Post by: oldboy on January 10, 2022, 01:58:32 PM
Post by: McCabe-Thiele (Ted) on January 10, 2022, 02:07:49 PM
Post by: Johnwebley on January 10, 2022, 02:22:38 PM
Runs sweet as a nut,
Electronic advances,
Would never go back
Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk
Post by: oldboy on January 10, 2022, 02:40:06 PM
Post by: Bryanj on January 10, 2022, 02:50:30 PM
Post by: Oddjob on January 10, 2022, 07:06:49 PM
http://sohc4shop.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=32&osCsid=54a6f2d00f03c0932c586efa44cad603
Post by: oldboy on January 10, 2022, 07:32:01 PM
Post by: kevski on January 10, 2022, 08:18:58 PM
Post by: Oddjob on January 10, 2022, 08:25:24 PM
Read all Hondamans points at the bottom and you can see the benefits.
One advantage he doesn't state is that you retain the original coils, some systems don't and you always get members on here asking about Ohms for coils etc. The Dyna coils for instance aren't known for being the best.
Post by: deltarider on January 10, 2022, 08:53:03 PM
Never understood what's so special about the Boyer & Bransden. Why you'd want four plugs to fire simultaneously, is an enigma for me. To me it seems that's energy wasted... Well, such an EI is cheaper to make ofcourse, that I know. All in all there's a lot you can sell with the invisible mysteries electricketry and magnetism. Boyer & Bransden... I guess you pay for the name, in this case you pay for both names. A lot of companies use this name & name trick, as to suggest one family could not have been enough to reach this quality. Seems folks are easily impressed by double names.
Here are a few:
Johnson & Johnson - talcum powder
Cross & Blackwell - spices
Benson & Hedges - homocide
Smith & Wesson - homocide
Bonnie & Clyde - banking
Post by: K2-K6 on January 10, 2022, 09:31:12 PM
Post by: deltarider on January 11, 2022, 01:28:10 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on January 11, 2022, 02:35:50 PM
It was more about your double barrelled name part that's humorous but in this case felt it was more the achievement of Bransden being recognized, justifiably I feel, in his contribution but added to the Boyer name (local bike dealership) in bringing it to market and providing finance to realise the initial production development. Seems honest to me.
Normal to credit clever thinking people in many fields, I have worked in others where the originator is specifically named due to the step chamge they brought along https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosambi%E2%80%93Karhunen%E2%80%93Lo%C3%A8ve_theorem such as this, when most can stand back and say "ooh that's very clever" :) this having a mathematical purity that's demonstrated by pushing data through the intended direction of use, but then moving it backward to exhamine how it compares to original start point in quantifying just how much of the original data is missed or reproduced. Normally referred to as a KL Transform, and definitely transformative in image data handling.
Post by: MrDavo on January 11, 2022, 10:04:00 PM
On the other hand, I’ve spent many an hour fiddling with points gaps and timing, fit and forget is wonderful- my Sportster and 911 both have magnetic triggers for the ignition on their flywheels that require zero attention ever.
Post by: Oddjob on January 11, 2022, 10:28:40 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 11, 2022, 10:32:18 PM
Post by: philward on January 11, 2022, 10:35:19 PM
Post by: Oddjob on January 12, 2022, 05:18:16 AM
buger I would have piggy backed your order ken to half the postage if it helped, as I think thats the way to go on 'Mejima'
I've asked Mark if the postage is the same for 2 modules, will let you know when he replies, postage is bloody expensive from the states at the moment, $47 for mine alone. I am buying a blade fuse box as well though.
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 12, 2022, 07:31:30 AM
Cheers mate, if need be I can fire you some fish straight over if a favourable outcome buddy.
I’m in the sticks today with crap signal but I’ll keep my eye on the phone in case you need to sort it and I can act swiftly for you.
Catch you a bit later on mate and thanks
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: Sesman on January 12, 2022, 11:04:37 AM
Post by: Bro550F on January 12, 2022, 11:32:15 AM
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 12, 2022, 12:11:20 PM
Bloody spell check!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: K2-K6 on January 12, 2022, 12:23:10 PM
Fish? Wtf??
Bloody spell check!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
;D was wondering about that, and when we went to a fish barter system. Thoughts of you coming home from a hard day's trawlering with a box of fish for Ken ;D
Post by: Sesman on January 12, 2022, 01:17:15 PM
On the topic of Hondaman ignition, do the original capacitors need to be in full working order?
Post by: K2-K6 on January 12, 2022, 01:30:35 PM
On the topic of Hondaman ignition, do the original capacitors need to be in full working order?
I read, a while ago, his thread on development of the system which is really interesting. It will run with no condenser facility as far as I recall.
In combination with many supplement type systems, the load experienced by conventional points type original arrangement by them switching the coil negative in and out is fully taken by a switching transistor in the new part of the electronics. The points then just act as timing pulse (to effectively fire the starting pistol in the module) and so have very minimal load requirements which is why the condensor had to be there and prevent the full load causing a spark to jump the points gap.
Post by: Sesman on January 12, 2022, 01:56:58 PM
Post by: Bryanj on January 12, 2022, 02:09:18 PM
Post by: deltarider on January 12, 2022, 03:03:38 PM
Without a capacitor you'd have an even steeper rise time, which is good, but you'd also have an increased risk of an erratic 'multi-firing' so to speak, which is not so good. So if Hondaman left out the capacitor in his module, I'd advise you to keep the stock one wired. In my module capacitors (the blue parts in the pic) are incorporated, so you can disconnect the old ones.On the topic of Hondaman ignition, do the original capacitors need to be in full working order?
I read, a while ago, his thread on development of the system which is really interesting. It will run with no condenser facility as far as I recall.
In combination with many supplement type systems, the load experienced by conventional points type original arrangement by them switching the coil negative in and out is fully taken by a switching transistor in the new part of the electronics. The points then just act as timing pulse (to effectively fire the starting pistol in the module) and so have very minimal load requirements which is why the condensor had to be there and prevent the full load causing a spark to jump the points gap.
Post by: Sesman on January 12, 2022, 03:10:15 PM
Post by: deltarider on January 12, 2022, 03:16:00 PM
Post by: Sesman on January 12, 2022, 03:25:37 PM
Post by: deltarider on January 12, 2022, 03:31:58 PM
The original cooling fins in the Velleman kit are an exaggeration in my view, soI have used the alu box and its lid to cool the power transistors.
Post by: Sesman on January 12, 2022, 03:37:14 PM
I’m going to give it a go.
Post by: deltarider on January 12, 2022, 03:46:52 PM
BTW, I have not been in a hangglider, but have done paragliding in the French Alps.
*Actually there's quite some space behind the side panel.
Post by: deltarider on January 12, 2022, 04:16:13 PM
Post by: Sesman on January 12, 2022, 04:54:40 PM
Seriously though I’ll source two units and give it a go. Seems it will cost around £35, so might still go the Hondaman route if the group purchase comes off.
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 12, 2022, 05:15:46 PM
Fish? Wtf??
Bloody spell check!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
;D was wondering about that, and when we went to a fish barter system. Thoughts of you coming home from a hard day's trawlering with a box of fish for Ken ;D
I am an aquatic consultant as a profession so if Ken'd take a bag of roach we can have a deal ;D
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 12, 2022, 05:24:15 PM
Would value be based on size, weight or rarity? For example blow fish is probably worth more £per kg than say a Chub, cod or trout. Is sea fish worth more than fresh water fish and does salmon vary in worth if is caught at sea or fresh water. ::). Just wondering.
On the topic of Hondaman ignition, do the original capacitors need to be in full working order?
Freshwater fish are very much more expensive than sea fish due to you having to rear them which isnt a quick fix. Example being..... A carp, say over 10lb you will pay anything up to £25-£30/lb, a carp over 30lb youre talking anything up to £80/lb depending on the strain, age and previous growth rates and food conversion rates and effficiency proven.
Trout are relativly cheap and so are small silver fish but generally the longer it takes to rear, the more the price so a 1lb Roach would be abput £6/lb where a Tench that takes twice as long to get to that size would be about £9-12/lb.
Told you I was boring, but you did ask ;D 8)
Post by: Sesman on January 12, 2022, 05:50:50 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 12, 2022, 06:33:16 PM
No, that’s really interesting actually. I spend ridiculous amounts of time trying to outwit fish on the banks of the Ouse, Derwent, Swale and assorted ponds in Yorkshire. It’s rather satisfying to know that I’m losing to a no good maggot eating type that’s has a £/kg value exceeding mine. No wonder those intensively stocked fishing ponds are targeted by unscrupulous types.
You have no idea, it's horrendous!
I used to fish the Swale a lot, the Nidd and all over around York when I was up there. Some bloody good dangling to be had ;) :)
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 12, 2022, 07:13:10 PM
I could be your friend ;D.
Seriously though I’ll source two units and give it a go. Seems it will cost around £35, so might still go the Hondaman route if the group purchase comes off.
