My New Project arrives after a 44 year wait!

[Laverda Dave]

Did you keep those carbs Ash or did you leave them to dissolve back into the ground!
Amazing to see how people allow personal possessions that cost a lot of money back in the day to sit and rot. I was always taught to save up for things I wanted and when I got them to look after them. This thinking especially applied to my coach trimming tools, they were my living and eventually the same applied to my drawing pens etc when I became a design engineer. I could never leave bits of engines out in the elements or sitting in sheds without some level of protection be it grease or in sealed containers.

[AshimotoK0]

Did you keep those carbs Ash or did you leave them to dissolve back into the ground!
Amazing to see how people allow personal possessions that cost a lot of money back in the day to sit and rot. I was always taught to save up for things I wanted and when I got them to look after them. This thinking especially applied to my coach trimming tools, they were my living and eventually the same applied to my drawing pens etc when I became a design engineer. I could never leave bits of engines out in the elements or sitting in sheds without some level of protection be it grease or in sealed containers.

I seem to remember they did actually yield some decent bits like brassware, piston slides  and some rubber parts etc . After all only 600 odd miles from what I could gather. Mick Taylor (kettle738) actually got the engine that the carbs were from, which the guy had kept inside of his house and from memory it was just covered in fluff and dust with no plugs in it. I think Mick sold it to a bloke in Lincolnshire. We found a receipt from the late 1970's from 'The House of Wheels' in London (was it Leyton?) and the guy had bought a lot of stuff off a crashed 400 they had. ... I found the kickstart off it that was pristine and fetched a fair few bob  and 'Varnish Blue' side panels, which are now on my own 400.

[Laverda Dave]

It's been a while since I posted an update on Ratty but now the Triton has been fixed following it's recent drop from the bike lift I have now moved back on trying to get Ratty finished and to sort out the abysmal running/non-starting issues.
When I left it back in August it flatly refused to start. I removed the carbs yet again and checked the float heights, No 3 was 20.5mm and I tweaked the level. Next up check the pilots, I found three were blocked yet again and I cannot understand why considering there is a new filter on the fuel tap and the tank is clean inside and I have used new fuel lines. I reassembled the carbs and checked them on the workbench. No 3 carb leaked as of course it would! Another drain of fuel followed by another adjustment and bench test, all was now well and I installed them and the air box back onto the bike taking particular care with the cables and all the various measurements as per the Haynes manual.
After an age trying to start it it eventually fired and promptly backfired and stopped. This scenario was repeated many times with lots of checks being made of the static ignition timing (I fitted a new Boyer unit), pilot circuits, plugs, caps and connections. Eventually it ran and was running on all four but it wouldn't rev past 1500rpm. The worst thing was the way it would just stop dead, no backfiring, no chugging or erratic running beforehand but it just stops dead. It always restarted straight away but would again stop dead from 1500rpm. I did eventually get it running for a couple of minutes before it stopped. I have given up (again) as I cannot figure out what is causing the problem. I cannot dynamically time the ignition as I can't get it to rev to 4500rpm in order to set it.
Does anyone have any ideas of what the issue may be?
I have a new Boyer, new non resister ND plugs, new resister plug caps, new leads , Ash overhauled the ignition coils, New wiring loom, the carbs have been apart three times, original brassware (cleaned with clock cleaning fluid followed by an ultrasonic bath) new gaskets and felts. There are no air leaks in the system.
I am at a loss as to why it just stops dead and refuses to rev.
To end a really crap afternoon I discovered the exhaust clamps are going rusty already and I haven't even been out on the bike yet! These were supposed to have been creakoted by the guy who did the powder coating .

[Sesman]

A couple of things.

Have you checked the valve clearance?  Tight clearances can create severe starting problems and also can stop the motor dead as it warms up.

Have you checked fuel flow. Eg allowed the fuel to flow down stream of the filter and measured the l/m?

I’m only mentioning this as you have checked the static timing (which is normally sufficiently accurate) and you have triple checked the carbs, presumably including the passageways downstream of the jets. Have you tried squirting a quality carb cleaner through these systematically. Eg blocking the common routes to ensure the passageways are blown through individually?

Oh and one last thing. I’m unclear on the bikes history, but have you checked the valve timing?

Hope this helps.

[K2-K6]

Something worth checking is how the static timing is set on the Boyer.

I helped another forum member a while back on a 400 snd both of us didn't understand/interpret the initial setup correctly.

Its odd because its effectively set at full advance static as its pulse cannot be "advanced" from a static position until the pulse arrives, if that makes sense . that's in comparison to a mechanical advance mech.

