My New Project arrives after a 44 year wait!

[AshimotoK0]

That torque does seem high Dave but I checked the Honda Shop manuals for both the 400 and the CB250K4 and they both give a high figure. One for
Bryan or Trigger I guess. I think the move now is towards fitting the original ball races by most restorers. Like you say..how can they get it so wrong ?

[Laverda Dave]

Dave,

When you say one of the lock plungers is broken, do you mean the little spring loaded gates?
If so, you could post me the broken gate and I'll see if I have a matching one.

Thanks for the heads-up Deano; I've just contacted Steve at 400bits. I'll buy this one and get it powder coated before fitting it.

Yes, it's the spring loaded gate, it was number 3. However, when I went back to the locksmith to collect my new key he had all the bits of the lock in a bundle so my guess is they are all mixed up and I had to play around with them before I could get the key to work with four of the gates fitted. The locksmith had the finesse of a gorilla because I found he managed to break the gate in half (the bit left was in the bundle of bits). I have attached the photo of the piece I have left.  I don’t know if you can match to this? I can only see what looks like a ‘T’ stamped on the gate. I attach a photo of the lock when I first took it apart and laid everything out in order. I am not a locksmith but when you adjust the gate to suit the key is it a case of filing the ‘tang’ part of the gate that sits over the tiny spring or is it a case of filing the centre opening of the gate to suit?

Thanks for confirming the torque setting Ash. As you say, how can these suppliers get something that ultimately relates to the safe operation of the steering so wrong and leaving the motorcycle in a potentially dangerous condition, unbelievable!

[Nurse Julie]

Blimey Dave, Ratty is definitely testing your patience. Onwards and upwards.

[Deano400]

Hi Dave,
Gorilla is an understatement looking at pic 1. If you can identify which gate it is in pic 2 I'll see if I've got a matching gate. It's the difference between the top and bottom edge of the gate and the cut out. The spring mounting points should all be the same.

[Laverdaroo]

Just sent you a PM Dave


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[AndyD]

Feel for you Dave - these things definitely try us!

Have huge sympathy regards the steering head bearings - I've spent far too long messing around with what should be simple replacement and like yourself can't understand how suppliers can simply keep sending out stuff that just isn't right.

I spent yesterday and today replacing the head bearings on the CJ250t as I wasn't happy with the previous tapered roller ones I fitted - they only gave a couple of full turns on the adjuster nut which just felt wrong. I ordered another supposedly correct top bearing which turned out to again be too deep so have now fitted the DSS non-genuine ball bearing version on the top which finally seems to be an exact match to the originals and gives a full 4 turns of the adjuster by hand which feels much better.

My experience has been that the lower bearing in the various replacements are OK but all the top ones sit higher and reduce the available thread for the adjuster.
However even with the 'wrong' bearings on the top the thread for the chrome top nut was still quite generous so I'm wondering what is different on yours / the 400 maybe and that does sound worrying as I guess the main strength of the stem connection is on this nut, especially with the high torque settings mentioned.

Hope you get it sorted.
Cheers,
Andy

[Johnny4428]

Think you will be due a bit better fortune after that saga Dave, nice job on the indicator stem earth!😜

[K2-K6]

It appears odd to me that the torque instructions are so high (the 750 manual states 58~85 ft/lb) and what it achieves.

Thats a very high figure for such component in either case.

Does the 400 have a pinch bolt on that central top mount too ?

Obviously you don't want the steering moving when in use (twisting around the joint) but much more in clamping etc is from the stanchion clamps top and bottom etc.

Most example of 60 ft/lb range have far more substantial threads and reason to apply such a torque level, rear axle etc.

"Original" taper bearing sets sold by Dresda had one of the bearings modified to allow the correction in height for this scenario.  As I understand it, you can't (or couldn't, still looks the same) buy replacement in taper to match the dimensions of original "slim" fit ball race sets. Maybe DD would remember what he had changed (his sets that he had modified) to accommodate this particular dimension. 

The std sets are OK, but taper roller really does fit this scenario best for load and durability, so quite desirable if sized correctly. Perhaps more relevant to a higher mileage use as when they were contemporary.

Either type, I'm using  black CV molly grease in currently, virtually impervious to water ingress, ideal for high loading and lower angular movement, both types just last longer and much less likely to not damage their track from loading.

This area of setup height is called "stack" dimension in MTB cycle field, with many applications giving consideration to how this is managed in fitment.  Likely a modified top bearing is needed here to accommodate switching to taper roller over ball race.

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

Pyramid do a steering taper roller bearing  kit BR 29 for the 400.

In the kit the top bearing is the same size as the original ball bearing part 48.5 x 26 x 15 mm (height).

The bottom  bearing is 50 x 30 x 14mm (height) that is 4 mm less than the standard ball bearing at 18 mm
The kit includes 2 x sealing washers.

No issues when using this kit of a shortage of top threads, I think I fitted a 2 mm bottom spacer at the bottom of the column.

I fitted the kit they sell  for the 500 - no issues - same kit iirc BR29 - quality bearings in the kit.

[K2-K6]

Useful information Ted, as I've said above, they are my preferred design for the load they take.

It is a bit of a pedantic view from me though, just hate "rattling" head stock bearings  and know if you are chasing them by adjustment it's honestly over for a ball set, especially the lower one. Ordinarily the balls or track are failing if you're chasing it by tightening.

Decent rollers and lubrication never really do that.

[Laverda Dave]

You have raised some interesting points Nigel.