Why not go one better Phil .. get something like this in the link and a build CDi like I did for my 1st 400/4 (from York BTW XDN 128R and still out there on SORN but listed as Red and it was Varnish Blue when new).
It was based it on the Kwak H1 CDi but the H1 had a high voltage winding coil on the alternator so i built a 400V inverter to generate the HT instead.
Something like this:- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253621579134
I did over 20k miles with that CDi on it and it was still fitted when I sold it in 1980.
Post by: kevski on January 12, 2022, 07:20:03 PM
Post by: Sesman on January 12, 2022, 07:25:49 PM
I’m definitely inspired though and I’m going to give it a go, just because I can. I’ve even bought a Fluke 117 on the strength of it.
Post by: Sesman on January 12, 2022, 07:33:31 PM
Oldboy is bound to be really confused now, i believe he is going to buy some fishing tackle , take the bike to the nearest lake throw it in, cast a line and hopes it will be hooked and come out sorted. :D
[/quote ;D
;D ;D ;D
Post by: K2-K6 on January 12, 2022, 07:36:16 PM
Post by: Sesman on January 12, 2022, 07:44:25 PM
Post by: Sesman on January 12, 2022, 07:45:03 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 12, 2022, 07:56:18 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on January 12, 2022, 08:15:30 PM
Post by: deltarider on January 12, 2022, 08:16:04 PM
If that one is a CDI, I don't know if I would want one. What I've heard - so, it's not from personal experience - the delivered initial ultra short Volt peak is very high, but there's practically no burn time, so if the initial peak misses for some reason, there's no reserve. CDI (thyristor) works well on some bikes like two strokes (?), on others a transistor EI is favoured. Again, this is from hearsay.I could be your friend ;D.
Seriously though I’ll source two units and give it a go. Seems it will cost around £35, so might still go the Hondaman route if the group purchase comes off.
Why not go one better Phil .. get something like this in the link and a build CDi like I did for my 1st 400/4 (from York BTW XDN 128R and still out there on SORN but listed as Red and it was Varnish Blue when new).
It was based it on the Kwak H1 CDi but the H1 had a high voltage winding coil on the alternator so i built a 400V inverter to generate the HT instead.
Something like this:- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253621579134
I did over 20k miles with that CDi on it and it was still fitted when I sold it in 1980.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 12, 2022, 08:46:38 PM
If that one is a CDI, I don't know if I would want one. What I've heard - so, it's not from personal experience - the delivered initial ultra short Volt peak is very high, but there's practically no burn time, so if the initial peak misses for some reason, there's no reserve. CDI (thyristor) works well on some bikes like two strokes (?), on others a transistor EI is favoured. Again, this is from hearsay.I could be your friend ;D.
Seriously though I’ll source two units and give it a go. Seems it will cost around £35, so might still go the Hondaman route if the group purchase comes off.
Why not go one better Phil .. get something like this in the link and a build CDi like I did for my 1st 400/4 (from York BTW XDN 128R and still out there on SORN but listed as Red and it was Varnish Blue when new).
It was based it on the Kwak H1 CDi but the H1 had a high voltage winding coil on the alternator so i built a 400V inverter to generate the HT instead.
Something like this:- https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/253621579134
I did over 20k miles with that CDi on it and it was still fitted when I sold it in 1980.
Well my 400/4 never missed a beat in 20k miles... just saying
CX500, Superdreams etc had CDi based ignitions.
Post by: Oddjob on January 12, 2022, 09:26:05 PM
I had a kidney test a few years ago where they inject you with iodine and watch to see how long it takes your kidneys to clear it, as iodine is fish based evidently I had to have a consultant present in case I went into shock but it appears iodine is ok with me.
Roo, Mark says the flat rate box can take another module but no more. So I’ll add you on, be aware though that we may get customs charges, you still ok with that?
Sorry for those others who were interested but nothing stopping you from a little group buy yourself, I reckon you could get 3 modules in a box, it’s only because I’m buying the fuse box as well that the limits 2
Post by: Sesman on January 12, 2022, 09:40:39 PM
Post by: Sesman on January 12, 2022, 10:01:54 PM
Apologies for such a basic question, but my electrical knowledge is pretty rudimentary.
Post by: philward on January 12, 2022, 10:38:23 PM
'Roo, Mark says the flat rate box can take another module but no more. So I’ll add you on, be aware though that we may get customs charges, you still ok with that?'
Ken, if I remember right, Mark put 'repairs' on the customs docs - I didn't pay customs, just arrived through the post. Fingers crossed, the same applies to your order!
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 12, 2022, 10:57:36 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 12, 2022, 11:01:10 PM
Post by: Oddjob on January 13, 2022, 04:23:12 AM
Post by: deltarider on January 13, 2022, 09:38:22 AM
Just a quick and novice question deltarider. The kit claims to have a maximum current rating of 4A. I’m guessing the nominal current draw for the original system is circa 3 to 3.5amps with OE coils? Is that uncomfortably close or are the units generously thermally rated in your opinion?So is mine actually ;D
Apologies for such a basic question, but my electrical knowledge is pretty rudimentary.
To me it seems there is nothing to worry about. Mine have switched current trillions and trillions of times (both 4,7 OEM as well as 3 Ω Dyna coils) and the unit is protected by zener diodes. The old Velleman K2543 parts, like I have used on my bike, have the TIP 162 as a power transistor, which, it seems, is no longer available. The newer which I am about to solder for a friend, have the BU931P transistor. No idea if that makes much difference if any. Experts are welcome to share their views.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 13, 2022, 11:02:02 AM
Just a quick and novice question deltarider. The kit claims to have a maximum current rating of 4A. I’m guessing the nominal current draw for the original system is circa 3 to 3.5amps with OE coils? Is that uncomfortably close or are the units generously thermally rated in your opinion?So is mine actually ;D
Apologies for such a basic question, but my electrical knowledge is pretty rudimentary.
To me it seems there is nothing to worry about. Mine have switched current trillions and trillions of times (both 4,7 OEM as well as 3 Ω Dyna coils) and the unit is protected by zener diodes. The old Velleman K2543 parts, like I have used on my bike, have the TIP 162 as a power transistor, which, it seems, is no longer available. The newer which I am about to solder for a friend, have the BU931P transistor. No idea if that makes much difference if any. Experts are welcome to share their views.
If I was building a points replacement transistorised ignition I would use one of the modern 'ignition driver' transistors like I used in my coil tester in the video link. I will check tomorrow when I am back at work which device I used. ..may well have been a BU931P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxWtR_m80Fc
Post by: Sesman on January 13, 2022, 11:09:00 AM
Post by: deltarider on January 13, 2022, 12:17:16 PM
Buying components separately and solder them to experimentboard like I did, is ofcourse the cheapest way, but to arrange it (the experiment board) is a bit of a puzzle and then squeeze them (it's two ofcourse) into the right box, also was. I've managed, but now that I will make another, I have chosen the next level in cost and have honoured Velleman by buying two sets of the K2543 kit. Then you have the prints and soldering the components is a piece of cake. So far I have never read something negative about the K2543. It's a very popular mod and the kit is much praised. The graphs I showed above were the resuts of a test a Dutch engineer has carried out with a MG sportscar. He is a member of a MG club.
Then you only need the appropiate box. I suggest aluminium, so you can use bottom and lid for the power transistors to dissipate heat, in stead of those exaggerated cooling fins.
For an initial test I had the box under the rubber strap that holds the battery in place. Once I had noticed that the unit still had not moved a mm, I decided to leave it there permanently.
Again cost wise, Hondamans is a good alternative for a reasonable price.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 13, 2022, 12:24:12 PM
Thanks guys. I’m about to delve into the mysterious rabbit hole of e lec tronics.
If anyone has a design they want to make up ... I can do a proper glass PCB
Post by: deltarider on January 13, 2022, 03:14:09 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 13, 2022, 03:58:37 PM
Forgive me my ignorance, but what is a glass PCB? :-[ Can it break?
Sorry ! Acually Epoxy-Glass PCB .. Type FR4
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 14, 2022, 07:42:49 AM
I checked and the ignition transistor I used in my tester and was a BU323Z (I will always remember it now as ---323---is the CB500/4 centre part code reference ;D. ) It's specifically designed for electronic ignitions etc. and has an internal 360v clamp.
http://www.farnell.com/datasheets/1916279.pdf
Post by: deltarider on January 14, 2022, 08:29:45 AM
Addition: Just saw in the spec sheet, it indeed is.
Post by: Sesman on January 14, 2022, 10:12:07 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 14, 2022, 11:34:08 AM
For clarity, are you guys recommending I source a 323 as a direct replacement for the TIP unit? Or should I go with the BU931P?
What's your circuit Phil?
Post by: Sesman on January 14, 2022, 11:47:48 AM
Electronic Ignition.
I’m intending the replicate the Velleman product, but by buying individual components rather than the ‘kit’. In doing so I’m going to build 2 systems. One for the 500 and one for the 550. The way I see it it’s cheaper than buying OE capacitors and the avoids the concerns over unreliable capacitor copies.
