid state components) to the system and take over switching load are the first real choice to allow even substitute points etc to work effectively and will provide longevity to original specification systems by doing the donkey work of load switching.  They don't fundamentally change the whole system performance compared to a properly set original component set. In other words it's still going to combust the same with most claims of more power etc being spurious. As long as you know what you are buying them for, then they are fine.

Additional to that is probably the most advanced, Boyer Bransden system  that takes full control of triggering, advance+retard etc to completely remove the mechanical aspect of original system. Highly regarded over many years, low failure rate and additional control features if that interests the owner, a very competent alternative.

So the answer to original question is NO you don't "need" anything over and above original as it's a highly competent and effective design.

But you have a choice as above.

[oldboy]

Please don't take offence Ash, as I've just got the hang of a 13A plug so your reply was way and above my skill set, but I do appreciate the time and effort you put into it. I'm sure there is somebody out there that understands what you were saying!! Also thanks to K2 for your comments, I will go with the Hondaman system should Oddjob import a load. But as you said, there have been std points fitted since I've had the bike without problems but the Hondaman system seems a good way of "preserving" or improving that system at reasonable cost. Many thank to you all for your comments.       

[deltarider]

First I'd like to stress that the stock ignition system all Honda CB SOHC Fours came equipped with, were adequate. I suppose we all have read the roadtests back then and if not, they are - thanks to internet -  still available. All models performed excellent: they were good starters and revved happily towards red zone. I like to recall this, because now and then we read comments like, this or that has always been a weak point or such and so was badly designed by Honda. Such comments may give the poster an aura of an expert, but, apart from what is said, is hard to check, these comments in general aren't much help and can lead to confusion.
In my archives I have several socalled riders' reports in which, I don't know how many owners of CB500/550s have shared their long time experience (in distance over 40 times around the globe). I find it telling that criticism on the charging system is totally absent in all of them, both tests as well as reports, and the same goes for the ignition system with the exception of the sparkplugcaps.
You can choose for an EI for good reasons however. Some want more reserve where it concerns spark energy, some want to get rid of maintenance like adjusting points and some want to have both. But to suggest that there always has been a problem which needed to be resolved, has no roots in reality.
For now I'd like to comment on what Ash wrote in reply #104.

[...] the 'transistor switch' type ignition like the Velleman kit switches from the points so the transistor switches for the same time as the conventional system and with it's 0.2uF capacitor storing the energy from the coil I would imagine the performance to be the same as the points type ignition. [...]

For a good understanding: in a system like mine and Hondaman's, the mechanical points switch only the modest control current and the power transistor switches the full current to the coil. The characteristics of that switching differ significantly however. Where the breakerpoints switch 'gradually' and so, in a conventional systen, in spite of the capacitor, energy will be lost, the transistor switches in practically no time. Then it's all or nothing. This characteristic, that implies no losses, helps to build extra reserve of energy. This can be noticed near idling and in revving towards red zone, not so much mid range. Realise that the OEM ignition is a compromise and its components, in particular the capacitor, are selected thus, that it performs best at where it's operated most: midrange. You cannot say the ultra fast cutting of the transistor equals the relatively 'slow' switching of the breakerpoint. Before I made my choice, I had studied Steinbuch's De Automobiel vol.8 and a tutorial for mechanics by Bosch on this. Both sources have convinced me that even a simple transistor ignition like mine, can be a useful mod, because it improves the quality of switching, resulting in a shorter rise time. What does not change, using breakerpoints in combination with a transistor ignition like mine, is the dwell time ofcourse. Operated by a cam, mechanical breakers gradually open and then need the same cam and time (!) to close again. But - other than popular believe - we are not short of dwell time. Not at all! Even at 10.000 rpm there is 6 ms available for a cycle of charge and discharge, which is plen-ty. How? Well, simple. Realise that each of both ignitions our bikes have, only has to fire two cylinders simultaneously and not six one after the other...
All in all, where it concerns spark energy reserve, the benefit of a full EI over my module is nihil, as my coils, even with the standard dwell, will become fully saturated @ even 10.000 rpm.
Bear in mind that a full saturation - which a standard system will not achieve at 10.000 rpm, is not needed. Coils are selected thus by Honda that even partially saturated, they perform adequately.
More on this in my next post, where I will present data on a standard CB350F/400F ignition and the deductions, made by a member of the German forum.

[Johnwebley]

As I mentioned previously,

I found this thread fascinating,

So much so,I invested some cash to try and learn more,

Thanks all

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[Oddjob]

My head hurts

[Sesman]

I’ve just seen a squirrel…..

Seriously though. I transistorised switch has got to be a better solution to achieve a superior Ldi/dt HT performance and reducing stored energy across the points Cdv/dt?

I’m betting that if CDI or and EI was available to Mr Honda back in the 70s he would have used it in preference to a mechanical system.

Just wondering….

[SteveD CB500K0]

My squirrel-ometer just went into the red.


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[oldboy]

Makes two of us Oddjob!!

[royhall]

Well I understood every word. Not.

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[Johnwebley]

As I mentioned previously,

I found this thread fascinating,

So much so,I invested some cash to try and learn more,

Thanks all

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   Okay,

  this elektrickery is complicated.

  I have spent several hours reading the book,
  its not easy,

 I have found pretty coloured resistors

  Polarized,and non polarized capacitors,

Diodes,regular ,zener,,Photo, Schottky,and light emitting !!

LED have anodes and cathodes,who knew ?

as for transistors,you can have either,or both,NPN and PNP type,just like alphabet spagetti !!

this is not to mention Inttegrated circuits .


  very interesting,,but I think for the amount  I would build,I shall ask,

  the knowledge is so detailed ,so various,  I shall leave to the experts .