What this system does is set at full advance, then as it cranks initially it can see it's low rpm from internal pulse count. From that it retards the low speed ignition event, then works back towards it's fixed total advance in software to run at that level above a set point.

Thing is, I can't remember the wording on their instructions to say how we eventually viewed it to get correct starting setup.

Have you got a picture of Boyer instructions  Dave  ?

[Laverda Dave]

Thanks for the replies.

Sesman,
I will re-check the valve clearances tomorrow. The valve timing was spot on when I rebuilt the engine but if all else fails I will check it again.
I couldn't get any NGK plugs so used ND X22ES-U as advised, I might try and get the correct NGK's from HGB tomorrow and try these although the ND's are producing a fat spark.
The fuel is running fine to the carbs, I don't have an inline filter fitted I am using the Honda filter in the fuel tank. I did fit a new Honda filter gauze when I overhauled the fuel tap.
The carbs have been cleaned, cleaned and cleaned again every time in an ultrasonic bath with new fluid every time. All the internal jetways have been gone through with carb cleaner until evidence was they were clear (I used a whole can!).

Nigel,
Attached are the instructions that came with the Boyer kit, it is a micro digital kit (kit 089).
I followed the instructions to the letter and have checked it countless times but maybe I have misread them especially if you had trouble previously reading them as well! I have to say they are not exactly clear when you look at the specific words when it comes to diagram 2 and how the backplate should be set after fixing the magnetic rotor into position.
The really puzzling thing for me though is the way the engine just suddenly stops dead, it is as though the electrical supply to the ignition box has been cut but then the engine will start up straight away but not rev beyond 1500rpm. The ignition box does get very slightly warm but I put this down to it actually working to supply the power to the coils.

[Bryanj]

Clutching at straws but is it possible you have slides in wrong carbs, it can be done and when done they are backwards, can you do a compression test and/or leakdown as i hate to say it might have bad rings/compression, has a rodent built a nest in the exhaust.

These are all extremely rare but very ocasionally seen things and you did say clutching at straws!

[K2-K6]

OK, trawling memory from that setup, there was delicious home made cake and cups of tea involved 

The instruction item #18 seems wrongly advised with regards to crank position. We looked at it numerous times and set as you have Dave, but no dice and similar result.

It also didn't play out in final timing as the adjustment slots were insufficient to get advance, if you could keep it running.

What we ended up with was positioning the crank static point at either F or full advance (just can't recall which) then using the instructions complete other than that detail.

Think you can put the plate in end of slot adjustment positioning (as diagram)  if you use the F mark to set crank, or place the slots with screws centre point if you used the full advanced positioning as start point.

Those two don't matter too much as you'll ultimately check it at full advance in final set up. They'll give you roughly the same final positioning for slot and screw whichever way you start. They'll effectively converge to give that effect when timed correctly.

Hopefully that makes some sort of sense 

[K2-K6]

Forgot to note, they just appear to direct you to start off far too far retarded from their diagram etc.

Even if you keep it running, you'll just run out of slot to spin the timing plate when you try to correct at max advance check.

I don’t particulately like going against finite instructions, but just couldn't see it working as noted, it just doesn't check out correctly.

[Laverda Dave]

Thanks Bryan and Nigel.
I'll try these ideas tomorrow and report back👍.
Dave

[K2-K6]

Oops,, I've made up a word there

"I don’t particulately"

Amalgamation of "particularly & lately"  and without my spell checker removing or otherwise substituted with it's own nonsense.

Its probably stored that now in its little silicon filing cabinet, a bit like that machine Wallace & Gromit met on the moon  only to later wordbomb some of my further writing.

[AshimotoK0]

Do you have the parts to try out the standard ignition Dave. That's where I would start ... get it running as Honda intended then once running OK fit the fancy pants stuff. TBH the mileages our bikes do I just stick with the standard ignition. If you need to loan the parts to try 333 auto-advance, points plate/points etc I can send them to you.

[Laverda Dave]

It worked! Nigel's idea of the Boyer instructions being badly worded was the cause of the problem. I set the rotor static to the full advance mark on 1&4 with the back plate set fully clockwise. Once started I took it up to 4500 (on a newly built engine, not the best way to time the advance so I was very brief). The back plate needed turning fully anti clockwise on its slots to get the timing marks correct but it now runs as it should. I have also balanced the carbs, set the tickover to 1200rpm and adjusted the cold start clearance.
I will contact Boyer to advise them their set up instructions are a bit pants and need revising.
I'm off out round the block now to give it it's first run in 24 years🙂.
Thank you all for your help, great, great forum as always 👍.
Hopefully I'll post some photos later of the completed bike😁

[McCabe-Thiele (Ted)]

Sorted at last 👍👍👍

[magpie114]

Great news


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