Although the Belleman item is good value in my opinion at about £35 per bike.
Post by: royhall on January 14, 2022, 12:25:34 PM
I was going to respond with more of my own view when I had time to write it, and will post that later.WHAT???? ;D ;D ;D
It was more about your double barrelled name part that's humorous but in this case felt it was more the achievement of Bransden being recognized, justifiably I feel, in his contribution but added to the Boyer name (local bike dealership) in bringing it to market and providing finance to realise the initial production development. Seems honest to me.
Normal to credit clever thinking people in many fields, I have worked in others where the originator is specifically named due to the step chamge they brought along https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosambi%E2%80%93Karhunen%E2%80%93Lo%C3%A8ve_theorem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosambi%E2%80%93Karhunen%E2%80%93Lo%C3%A8ve_theorem) such as this, when most can stand back and say "ooh that's very clever" :) this having a mathematical purity that's demonstrated by pushing data through the intended direction of use, but then moving it backward to exhamine how it compares to original start point in quantifying just how much of the original data is missed or reproduced. Normally referred to as a KL Transform, and definitely transformative in image data handling.
Post by: taysidedragon on January 14, 2022, 12:34:33 PM
I was going to respond with more of my own view when I had time to write it, and will post that later.WHAT???? ;D ;D ;D
It was more about your double barrelled name part that's humorous but in this case felt it was more the achievement of Bransden being recognized, justifiably I feel, in his contribution but added to the Boyer name (local bike dealership) in bringing it to market and providing finance to realise the initial production development. Seems honest to me.
Normal to credit clever thinking people in many fields, I have worked in others where the originator is specifically named due to the step chamge they brought along https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosambi%E2%80%93Karhunen%E2%80%93Lo%C3%A8ve_theorem (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosambi%E2%80%93Karhunen%E2%80%93Lo%C3%A8ve_theorem) such as this, when most can stand back and say "ooh that's very clever" :) this having a mathematical purity that's demonstrated by pushing data through the intended direction of use, but then moving it backward to exhamine how it compares to original start point in quantifying just how much of the original data is missed or reproduced. Normally referred to as a KL Transform, and definitely transformative in image data handling.
Warning! Scientist speaking. 😁
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 14, 2022, 02:36:52 PM
[attachimg=1]
Post by: deltarider on January 14, 2022, 02:48:29 PM
Post by: Sesman on January 14, 2022, 03:55:07 PM
The 2N2219A is available, unless you can recommend an alternative. Obviously the substitute component was for the TIP 162 as debated earlier. It’s just that I’m now unsure whether to use the BU323Z or the BU913P. Additionally, if I use the BU323Z can I discard the serially connected ZD1 and zD2?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 14, 2022, 04:09:13 PM
Perhaps this .. with zener integrated .... BU941ZPFI
https://www.farnell.com/datasheets/2307051.pdf
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 14, 2022, 04:30:24 PM
Post by: philward on January 14, 2022, 05:52:59 PM
Right thats me done, I have absolutely no idea what any of you are talking about ;D ;D
Thought it was just me!
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 14, 2022, 06:24:56 PM
I'm still watching to try and learn something but I shant be in the Q&A's later 8) :o
Post by: Oddjob on January 14, 2022, 06:47:15 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 14, 2022, 07:00:20 PM
I don't want to worry you guys but I think Ash and Sesman are building a bomb.
Design & production planning meeting. ;D ;D
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 14, 2022, 08:18:41 PM
Post by: Johnwebley on January 14, 2022, 08:37:35 PM
I don't want to worry you guys but I think Ash and Sesman are building a bomb.Making up to 9,000 explosions a minute
I don't understand it either
Sent from my SM-A750FN using Tapatalk
Post by: Bryanj on January 14, 2022, 08:49:49 PM
Cant smell it
Cant see it
Cant taste it
Bloody erts!
Post by: allankelly1 on January 14, 2022, 09:44:34 PM
Electrikery is easy,Hi Bryan
Cant smell it
Cant see it
Cant taste it
Bloody erts!
You can taste it if you stick a 9v battery on your tongue
Best wishes Al
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 14, 2022, 10:03:24 PM
Ladybird book from 1962 before all of the PC brigade b*llocks. bit of sal-ammoniac gel never did anyone any harm ;D ;D
[attachimg=1]
Post by: Sesman on January 14, 2022, 10:38:16 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 14, 2022, 11:23:42 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 15, 2022, 11:11:12 AM
Hi, Ash
Electronic Ignition.
I’m intending the replicate the Velleman product, but by buying individual components rather than the ‘kit’. In doing so I’m going to build 2 systems. One for the 500 and one for the 550. The way I see it it’s cheaper than buying OE capacitors and the avoids the concerns over unreliable capacitor copies.
Although the Velleman item is good value in my opinion at about £35 per bike.
How are you going to replicate the PCB Phil? Kit's look pretty good value to me ..It might be worth using a purpose-designed transistor though.... the capacitor value they are using is almost the same value as the one on the standard system, so I would either not include it or disconnect the Honda one. Retaining the Honda one would mean you can easily revert back to the standard system though .looking at the one in the kit, it looks pretty decent BUT I don't know it's voltage spec., so with a bit of ingenuity , and assuming it's a high voltage cap., you could wire the system so that if you revert to standard you could use the on-board capacitor to replicate the function of the Honda one. If you want me to test your Honda OEM condensers just send me them and will fully test with my insulation tester.
I just measured a CB500/4 condenser and it will fit in a large letter with a bit of ingenuity. I will stand you the return postage.
Post by: Sesman on January 15, 2022, 11:55:38 AM
Thanks for the offer; I may take you up on that.
I’m a bit busy at the moment so I’ll be in touch when I’ve decided on the solution. I’m favouring buying the self assembly kits, retaining the original capacitors unconnected if serviceable, but crafting a way of quickly reconnecting them if required.
Post by: deltarider on January 15, 2022, 12:30:04 PM
[...] looking at the one in the kit, it looks pretty decent BUT I don't know it's voltage spec.,The kit has a 600V one like shown in the first pic below. In mine I fitted the somewhat smaller 400V one, a MKT B32523 (blue in the second pic) as it was easier to fit size wise.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 16, 2022, 09:20:54 AM
This is the schematic of the Pirhana ignition BTW and turns out it used BU941Z ignition transistors ;) ;) .
Post by: K2-K6 on January 16, 2022, 09:51:46 AM
I've one of these on an old points distributor V8 that still works well (1980s fitment) and has a toggle switch to put the system into or out of use without changing components.
A question, one of the principal changes I can see in advantage for electronic systems is in keeping a constant "dwell" regardless of crankshaft speed, do these system still switch both up and down on points timing or hand over dwell function to electronic?
Post by: Oddjob on January 16, 2022, 10:08:22 AM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 16, 2022, 10:31:44 AM
Ash, Sparkrite were another make that switched electronically from points instigation to "convert" systems. Whether there's anything interesting in that product I'm not sure.
I've one of these on an old points distributor V8 that still works well (1980s fitment) and has a toggle switch to put the system into or out of use without changing components.
A question, one of the principal changes I can see in advantage for electronic systems is in keeping a constant "dwell" regardless of crankshaft speed, do these system still switch both up and down on points timing or hand over dwell function to electronic?
On the one we are discussing here, the points are retained plus the condenser so it replicates the old 'Kettering' system really but the load is not switched by the points but a semiconductor. One thing on the ones which retain the points though is to still pass a smallish current through the points, which stops them developing a corrosive (insulating) film because of the electronic cleaning action of the tiny sparks created by the low current.
I have a capacitance discharge and inductive discharge version of the Sparkrite ignitions in my store cupboard at work (with the little toggle switch to switch back to conventional). They were intended for my MG Midget, which I sold last year. i must do a 'tear-down' as our American friends say ;D ..... There are loads of design ideas out there to create multiple spark Cdi's etc but once you introduce a micro-controller you are vastly increasing the complexity and potential for failures or 'lock-ups' in a DIY system. To be honest there is nothing wrong with the standard Honda circuit, particularly for the low mileages done on classics. But a simple circuit like Phil and Deltarider (and I presume 'Hondaman' ) are suggesting makes sense due to the high costs of OEM points & condensers.
Me I am just a geek, anorak, collector-of-shiny-parts, nerd, rivet-counter, mad-scientist, terrorist or whatever you wanna chuck at me .lol ;D ;D ;D ;D keep it coming Ken ;D ;D
Post by: royhall on January 16, 2022, 10:35:16 AM
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Post by: Sesman on January 16, 2022, 11:55:23 AM
Back to the condenser issue. I think it may be preferable to use the PCB mounted capacitor rather than the original. Though if my original,is serviceable I’ll leave it in place, but disconnected.
Does that concur with your plans?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 16, 2022, 01:31:54 PM
Thanks Ash. Do you intend to employ the heat sink or the aluminium box casing I’ll be purchasing?