There is no pinch bolt on the top collar although there are two pinch bolts on the top yoke to camp on the fork tubes. Ash checked the torque figure and it is correct but I really fail to understand why it is so high and has such a wide range of between 57-86Ibs? The castellated nut fitted below the top yoke is what preloads the bearings but that doesn’t have a torque figure and instead relies on ‘feel’ to secure the bearings to make sure they don’t bind and to eliminate undue free play.  From what I can see the yoke centre nut (centre steering nut) is there to hold the top yoke firmly in position, the two pinch bolts with an 8lb torque setting  actually hold the fork legs in position along with the two lower yoke bolts.

The stepped taper bearing as fitted by DD, I remember this kit back in the day, I also remember how expensive it was and there were much cheaper alternatives but of course the reason was because they didn’t have the stepped bearing!

This brings me on to another point, Ted; it was the Pyramid kit I purchased after reading the posts on the forum about fitting taper kits. The kit supplied by Pyramid was the BR29 kit and it didn’t fit!    I only got one turn on the centre nut when fully torqued home (and this I consider is what damaged the thread of the steering stem). In my view this was very dangerous.  I contacted Pyramid to advise them. They asked me to send photos and measurements of the fitted parts and this is what I did along with an explanation of how I fitted the kit.
The photos I sent to Pyramid are attached to this post. You can see how the top bearing race protruded 1.25mm from the steering head even drifted fully home. When the top bearing is fitted to the race it protruded by 6.5mm and this is what used up all the available thread for the centre nut. Nick Walker form Pyramid agreed with my findings and this is when he advised they would look at fitting a stepped bearing (as DD offered back in the day so the issue with fitting these kits was known about back then).
I offered to be a guinea pig to try the new stepped bearing arrangement Pyramid were proposing to use but I received a response back they were contracting the ‘restorers of these bikes’? Has anyone on the forum been contacted by Pyramid to try the new stepped bearing considering most of the people who restore these bikes are likely to be forum members?
I checked the Pyramid Parts site yesterday and they are still selling the BR29 kit with no mention of a stepped bearing being supplied with the kit itself being a generic fit across a range of Honda bikes! This issue doesn’t just appear to apply to the 400/4 other people with other bikes (Magpie, VFR, Andy D, CJ250 and others) are having problems with these kits, fact is the suppliers appear to be nothing more than box shifters, they don’t appear to be doing any research of their own when a problem has been identified by the people trying to fit these kits.

I contacted Steve at 400bits yesterday to order the steering stem he has in stock and I found out a bit more information. Steve mentioned the stem he has is 209mm in length but some stems he has sold are longer so I needed to check my stem prior to ordering. On checking I found my stem measures 219mm!
I checked the parts list and found there are two lower yokes listed for the UK model. Part number 53200-377-610B for bikes up to serial numbers 1066198 for the F and 1078879 for the F2. It then changed to Part Number 53200-377-611B from 1066199 for the F and 107880 for the F2. There is no description given for the change but I assume the earlier part number relates to the 219mm steering stem and the later to the 209mm steering stem as my bike frame number is 1074127 and is a 1977 F2. Despite the 219mm stem I have fact is the taper bearing kit didn’t fit and that why I had to install the hybrid arrangement of taper lower and caged bearing upper.

The upshot is my rebuild has stalled because I cannot locate another lower yoke, the one Steve has is too short. I contact someone else yesterday who is advertising a yoke on ebay but it doesn’t look in very good condition and I think it maybe a 350four item. He’s going to check it tomorrow, fingers crossed!

Anyway, I'm off out for a ride on my RE Interceptor whilst the sun sometimes shines

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

I bought the Pyramid kit as a member here I think it was "oldchuffer" fitted the kit without any thread issues on his 400, the same kit fitted my 500.

As the top bearing heights for the plain & the taper kit are the same it's annoying that you had issues - I did wonder if there were different shaped top washer/cups- then again others have had problems fitting taper roller kits to the 400.

Logic would sort of dictate that the taller column might be better - that said if the distance between the tube base and the threaded section is the same then the extra height would it not just raise the top fork bracket height?

As it happens my 400 is a mongrel arrangement with a taper roller in the bottom (not Pyramid part & taller than theirs) with a plain bearing in the top (with the plastic ball spacers) due to the height issue you had.

I did wonder if Pyramid  have changed the top bearing design so the bearing sits differently - was your experience recent Dave?

[Laverda Dave]

A bit more progress to report during the past week. I managed to obtain another lower steering stem from Steve at 400four bits. I collected it on Tuesday from the powder coater.

Yesterday I summoned up some enthusiasm and stripped down the front end to remove the damaged lower yoke. When I compared the new and the old side by side I noticed the ‘original’ lower yoke doesn’t have the steering lock cut out in the stem! The original yoke is also a lot thicker at the base.
I carefully removed the taper bearing, 3mm washer and dust seal and fitted these to the new yoke. Straight away I could see there wasn’t enough thread showing so I took it apart and left the 3mm washer off. Doing this caused the yoke to rub on the frame so I carefully machined the 3mm washer down to 1mm and it worked. I still only have two complete turns of the centre steering nut which still isn’t good imo and I will torque the nut up in stages from 30lb.

Today I will be refitting the front end and hopefully going forwards rather than backwards with this build!

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

That's odd - no hole for the steering lock Dave?
That said the only time I used my steering lock on my Honda 250 Dream  back in the 1960s when I returned to my bike it would not unlock. I had to go out and buy some Plus Gas as the key stuck solid. I've never used a bike steering lock since.

[K2-K6]

Progress at least Dave. I'd still be suspicious of that book specification  torque figure on limited threads though. Essentially the steering is directly linked through the base triple to stanchion, just how much location the maximum torque could apply, along with its effect (through friction in its faces) I'm not sure.
Have you considered making a new stem for hhe damaged one, turning the factory weld off the base, inserting and welding the new item in situ ?

You could make a longer one to accommodate the new bearings etc.