1969 CL450 US Barn Find Restoration

[MrDavo]

Thanks for that, I may have found a source for replica 80mm tank badges complete with '450' underneath, but the guy is away until December 8, we have exchanged emails.

The bodywork looks lovely - did Menno restore the side panel badges?, I  thought they were stickers until I looked at mine (which are quite faded) closely. The silver would be the tricky part I guess, it looks like a chrome finish.

Here's a link to a nice picture of a finished one in blue:

http://www.livablelandscape.org/CYCLES/450CLadds.htm

Menno, if you're reading this, don't throw the candy blue paint away, you're going to need some more, once I get my CB750 stuff back.

I may have to try and polish the nasty scratch out of my stator cover, though I fear its as deep as the lettering. Some chancer in the US seems to have bought them all up so he can bang them out polished at $300 a pop, the only other early style ones for sale are FUBAR, or at least as badly scratched as mine  If anyone has one (the early CB450 and bomber are the same) let me know.

[MrDavo]

Remember I said:

My guess is shagged gear selectors may have stopped the bike, they are known for it, and it's engine out and cases split to fix it - when he failed at the first hurdle in getting the motor out, he just gave up and got another toy.

I found out for sure what caused the bike to be retired so early on when I dropped the oil.



At first I thought it was the 4x8mm dowel that holds the selector cage to the drum, but as it measures at 4x8.4mm, and is dull with a small rough patch at one end I now think its one of the selector fork pins, broken at the groove for the circlip. I may yet sieve the oil to look for the rest, it depends what I find when I get the cases split.

It explains why the fault persisted despite the fact that the clutch cover has been off (all allen screws, replacing the originals he will have inevitably butchered), you can get at the selector mechanism to repair it, but not the forks and drum, you need to split the cases for that, and as we've seen, he failed at the first head steady nut.

I spent a lot of yesterday cleaning mud and grit out of the area aroung the drive sprocket, and oily crud off the area around the starter motor. I decided I might as well get things clean before the cases were split.

The screws on the alternator  cover and neutral switch were untouched and very tight, luckily I have an impact driver, unlike Bubbah.

I think I may have to join the Hondatwins forum, as someone there is asking about original case finishes on the CL450. As mine seems to be such a timewarp, I think I can help.





Also I filled the combustion chambers with petrol, and watched it leak out of the rhs exhaust valve, my guess is that as this was the side with rusty rings (now freed and polished) that this valve was left open for years and has a rusty seat. Theres a mullahed crosshead still between me and geting a cam holder off though.

The starter was fine inside, little wear to the brushes, I just cleaned the commutator and put it back together.

Last thing before I packed up I got the clutch cover off. I'm bemused by instructions to get the filter out by removing the 6mm bolt and screwing in an 8mm one, as (a) hows that going to work in the same hole? and (b) there was no bolt there at all. Can anyone shed light as my filter doesn't want to come out (I have removed the big circlip).

[AshimotoK0]

I wouldn't expect the kind of response on HondaTwins that you get on here Dave .. or maybe it's just  me asking the wrong  questions.

Check the oil pump body..if it's steel with an alloy plunger piston then consider changing it to the later alloy body/steel plunger one from a later model. It's well documented that the flow from the early pump was insufficient and there is a tendency for the exhaust cam lobe/rocker/journal (final one in the oil delivery chain) to wear prematurely. Obviously, if you are only intending on doing a low mileage on it  then probably no need though. Roy Halliwell and myself bought the later alloy body one off eBay (the 500T pump also fits)

[hairygit]

The cover of the filter has an internal M8 thread tapped into it, and the M8 bolt acts as a puller, the same way as getting the alternator rotor off of a Honda four engine (although the four alternator thread is much bigger)

Sent from my X6pro using Tapatalk

[UK Pete]

Great project Mrdavo, as i am reading through yours and others posts its giving me the much needed enthusiasm to get back on with mine
pete

[K2-K6]

For the knackered crosshead,  you can with a wide pin punch,  peen the damaged metal back into shape.

After that you can then tap a impact driver bit into the reshaped head and it'll usually give you enough bite to then use the impact driver on it,  but tap it to do up first,  then reverse it as it should release it.

[MrDavo]

Pete, if following this rebuild rekindles your enthusiasm for restoring your bikes, that is worth the trouble of making these posts on its own. 