Back to the condenser issue. I think it may be preferable to use the PCB mounted capacitor rather than the original. Though if my original,is serviceable I’ll leave it in place, but disconnected.
Does that concur with your plans?
You can fit to either a heatsink or an alloy box. you will need insulating washer kits on the transistors though ...which I will supply you with :)
Post by: Sesman on January 16, 2022, 02:28:01 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 16, 2022, 02:28:10 PM
As the chromer will testify, not all your collected parts are shiny.
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Well since I switched to Prestige they are Roy :) Aaron is off my list now sadly
Post by: deltarider on January 16, 2022, 02:56:57 PM
Let's select the CB400F, which in standard config. revs up to 10.000 rpm, and then let's assume you are a specialist and have tuned your bike so far, it will now rev up to 12.000 rpm.
So let's imagine you are comfortably cruising down some countryroad, at 12.000 rpm, minding your own business. You even have time to do some calculation.
12.000 rpm = 200 rpm/sec, meaning the damned thing, with its double distributorless/wasted spark ignition, fires 200 times a second. So... correct me if I'm wrong, for each revolution there's 1 sec:200= 5ms or 5000 μs time for a complete firing sequens, right?
Now, let's have another look at what the Dutch engineer putting the Velleman to the test, has found (see pic below). BTW, it's only been a few years that I have discovered that test, which also was about other ignitions like the Accuspark, Lumination and the 123. The rise time of the Velleman is pretty short with 25 μs. Interpreting that graph, am I right to conclude that - fighting the back EMF and all - the coil is nonetheless fully saturated in a little over 50 μs? Meaning the rest of the time, is in theory available for discharging/sparking? Taking into account a duty cycle of 51-55%, what more could you want? BTW, note that the Velleman can fire up to 500Hz!
Now this test was carried out using a Bosch supercoil. Back then they were 3Ω IIRC.
I myself run 3Ω coils. I don't know why I ever bought them, but let's not go there now.
The point is... I cannot for the world see which EI - with no matter what fancy names - can offer me more, given the baseline, I want to maintain my breakerpoints, which I'm famliar with and which, ever since I mounted my transistorized ignition, see a very modest current (I measure 6V), just enough to stay clean.
Please correct me, if I have made a wrong assumption somewhere.
If someone with more knowledge than me, sees room for improvement, I'm all ears. Was I right to fit the somewhat smaller 400v MKT B32523 capacitors or should I obediently have followed the original scheme and have the 630V capacitors? In other words, what is the consequence of my choice?
I can recommend the location I've put my EI in. In all those years. the unit has not moved a mm. I guess that protruding little screw helps in this respect. I was surprised to find so much space behind the cover. The box I used was a diecast Hammond 10 X 5 X 2,5cm, IIRC, but - caution - that one was a very, very tight fit to squeeze the two prints in, even after shorting the power transistor's three legs and having them – the transisors – bend over as far as possible. One of these days I'll have a look with my cheap little endoscopic camera and see if there's even some more room behind that cover for a slightly bigger box. As said, I've abandoned the heatfins, which are an exaggeration IMO and have used the bottom and the lid of the alu box to let the power transistors dissipate their heat.
Post by: Johnwebley on January 16, 2022, 03:25:27 PM
my own preference is EI,because of no moving parts,
Boyer uses magnets,rotating near the pole of the coils,
and a later purchase for my RD yam, made by Vape,uses the "Hall" effect,( I think).this is because the cam is corroded so badly as to be like a cheese grater,as is made of unobtainium.
https://www.vape.eu/en/yamaha-125-rdx-engine-1e7
BTW, this thread has caused me to buy a Beginners Guide to Electronics book,
never to late to learn.
Post by: Sesman on January 16, 2022, 03:56:44 PM
Simply out of interest, have you come across an economical way to create a contactless trigger solution, not that you see any benefit of course.
Post by: allankelly1 on January 16, 2022, 05:31:28 PM
Hi John
my own preference is EI,because of no moving parts,
Boyer uses magnets,rotating near the pole of the coils,
and a later purchase for my RD yam, made by Vape,uses the "Hall" effect,( I think).this is because the cam is corroded so badly as to be like a cheese grater,as is made of unobtainium.
https://www.vape.eu/en/yamaha-125-rdx-engine-1e7
BTW, this thread has caused me to buy a Beginners Guide to Electronics book,
never to late to learn.
Got to say love the Vape system and fitted this to my RD350LC too
Will never look back as it replaced both the original charge system and original ignition cdi and coils with a modern electronic set up that is well proven
Plus flywheel is half the weight of the original that places less stress on the crank and make the engine more free revving
Also got full Boyer system on the CB400F
Again well proven system and like the the idea of no mechanical moving parts other than a magnetic trigger plus cdi and coils that runs faultless and if I do break down I have full recovery
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 16, 2022, 06:15:38 PM
I agree that a Hall-effect pointless system is to be preferred but we are talking about DIY type systems here similar to the Hondaman system, where if you get an electronics failure, you can simply switch back to standard. people will chine in " i am perfectly happy with the original Honda system' and I would agree.... as long as you fit Denso/Tec/Hitachi parts, possibly even Daiichi if they are the ones made in Japan.
My friend (has a sprint CB500K1) and two of his friends in York bought these fancy pant's systems, which cost a fortune but have been given to me to attempt to fix as they have all failed in service.
You are probably looking at a picture below of around £2.5k's worth of scrap.... they all went out and cut their losses and fitted Dyna systems, which I gather have performed OK.
[attachimg=1]
Post by: oldboy on January 16, 2022, 07:55:36 PM
Oldboy is bound to be really confused now, i believe he is going to buy some fishing tackle , take the bike to the nearest lake throw it in, cast a line and hopes it will be hooked and come out sorted. :D Your not far wrong, never seen a thread go off at such a tangent!!
Post by: oldboy on January 16, 2022, 08:13:25 PM
Post by: Johnwebley on January 16, 2022, 08:13:36 PM
Come on,it should ignite some interesting information, even a spark of an ideaOldboy is bound to be really confused now, i believe he is going to buy some fishing tackle , take the bike to the nearest lake throw it in, cast a line and hopes it will be hooked and come out sorted. :D Your not far wrong, never seen a thread go off at such a tangent!!
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 16, 2022, 08:21:40 PM
Post by: Johnwebley on January 16, 2022, 08:28:37 PM
I won't comment again. When I have done my own system I will post it in Anoraks corner.Ash,
Thank you for your input and knowledge,
We look forward to your finished unit
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Post by: K2-K6 on January 17, 2022, 11:56:50 AM
So I take it that's a "yes" then. Thank you all for your comments but please stop the replies as I am now totally confused and thinking of fitting a diesel engine in my 500. All I wanted is a reliable spark now and again and ended up with an O.U. coarse in electronics!! P.S. If Oddjob is still getting prices for bulk buying the Hondaman system please put me down for one.
Certainly the forum is comfortable in thread drift (or whatever you call it) and very often will turn up detail that's not immediately apparent, I don't see anything wrong with that but for those not interested it's fine to read the bits that are pertinent.
To directly answer the OP question;- Honda, through their r+d and design philosophy put in place all the elements to create a very good combustion design (tolerances, camshaft timing, combustion shape, acurate carburation etc) that make exceedingly low demands on ignition.
However, they put onto these for cylinder engines, ignition design concept that is virtually perfect, lacking for nothing in performance to run them without any concern whatsoever. It will work without issue.
Currently, and one of the biggest impact, is to scource reliable and original matching points + condensers to make them work as designed. That aspect may influence your current path.
The supplimentary systems that add electronic (solid state components) to the system and take over switching load are the first real choice to allow even substitute points etc to work effectively and will provide longevity to original specification systems by doing the donkey work of load switching. They don't fundamentally change the whole system performance compared to a properly set original component set. In other words it's still going to combust the same with most claims of more power etc being spurious. As long as you know what you are buying them for, then they are fine.
Additional to that is probably the most advanced, Boyer Bransden system that takes full control of triggering, advance+retard etc to completely remove the mechanical aspect of original system. Highly regarded over many years, low failure rate and additional control features if that interests the owner, a very competent alternative.
So the answer to original question is NO you don't "need" anything over and above original as it's a highly competent and effective design.
But you have a choice as above.
Post by: oldboy on January 17, 2022, 01:12:54 PM
Post by: deltarider on January 17, 2022, 04:08:10 PM
In my archives I have several socalled riders' reports in which, I don't know how many owners of CB500/550s have shared their long time experience (in distance over 40 times around the globe). I find it telling that criticism on the charging system is totally absent in all of them, both tests as well as reports, and the same goes for the ignition system with the exception of the sparkplugcaps.
You can choose for an EI for good reasons however. Some want more reserve where it concerns spark energy, some want to get rid of maintenance like adjusting points and some want to have both. But to suggest that there always has been a problem which needed to be resolved, has no roots in reality.
For now I'd like to comment on what Ash wrote in reply #104.
[...] the 'transistor switch' type ignition like the Velleman kit switches from the points so the transistor switches for the same time as the conventional system and with it's 0.2uF capacitor storing the energy from the coil I would imagine the performance to be the same as the points type ignition. [...]For a good understanding: in a system like mine and Hondaman's, the mechanical points switch only the modest control current and the power transistor switches the full current to the coil. The characteristics of that switching differ significantly however. Where the breakerpoints switch 'gradually' and so, in a conventional systen, in spite of the capacitor, energy will be lost, the transistor switches in practically no time. Then it's all or nothing. This characteristic, that implies no losses, helps to build extra reserve of energy. This can be noticed near idling and in revving towards red zone, not so much mid range. Realise that the OEM ignition is a compromise and its components, in particular the capacitor, are selected thus, that it performs best at where it's operated most: midrange. You cannot say the ultra fast cutting of the transistor equals the relatively 'slow' switching of the breakerpoint. Before I made my choice, I had studied Steinbuch's De Automobiel vol.8 and a tutorial for mechanics by Bosch on this. Both sources have convinced me that even a simple transistor ignition like mine, can be a useful mod, because it improves the quality of switching, resulting in a shorter rise time. What does not change, using breakerpoints in combination with a transistor ignition like mine, is the dwell time ofcourse. Operated by a cam, mechanical breakers gradually open and then need the same cam and time (!) to close again. But - other than popular believe - we are not short of dwell time. Not at all! Even at 10.000 rpm there is 6 ms available for a cycle of charge and discharge, which is plen-ty. How? Well, simple. Realise that each of both ignitions our bikes have, only has to fire two cylinders simultaneously and not six one after the other...
All in all, where it concerns spark energy reserve, the benefit of a full EI over my module is nihil, as my coils, even with the standard dwell, will become fully saturated @ even 10.000 rpm.
Bear in mind that a full saturation - which a standard system will not achieve at 10.000 rpm, is not needed. Coils are selected thus by Honda that even partially saturated, they perform adequately.
More on this in my next post, where I will present data on a standard CB350F/400F ignition and the deductions, made by a member of the German forum.
Post by: Johnwebley on January 17, 2022, 05:11:52 PM
I found this thread fascinating,
So much so,I invested some cash to try and learn more,
Thanks all(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220117/1ffbdd1d594d028803321c6734c0626c.jpg)
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Post by: Oddjob on January 17, 2022, 05:43:51 PM
Post by: Sesman on January 17, 2022, 06:09:11 PM
Seriously though. I transistorised switch has got to be a better solution to achieve a superior Ldi/dt HT performance and reducing stored energy across the points Cdv/dt?
I’m betting that if CDI or and EI was available to Mr Honda back in the 70s he would have used it in preference to a mechanical system.
Just wondering….
Post by: SteveD CB500K0 on January 18, 2022, 07:17:20 AM
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Post by: oldboy on January 18, 2022, 10:25:11 AM
Post by: royhall on January 18, 2022, 10:28:24 AM
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Post by: Johnwebley on January 18, 2022, 02:26:03 PM
As I mentioned previously,
I found this thread fascinating,
So much so,I invested some cash to try and learn more,
Thanks all(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220117/1ffbdd1d594d028803321c6734c0626c.jpg)
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Okay,
this elektrickery is complicated.
I have spent several hours reading the book,
its not easy,
I have found pretty coloured resistors
Polarized,and non polarized capacitors,
Diodes,regular ,zener,,Photo, Schottky,and light emitting !!
LED have anodes and cathodes,who knew ?
as for transistors,you can have either,or both,NPN and PNP type,just like alphabet spagetti !!
this is not to mention Inttegrated circuits .
very interesting,,but I think for the amount I would build,I shall ask,
the knowledge is so detailed ,so various, I shall leave to the experts .
Post by: deltarider on January 18, 2022, 04:18:17 PM
For convenience I've made a copy in translation, which you find below. If you need more translation, feel free to ask. If you can shoot holes in his explanation, you're invited ofcourse. He is a friendly person and always open to criticism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBJY8705gdc&t=1747s
HONDA CB350F IGNITION Specifications and Settings
COILS TEC FL703-12V
Primary resistance ~ 4,5Ω
Secundary resistance ~ 14,7kΩ
Turns primary 420
Turns secundary 13.000
Voltage secundary @ 10001/~14kV @10.0001/~11kV
Inductance ~ 14mH
Saturation (see 28:41-29:12 for explanation) τ = L/Rp = 3,1ms (63,2%) τ x 3 = 9,3ms
Charge time @ 1.000 rpm and 55% Dwell* 1 revolution = 0,06s > 33ms
Charge time @ 10.000rpm and 55% Dwell* 1 revolution = 0,006s > 3,3ms
CONDENSERS
Capacity 0,22 μF +/- 10%
courtesy Gruzzel
* Actually it is 55% Duty Cycle which equals 49,5o Dwell (4 cyl scale) which is a tad narrower than a 0,3 mm gap. Personally I'd chose a somewhat wider opening as the gap tends to narrow over time (Deltarider).
Post by: allankelly1 on January 18, 2022, 04:54:53 PM
Been following this thread with some real interest
Like it had been said the original Honda design is up to the task and I am not making any claims I understand any of the electronic stuff, but for me personally if you are going to add any electronic control to a ignition system it make more sense (for me) just to replace the lot rather than have a modified /hybrid system
Modern Electronic ignition systems are well proven and with a system such a Boyer Brandsen you remove all the mechanical switches and the mechanical ignition advance and simplify everything, and for me it’s knowing that the complete ignition system is as good as new (if it needs replacing) even if it is a bit of an expense at the time.
(The full system included magnetic pick up CDI and two micro coils was only £237 which I felt was good value for a complete electronic ignition system when you look at how much we spend on our toys)
This is not a criticism of this thread or anybody here as I can see there are some real electronic gurus and wish I did understand it but I am more of a mechanical engineer and is just a personal point of view
Best wishes to you all Al
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Post by: Sesman on January 18, 2022, 05:24:49 PM
Does the Hondaman kit utilise the original capacitors? If so then the buyer could be in for some unforeseen additional costs if his condensers are fooled.
I really don’t know. The Ashmac solution (mainly Ash) is just an inexpensive experiment rather than a contender.
Post by: K2-K6 on January 18, 2022, 05:45:18 PM
As I understand it, no his system doesn't use them. He leaves them in place but disconnected such that IF his electronics were to fail, then you can hook them back in circuit at roadside in reverting to straight points ignition to not leave you stranded.
Essentially the switching transistor takes all of the load itself with no need of condenser to mitigate. The "fault" side of the points that the condensers are there to control doesn't go away (as are most things in physics) it just comes out as heat from that transistor which has to be adequately dispersed to avoid failure of that component. Two different sides of a square in carrying out the same task effectively.
Post by: deltarider on January 19, 2022, 08:39:13 AM
Also, IIRC Hondaman at first had condensers built in, like in my module, then left them out, then later, after some customers had experienced irregularities, advised to use condensers again, but now the OEM ones that are at the base plate. Smart choice as this makes returning to OEM, in case of failure, even easier. Also this makes his modules cheaper to make, condensers being the second component in price after the power transistor.
Those of you that have studied the data in reply #170, will now understand that where the stock ignition cannot saturate the coils completely in the higher rpms, my module can, thanks to that shorter rise time it provides. As predicted by Bosch and Steinbuch, the gain is in the low and in the high rpms.
Post by: Oddjob on January 19, 2022, 01:18:41 PM
"Does the Hondaman kit utilise the original capacitors? If so then the buyer could be in for some unforeseen additional costs if his condensers are fooled."
As I understand it, no his system doesn't use them. He leaves them in place but disconnected such that IF his electronics were to fail, then you can hook them back in circuit at roadside in reverting to straight points ignition to not leave you stranded.
Essentially the switching transistor takes all of the load itself with no need of condenser to mitigate. The "fault" side of the points that the condensers are there to control doesn't go away (as are most things in physics) it just comes out as heat from that transistor which has to be adequately dispersed to avoid failure of that component. Two different sides of a square in carrying out the same task effectively.
Not 100% sure but I seem to recall Mark saying the condensers were left in circuit so that reverting to the points was just a matter of disconnecting the module and restoring the blue/yellow connectors to the original positions. Might be wrong though. If not, then your going to need a toolkit to revert by the roadside.
Post by: deltarider on January 19, 2022, 02:29:45 PM
Essentially the switching transistor takes all of the load itself with no need of condenser to mitigate. The "fault" side of the points that the condensers are there to control doesn't go away (as are most things in physics) it just comes out as heat from that transistor which has to be adequately dispersed to avoid failure of that component. Two different sides of a square in carrying out the same task effectively.I am not sure, I can share your view. First of all, the 'heat' at the back of the power transistor is hardly there. I mean, I can practically hold my finger there. The condenser is there to dampen possible 'hesitation' of the breakerpoints in their opening and closing and so prevent the transistors interpreting all of these 'hesitations' as switch moments. it would result in multiple switching by the power transistor, which in its turn would produce erratic sparking, that is: if there would be anything left to spark from...