That crosshead was a mean little SOB, with a tiny mangled cross on an unusual flat headed screw, I'm not sure if that's because it goes behind the points plate, anyhow my ancient (and probably non JIS) impact driver came to the rescue yet again - K2-K6 I usually do tighten them first, but by accident as it seems to jump into clockwise mode when I'm not paying attention.



Ive got both cams out and all the cam followers out now, virtually zero wear anywhere. I didn't get the valves out last night though, as I couldn't see how to shift the torsion bars. Only on reading some old threads did I find out about the knock pins behind the torsion bar keeper bolts, they aren't mentioned in the manual. If I can get the torsion bar ends away from the heads enough to clear the knock pins, apparently I can turn them with a 14mm spanner, releasing the collets. And there was me wondering how the hell I was going to get my valve sring compressor in there, and what to do with it if I did.

I managed to get the spinner out of the oil filter by using a 6mm screw as an extractor, I thought I needed a special tool to get the special filter body nut off until I noticed on the ads on eBay it looked suspiciously like my CB750 clutch centre nut tool - result! Unlike the CB750, because of the restricted space, a hammer and screwdriver is not an option. It was all clean in there, I'm guessing it was cleaned when the clutch came off to try and fix the gearchange fault, and when that didn't work out the bike was never used again.

Ash, you're right about the oil pump, it has a steel body, thanks for the info - I knew from t'internet that oil supply was a problem, often evidenced by early yellowing of the laquer on the exhaust cam end covers caused by heat - mine had gone yellow anyway, but with age. I can see a couple of later pumps for sale from a breaker in the US (like DK, but using blue Terry Towels instead of chequer plate for the photos),  However I'm not ordering until I know whether or not I also need some of the gearbox parts he has, due to the horrendous postage charges. As for the twins forum, yes there has been a distinct tumbleweed vibe since I posted on there a few days ago - nothing!

The NOS headlamp shell arrived, all the way from Oz, although being red it has the same Honda logo and 'HM16' cast on it, plus the hole for the neutral light.

I have ordered a new early CL450 seat from Texavina in Vietnam, when I queried why it was $40 more than a similar seat listed I got a reply that it was because of the stainless trim strip around the base, plus a $20 refund!

[UK Pete]

Sounds like your getting stuck in, what is the benefit of tightening first on stubborn screws and bolts, i usually give them a swift tao with hammer first before undoing

[K2-K6]

As you do Pete,  I'd tap them first and then use a good fit bit to get them to move.

I'd usually rotate clockwise if they've been knackered by someone trying to undo them first,  very often the "doing up " drive faces are still intact so you can get any corrosion to release going that way abit with good drive.

[MrDavo]

Postimage isn't letting me upload at the moment (after I recommended it in an thread about uploading pictures) so pics later, however there have been developments....

I split the cases last night, and was pleased but puzzled to find everything in the transmission in apple pie order, including all the hard to get bits like the stoppers with the wheels on rivets and the selctors, nothing to replace at all. Which begged the question - where the */-+ did that 8x4mm pin in the sump come from?

I had a look through the parts book online, and that pin is used twice in the 450 engine, as well as in the CB750 F2 oil pump somewhere. It connects the selector drum to the assembly with the plates and pins, as all that works it must still be there, though you'd have to pull it all apart to see it. The other I found out was to stake the camchain idler wheel spindle into the cases, 22 in the diagram below:



When I found this out at midnight, I went back into the garage to check if it was AWOL from where it should be, I wondered if I'd dislodged it as I took the barrels off, causing it to fall in the sump. What did floor me, considering I was so sure that noone had been in there before me, was that the spindle it knocks into, 9 in the diagram, was in there the wrong way round, so the pin couldn't have been doing its job of locating the spindle, as the locating hole was at the wrong end to the groove in the crankcase where the pin locates. It had once been in the right place once, as you can see witness marks on the barrel skirt and flange, but couldn't have got from there into the sump. It was either dropped in and lost, put in the right hole at the other end where it would have been able to work loose and fall into the sump, or in the right place but not located in the spindle hole - however to be damaged at all it must have been in the sump already, not fallen in when I took the barrels off.

 All very strange, I know for a fact that I hadn't had the spindle out and put it back the wrong way round. The chain roller ( was tired and worn, they get hard and fragile - I think bits of it are in the sump, I've ordered a new Japanese pattern one from DS.