The condenser is there to make sure the transistors receive one - and only one - clear signal.
Post by: royhall on January 19, 2022, 03:46:35 PM
Post by: deltarider on January 19, 2022, 08:26:23 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 19, 2022, 08:27:03 PM
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Post by: Sesman on January 19, 2022, 08:42:19 PM
Post by: Laverdaroo on January 19, 2022, 11:17:17 PM
Post by: royhall on January 20, 2022, 07:03:48 AM
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Post by: K2-K6 on January 21, 2022, 09:12:32 AM
Essentially the switching transistor takes all of the load itself with no need of condenser to mitigate. The "fault" side of the points that the condensers are there to control doesn't go away (as are most things in physics) it just comes out as heat from that transistor which has to be adequately dispersed to avoid failure of that component. Two different sides of a square in carrying out the same task effectively.I am not sure, I can share your view. First of all, the 'heat' at the back of the power transistor is hardly there. I mean, I can practically hold my finger there. The condenser is there to dampen possible 'hesitation' of the breakerpoints in their opening and closing and so prevent the transistors interpreting all of these 'hesitations' as switch moments. it would result in multiple switching by the power transistor, which in its turn would produce erratic sparking, that is: if there would be anything left to spark from...
The condenser is there to make sure the transistors receive one - and only one - clear signal.
"As said, I've abandoned the heatfins, which are an exaggeration IMO and have used the bottom and the lid of the alu box to let the power transistors dissipate their heat."
From your post #100 there will always be a byproduct, however the size of it manifests. It may be less or more at any one point in a system (denoting efficiency of that system relative to another) but it won't go away.
Post by: K2-K6 on January 21, 2022, 09:20:07 AM
Back then, I had no choice than to make my own. All products that I had seen (Piranha, etc) were not to my liking. For my travels I wanted something robust with a guaranteed simple back up, other than eventually having to apply for a new black box in farawaygistan and then possibly having to wait days for the thing to arrive. In particular I didn't like the positioning of the electronics. Mine are high and dry - I can cross a stream with it - and they see no higher temperature than ambient. They are shielded against vibrations and moisture. And there's the joy of making the thing yourself ofcourse. :D
Curios about the logic here. Starting with a Honda system that was effectively peerless when contemporary, placing another whole system to be more reliable? with the original as backup, appears inverted in straight mechanical logic. Backup contingency would surely be two sets of points and two condenser stored on the bike perhaps (maybe in the headlight shell to be always available) and you'd never be stranded such that requirements of outside assistance is necessary.
I get that the electronic systems can reduce the duty load of the original points, but many of these in period additions where constructed and sold on attributes that will definitely improve a number of elements on car distributor systems that never existed in the Honda 4 cylinder ignition systems in the first place.
Post by: royhall on January 21, 2022, 09:32:27 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on January 21, 2022, 10:00:45 AM
Cars are far more often affected by fuel pump relay, had two of those. One rescued by AA and one I by bypassed with a supply (10 amp fused and ignition controlled) from the fag lighter "ring main" ;D
Also one alternator on an old land rover in excess of a hundred thousand miles, AA again and charged it from his van while he looked the manuls etc. He could of got one from somewhere as it was about 1.00am which would mean a long wait, and so started it with the handle (old V8 still with that facility) and he drove to my home so i could follow him without headlights on to save power :)
Highly unlikely that you'd get a failure on a bike of any ignition system.
Post by: Sesman on January 21, 2022, 10:12:08 AM
My personal objective is to achieve a heap and cheerful way of preserving my original points and condensers due to the prohibitive cost of quality replacements. I bet the materials won’t cost more than £7 and my time comes for free. Also it’s quite possible that if a do need points I can use low quality items and junk the condenser.
Just saying.
Post by: royhall on January 21, 2022, 10:17:21 AM
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Post by: allankelly1 on January 21, 2022, 10:22:57 AM
which is more than a complete Boyer kitSo personally for me going full EI makes perfect sense
Best wishes Al
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Post by: royhall on January 21, 2022, 10:31:28 AM
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 21, 2022, 10:32:48 AM
just can't keep my big trap shut ;D ;D
back to :-
[attach=2]
Post by: royhall on January 21, 2022, 10:34:46 AM
Post by: allankelly1 on January 21, 2022, 10:35:17 AM
Or just a points replacement system for £110. Keeping existing coils and advancer, and let's be honest those parts never break.I would agree on the advance system but not so much on coils as originals and their HT leads are almost 50 years old now
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Post by: royhall on January 21, 2022, 10:38:45 AM
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 21, 2022, 11:17:03 AM
Post by: K2-K6 on January 21, 2022, 11:43:52 AM
I am actually finding this thread very interesting and informative but I feel I need to keep interjecting these little comments to keep things real. Am looking forward to seeing the home brewed EI.
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Same here, and appreciate the contributions in discussing it. As noted, each may have a different interest in why or why not to use a particular system, with decent debate that can inform those views then people can at least make up their own mind as to which elements they find most important to their situation.
When I was training in engineering, they said "perfection doesn't exist" and "that you can't be looking close enough if you think it does".
To this is added "that's what understanding realistic tolerancing is about" it's this bit that makes producing anything realistic as properly applied it will bring components to exist that meet both durability, performance AND cost targets.
Another saying is "can you afford to pay for that tolerance" as used in "that's exactly what I want" followed by "how much did you say it's going to cost ? "
The classic, performance-weight-cost balance, pick two of three, because that's what production engineering is about. Or versions thereof.
Certainly I value Ash's input from electronic side, delta's from a different sphere than our own UK one, along with any others that are either contributing or questioning.
Many aftermarket "solutions" of course will trumpet their own superiority naturally, but through intelligent discussion here we can certainly bring to sharp focus exactly what does what.
Post by: royhall on January 21, 2022, 12:31:57 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 21, 2022, 12:53:18 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on January 21, 2022, 01:18:04 PM
I've worked for years on a particular type of car engine ( from pre electronic, but most are now not) with the electronic ignition fitted as standard viewed as extremely suspect. I've only ever had one definitely confirmed failure in my hands, which was in 1989 :) it's a full on electronic system with mag/hall effect triggering (ooh, forgot that it's always been mechanical advance) the signal of which is amplified to then switch load with a transistor for single coil. It has a curiosity, often missed, that causes a "failure" in vehicle, that it has a single wire from the switched side of coil to give a metronome signal to the fuel injection ECU, this effectively gives the ECU rpm read and without which it KNOWS the crank isn't turning at all. The uppshot of which means the ECU will not fire the injectors as internal logic deems the engine is stopped. No end of fun is had with this if missed, but the ignition often gets the blame as cranking it reveals it dead as a doornail. Often come on forum with "I've replaced, leads cap, coil, plugs etc etc" all to no avail.
Or the next item they project as failed is the ECU as there's not fuel once they find they have a spark.
Non start and everyone seems to point to ignition as they don't know what goes on in that suspicious electronic fandangled thing. Couldn't possibly be the fuel temp sensor, pressure regulator, pump feed, air flow meter, idle air control valve etc etc, always a guess but ignition rarely failed when it comes down to through diagnosis.
Interesting that whatever the start point, the ignition nearly always cops as if it's some subversive system aimed solely at not taking you where you need to go, but often totally reliable.
Post by: deltarider on January 21, 2022, 01:55:59 PM
"As said, I've abandoned the heatfins, which are an exaggeration IMO and have used the bottom and the lid of the alu box to let the power transistors dissipate their heat."I have reserved one of my heatsinks for when my rectifier would die and I'd had to make a new one with a Schottky diode:
From your post #100 there will always be a byproduct, however the size of it manifests. It may be less or more at any one point in a system (denoting efficiency of that system relative to another) but it won't go away.
[...] this looks like a nice tinkerjob for the winter months ahead anyway. I mean, isn't this what we all want for our world: less heat? I even might make one myself and use the heatsink that came with the Velleman K2543 kit (electronic transistor ignition). I have never needed that heatsink as I used an alloy box and its lid to cool my Darlingtons. What do you think? It's the finned black alu part on top. It measures 70X35 mm.
Post by: deltarider on January 21, 2022, 02:04:21 PM
Have you seen the graph of the rise time?* For a good comparison I'd welcome such a graph of a 100% OEM system, if only to check if my claim is valid.Back then, I had no choice than to make my own. All products that I had seen (Piranha, etc) were not to my liking. For my travels I wanted something robust with a guaranteed simple back up, other than eventually having to apply for a new black box in farawaygistan and then possibly having to wait days for the thing to arrive. In particular I didn't like the positioning of the electronics. Mine are high and dry - I can cross a stream with it - and they see no higher temperature than ambient. They are shielded against vibrations and moisture. And there's the joy of making the thing yourself ofcourse. :D
Curios about the logic here. Starting with a Honda system that was effectively peerless when contemporary, placing another whole system to be more reliable? with the original as backup, appears inverted in straight mechanical logic. Backup contingency would surely be two sets of points and two condenser stored on the bike perhaps (maybe in the headlight shell to be always available) and you'd never be stranded such that requirements of outside assistance is necessary.
I get that the electronic systems can reduce the duty load of the original points, but many of these in period additions where constructed and sold on attributes that will definitely improve a number of elements on car distributor systems that never existed in the Honda 4 cylinder ignition systems in the first place.
* Note: this one depicts the rise time with a 3Ω coil.
Post by: deltarider on January 21, 2022, 02:18:53 PM
[...] Sorry, I said I would zip it but couldn't resist.Don't worry, Roy. This thread is just getting on steam. Besides, I have this funny feeling the zip wasn't meant for you. Could it be a self portrait of Ash at the dentist? ;D
Post by: K2-K6 on January 21, 2022, 02:20:09 PM
The car system referred to above is for a V8 with distributor, it uses a 0.8ohm coil as it doesn't effectively have a "dwell" geometry in purist sense. Switched only electronically it has a fix (time only) saturation which remains constant right through the rpm operating range. Meaning they can optimise the coil irrespective of the range the engine operates, and so coil is always at ideal. That's one advantage that electronic may be able to count as definite.
Post by: deltarider on January 21, 2022, 02:43:20 PM
Post by: Sesman on January 21, 2022, 02:59:20 PM
Dare I suggest we now close out and wait an entry in the projects forum?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 22, 2022, 11:05:22 AM
With Sesman I am designing our own system with the most modern components I can get hold of and also, which are not at the end of production or obsolete and as miniaturised as possible. This will be detailed in Anorak's corner, where I (we) won't bore the pants off anyone, who is not particularly interested. That section on here was introduced on here , at my request, by SteveD, who kindly gave me admin rights, to discuss in-depth. techy issues.
Post by: Johnwebley on January 22, 2022, 11:26:34 AM
you NEVER bore, I am just in awe of your knowledge,
Keep it going
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Post by: deltarider on January 22, 2022, 11:41:22 AM
The zip by the way wasn't intended for anyone but ME ;D ;D .. it was a self-imposed gagging order on myself to call it a day not bore the pants off most people.Bravo!
With Sesman I am designing our own system with the most modern components I can get hold of and also, which are not at the end of production or obsolete and as miniaturised as possible. This will be detailed in Anorak's corner, where I (we) won't bore the pants off anyone, who is not particularly interested. That section on here was introduced on here , at my request, by SteveD, who kindly gave me admin rights, to discuss in-depth. techy issues.
Post by: Oddjob on January 22, 2022, 11:58:42 AM
Post by: royhall on January 22, 2022, 12:20:00 PM
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Post by: K2-K6 on January 22, 2022, 01:27:48 PM
Ordinarily you'd have to get a long way into the detail just to understand what it is you're trying to improve upon, that includes the OP question about use of alternative ignition system to original.
For those that don't want to read it, there's an easy answer though :) but with little action on other threads and this one delivering interest in understanding and debate, then clearly it fits within a forum like this.
Post by: Sesman on January 22, 2022, 01:40:12 PM
As I'm a fan of electronic ignition can I be your first beta test customer. I have a new CB750 project waiting.
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Push of, I’m the test pilot for Ash. He’s doing all the heavy lifting and clever stuff
Post by: royhall on January 22, 2022, 01:59:53 PM
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 22, 2022, 03:37:25 PM
Nah your the Alpha tester and development guy. I could be the first paying customer when it goes into Beta.
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Now now boys .. you can't both test it simultaneously. ;D I will probably test mine on a purpose built test rig ..with it running continuously at rev's equivalent to 80 MPH in an oven at elevated temperature akin to what it will 'see' on a bike... plus excursions to higher rev's and with it also 'static' with the points closed condition.
IMHO I think it needs to be achieved in a package the same size envelope as the B.B. ignition black box if possible. After all Ernie Bransden was electronically switching the same coils/currents way back in the 70's, in that small package and ... as far as I know .... the black box was pretty reliable. Unless anyone on here has experienced failure.
Post by: Johnwebley on January 22, 2022, 03:45:07 PM
Hi Ash,
I had my original BB black box develope a fault after about 20yrs ,
it failed to switch on occasionall,,you could just hear a "click" when it switched on,.
but sometimes it didn't.
know idea if there is a relay inside,
I now have the red box,with BB coils and works perfectly.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 22, 2022, 07:10:20 PM
Hi Ash,
I had my original BB black box develope a fault after about 20yrs ,
it failed to switch on occasionall,,you could just hear a "click" when it switched on,.
but sometimes it didn't.
know idea if there is a relay inside,
I now have the red box,with BB coils and works perfectly.
Do you still have the old one John?
Post by: oldboy on January 23, 2022, 10:41:25 AM
Post by: Johnwebley on January 23, 2022, 10:54:46 AM
Yes,!!!
Hi Ash,
I had my original BB black box develope a fault after about 20yrs ,
it failed to switch on occasionall,,you could just hear a "click" when it switched on,.
but sometimes it didn't.
know idea if there is a relay inside,
I now have the red box,with BB coils and works perfectly.
Do you still have the old one John?
PM me,
I will send it for you to explore
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Post by: allankelly1 on January 23, 2022, 11:08:23 AM
Hi John
Hi Ash,
I had my original BB black box develope a fault after about 20yrs ,
it failed to switch on occasionall,,you could just hear a "click" when it switched on,.
but sometimes it didn't.
know idea if there is a relay inside,
I now have the red box,with BB coils and works perfectly.
Yes I have a full BB system and there must be a switch or relay as instructions say that after 15sec of engine stop if the ignition is left on the system automatically switches itself off I guess via this relay
Best regards Al
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Post by: K2-K6 on January 26, 2022, 10:42:54 AM
I’ve just seen a squirrel…..
Seriously though. I transistorised switch has got to be a better solution to achieve a superior Ldi/dt HT performance and reducing stored energy across the points Cdv/dt?
I’m betting that if CDI or and EI was available to Mr Honda back in the 70s he would have used it in preference to a mechanical system.
Just wondering….
Interesting point, there's more to the fundamental part and characteristics of this ignition type than first appearance.
Undoubtedly Honda would have known then the variance in options available to them, with some more suitable than others. The general view given out over many years by popular opinions that the bigger the spark the better. In essence, that the flash-bang-wallop and lightning-level-blow-your-trousers-off provision of sparks is going to out perform anything else couldn't be more inaccurate.
CDI for example could be viewed as mostly unsuitable for these four stroke combustion designs from this time. Two stroke, yes, as they have a fundamentally different requirement in their combustion chamber. More related to diesels in reality, the central (usually) mounted plug with almost perfectly sized initial burn chamber in a cone geometry, is perfect for high energy short spark duration output of CDI systems. It gets the mixture going locally to the plug which effectively ignites the rest of the chamber as it comes up to squish (and why tuners often concentrate on their favourite swish geometry) to efficiently light the remaining charge as it comes to full compression.
The honda four stroke strategy is completely different (as are most compared to 2T ) in that the spark duration is lengthened to work with the engine to burn effectively. Of the ignition system modifers/suppliers only Hondaman talks about this element, and mimics the Honda stategy in switch time to deploy the coil output in extending the spark.
In essence, the Honda design (I'd consider them absolute masters of this capability) get the complete four stroke cycle to optimum such that it's easy to ignite the chamber, it really doesn't need anything with increased energy to fit the strategy they've created. You can throw as much flash-bang at it as you wish, it won't make a blind bit of difference (compared to properly performing original) as you aren't changing combustion conditions by doing so.
In reality, if you shorten the spark too far the risk of uncontrolled detonation travels closer to the ideal combustion, eating safety margin as it does so.
The only thing supplimentary systems do is to take switch load from breakers and make them last longer.
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 26, 2022, 11:05:18 AM
Back in your naughty corner Ash :-X :-X
Post by: K2-K6 on January 26, 2022, 11:15:06 AM
You'll see a much reduced overall combustion time for that type of head which is why high revving faster engines use the layout as it has a much higher ceiling in combustion terms.
You can broadly separate them by looking at total ignition advance. The lower that is the faster the chamber is burning, and by default doesn't need the same lead time from ignition to get the burn coinciding with the piston being just past TDC.
Post by: K2-K6 on January 26, 2022, 11:35:24 AM
[attachimg=1]
The Honda RCB endurance racer of 1970s. The bottom end is straight 750 SOHC, note ignition removed, twin cam 4 valve head, ignition I think is picture central (see the two opposed pickup) running on the rear of alternator spindle that's geared/chain driven to left of crankshaft.
They also went further on later modification of this engine by converting it to gear primary drive.