I had wondered why there was damage to the crosshead screw that holds the little oval spindle cover over the top camchain roller at the very top of the head (18), I'm guessing someone was investigating a noisy camchain.

The knockpin has a little burr and enough slight damage to stop it going back into the spindle. It could have been far worse if it had had a trip around the gearbox! Finding it to be made of unobtanium I was resigned to filing it to fit, then I googled the part number and found a dealer in Alabama with a couple. Usual deal with the USA, carriage was twice the part cost, but a bit of horse trading via ebay messaging and we reached an agreement.

I've ordered all the seals and a gasket set, on the grounds that if it ain't broke don't fix it, I'll start putting it together again when I have all the bits. 

[MrDavo]

Roy and Ashley, sorry to mess you about, but can you both have a look for a plastic speedo for me? I'm looking again for one to match the tacho on page 1 of this thread.

The later style rev counter came today from the USA, and I was disappointed with it, they must take the photos in a certain light so they don't look so faded. I should've paid more attention to the orange needle tip, which didn't look so great. At least I'll have a matching later pair to sell, the speedo is virtually NOS, which is why I was going to use it. I'd already ordered the late tacho when you both offered to have a look for a plastic speedo to match my original plastic rev counter, which isn't faded.

There are stick on guage faces available, but as a pvc sticker, not like the sort of thing that Marcel does for the 750, if it matched the speedo properly and din't look crap I'd be amazed.

Ashley, the CB350 one wouldn't be a problem ratio wise, apparently they are all 2240:60 mph, they tweak for wheel size at the speedo drive end. The plastic face measures across at 75mm, see if the 350 ones are the same, if you want a photo of underneath to see if the mountings are the same, here's a pair on a familiar chequer plate, I must have learned something today, as on these the orange tip has faded right off, so I won't be bidding.



The main criteria is an unfaded face, low mileage would be a bonus, I don't know how hard they are to get apart and reset though.

If you dig up anything suitable, pm me with how much you want plus p&p I can sort it via paypal.

This weekend I shall be mostly washing my lower crankcase half in petrol to remove the crud inside and out. There is a box of bits on its way via Fedex from Mr Silver, who can book his Christmas holidays now.

[AshimotoK0]

Sorry Dave just picked this up  plus the new posts  don't show on main board.

Here  is  all I have but CB/CL350 plastic has lower speed graduations

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[AshimotoK0]

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[MrDavo]

The 350 speedo goes up to 110mph, as the CL450 was road tested at 105mph that will be fine, Ash. Low mileage fits in with what I found in the engine too. I reckon they only gave the CL450 a 130mph speedo to impress the 'how fast will it go mister?' brigade, imagine holding on to those high bars at 130mph!  I'll send you a pm, thanks for looking.

This is the exhaust valve seat from the side that had the rusty rings, it obviously wasn't turned over at all for a decade or two. I was pleased to find it cleaned up Ok using coarse grinding paste, I thought it may have to be recut with a special Honda cutter like what Graham has got. The rest of the valves and seats were pristine, obviously left closed. I'll finish them all with fine paste and decoke the chamber when I get as far up as the head on the rebuild.



This is the camwheel that needed replacing, as it had gone rock hard it would have continued to fall apart, worth the strip down for this alone. You can also see the slightly damaged pin that was in the sump, and the hole it should have been in but wasn't. A pair of new pins on their way from USA, then I'll have the only new spare one.



Contents of the crankcases all safely contained in the box Ashley sent me a CB750 crank in, I hope those rollers go back in their cages Ok, I didn't expect them to make a bid for freedom like that.



The cases were well protected by a layer of oily gunge which I washed off with the stale petrol from the tank, Also inside where I was surprised how much black sludge there was to clean out. I then applied paint stripper to the laquered top surfaces, got that off then with a brush applied a thick baking soda solution and left it for a while before rinsing everything off. See, I'm learning from the best.



I then applied Simonize VHT silver engine block paint (which I'd left in hot water for a while, shaking from time to time), a bit too blingy for me but a vast improvement, it will look good with the polished outer cases when I've finished with them on the wheel, I made a start with them as well. Question, if I use spray on Simoniz clear laquer over the polished bits, will it likely go yellow with heat, do I need to find a heat resistant version, or just not bother, like I didn't with the CB750?

[Johnwebley]

this is a brilliant thread,

 keep up the good work !!