Post by: deltarider on January 26, 2022, 12:09:13 PM
Could it happen? In theory yes. After all, I vaguely remember something about Rc time from school. It's my view, it will be hard to tell, if there's a significant and benificial effect. The first can be realised by applying test equipment I cannot afford. The latter will be harder to tell. How can you tell what the burn time attributed over the flame front's performance? With a stock ignition or with a transistorized one there will be ample burn time during enough degrees crank rotation. With discharging capacitors this might be different however. As I understand it, there's no reserve and a CDI may not be able to 'try again' like the pic below shows.
Post by: K2-K6 on January 26, 2022, 01:33:59 PM
But also not discarding it in his translation to solid state switching.
The "spark form" is simply a characteristic of switching operation for condenser assisted switching, certainly it can be looked at as imperfection, but with the overiding caveat that the original combustion design, strategy and R&D was completed within that status. It therefore forms part of the whole system performance as designed. To delete it with "improved" switching has implications that are unquantified and will likely have an impact on combustion.
Post by: K2-K6 on January 26, 2022, 01:41:53 PM
Certainly it's possible, but are you just going to "luck" into it or appreciate why you are changing something and what the effects really impact.
Post by: allankelly1 on January 26, 2022, 01:47:25 PM
Or maybe I am talking rubbish and happy to be corrected
Best regards Al
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Post by: K2-K6 on January 26, 2022, 01:56:44 PM
Relatively low compression ratio gives it a large, and natural, fuel quality acceptance without any significant adjustment.
Many of the characteristic of these engines are now seen in current designs, they really were very far ahead in the experience and knowledge they brought to this subject.
Using a high octane fuel in them has all but zero observable effect.
Post by: allankelly1 on January 26, 2022, 01:58:20 PM
Every day is a school day
Best regards Al
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Post by: Sesman on January 26, 2022, 02:00:39 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on January 26, 2022, 02:21:25 PM
Oh. I believe those hyper power drag engines employ magneto’s. Also very popular in aero circles too. ;)
Different reasons I feel. Aero was ordinarily mag, ultimately for reliability (useful attribute when your motor is in the sky) but Merlin for example is 4 valve. Many use multi plugs to spread the flame front over a wider piston as I understand it, and so not so dependent on "herding" all the available stratified charge past the burn nucleus.
Drag motors etc are running very specific range of fuelling and fuels that lay outside general use. Also with two seperate mag and plugs duplicated on many to avoid full combustion failure. It's combustion failing to go or complete in this sphere that elevates the risk hugely. Normally the "burn" starts and travels through to complete if possible. Failure to complete leaves unwanted fuel sacrificial to detonation (uncontrolled and staccato explosion, rather than controlled burn ) that usually takes the cylinder with it in extremes.
Post by: K2-K6 on January 26, 2022, 02:50:58 PM
But more than anything, the engineers that did the original research and design of all these machines, I'm in awe of.
There's been some very clever people within these teams, trying to understand exactly what they did is intriguing.
Post by: Sesman on January 26, 2022, 03:20:51 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 26, 2022, 03:40:50 PM
Certainly I find this whole topic fascinating.
But more than anything, the engineers that did the original research and design of all these machines, I'm in awe of.
There's been some very clever people within these teams, trying to understand exactly what they did is intriguing.
Yes .. some clever stuff in the old faulty Mk3 Boyer-Bransden black box (thanks JohnW :) ) that I am just de-potting (with difficulty) I was expecting to find a power transistor for each coil but no, just one big TO3 metal case device (sadly with no markings) .... Will report fully in Anoraks Corner in due course, when I have fully de-potted it and drawn out the circuit on CAD. No relay inside by the way and no chips just discrete components.
Oh sh*t Cathy just came in early and I have it boiling away in a pan on the kitchen hob :-[ :-[ :-[
Post by: K2-K6 on January 26, 2022, 03:44:36 PM
Post by: cbxman on January 26, 2022, 05:22:51 PM
I’ve just seen a squirrel…..
Seriously though. I transistorised switch has got to be a better solution to achieve a superior Ldi/dt HT performance and reducing stored energy across the points Cdv/dt?
I’m betting that if CDI or and EI was available to Mr Honda back in the 70s he would have used it in preference to a mechanical system.
Just wondering….
Mr Honda did do just that. The CBX1000 Z had EI right from the start in '78. Three Reluctor Redundant spark system with three separate EI modules in potting compound mounted under the battery box. These systems work very well and incorporate further electronic advance in addition to the mechanical advancer. They are showing their age now and now there more modern aftermarket designs available from a Dutch specialist. Not cheap though!! The later "B" and "C" models used the same modules but not potted and mounted individually.
Cheers,
Jerry
Post by: Oddjob on January 26, 2022, 06:47:30 PM
Post by: Nurse Julie on January 26, 2022, 06:54:28 PM
Cathy doesn't mind you boiling your bits on the hob Ash, she told me so 😂😂😂😂Certainly I find this whole topic fascinating.
But more than anything, the engineers that did the original research and design of all these machines, I'm in awe of.
There's been some very clever people within these teams, trying to understand exactly what they did is intriguing.
Oh sh*t Cathy just came in early and I have it boiling away in a pan on the kitchen hob :-[ :-[ :-[
Post by: Sesman on January 26, 2022, 07:10:02 PM
Post by: Sesman on January 26, 2022, 07:10:29 PM
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 27, 2022, 12:43:27 AM
http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php?topic=9062.0
Also found this where a Norton guy de-potted a BB unit. :-
http://atlanticgreen.com/boyerexposed.htm
The Honda 4-Cyl Mk3 one which one I am de-potting has blocking diodes on each coil though and a string of 5 series connected Zener diodes, which protect the transistor. Still plotting out the Honda-4 version circuit. All of the capacitors are tantalum type.... which is good news.
Post by: Oddjob on January 27, 2022, 01:47:48 AM
My Hondaman ignition module arrived today ;D ;D. Only fault is there are no holes in the circuit box to attach it to anywhere, I'll have to make a cage for it to hang it off the back of the battery box.
Post by: Johnwebley on January 27, 2022, 07:34:45 AM
I found this which answers my question on the Boyer Bransden system. It only has a single transistor because it fires all 4 coils at the same time. .. so I guess consumes double the current of the standard ignitionBrilliant,
http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php?topic=9062.0
Also found this where a Norton guy de-potted a BB unit. :-
http://atlanticgreen.com/boyerexposed.htm
The Honda 4-Cyl Mk3 one which one I am de-potting has blocking diodes on each coil though and a string of 5 series connected Zener diodes, which protect the transistor. Still plotting out the Honda-4 version circuit. All of the capacitors are tantalum type.... which is good news.
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Post by: Green1 on January 27, 2022, 07:36:02 AM
I have replaced coils,leads, caps and plugs. They all test fine.
Put a new battery in awhile ago. In the wrong way round. ::) Resulting in me striping the main loom to look for damage. No major damage other than a couple dodgy old repairs and a few corroded cables now cut out and replaced and burnt harness behind the fusebox now replaced. Must have made a difference as the lights are clearly a lot brighter and 2&3 have a bright blue spark. I've tested the Boyer Branden and confirmed over the phone with them it must have been damaged when connecting the battery the wrong way. New BB and still no spark on 1&4.
The only thing I can think of now is the stator must have been damaged as that's the only other thing I can think of that would control the spark.
Post by: Johnwebley on January 27, 2022, 07:43:08 AM
If it was damaged, I assume you would get no sparks,
I had similar problem a few years ago,
It was a DSS coil breaking down,
I paid extra for Boyer original style coils, work ok now,
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Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 27, 2022, 08:45:59 AM
Re: Advance curve
Boyer Bransden Electronics Ltd <help@boyerbransden.com>
Thank you for your enquiry, sorry we don't publish this information as we have a few secrets that do give us an edge. You may note that we fire all cylinders every 180 deg, this requires a little trickery, but it works.
Regards Tech Dept.
Hmm .. not sure they would take kindly to nerds like me de-potting their units to see how they 'tick'... but the Norton bloke obviously did just that in the late 90's and his findings are still out there on the net. If they are savvy anyway, they probably code-protect the chip (s) in their micro-digital version, so it would be more or less impossible to read the code and copy their system. Do they still sell a version of their original 'analogue' system?
Here is Ernie Bransdens original patent: No longer in force after the mid 90's ;)
https://worldwide.espacenet.com/patent/search/family/010462758/publication/GB1299853A?q=bransden%20ernest%20ignition
This is a good reference in the link below from Microchip (a chip manufacturer that I use all of the time) and one of these days I am going to make an EI based on this app. note. The one bike which would really benefit from EE with electronic advance etc. is the CB72/77. Honda mounted the auto-advance in between the two cams halves on this model and it's notorious for causing problems and very expensive to fix. There is a company in Germany that makes a crank mounted EI system which gets rave reviews but I don't think you get much change from £400 for their system (more than I paid for my bike !)
http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/AppNotes/00001980C.pdf
Post by: K2-K6 on January 27, 2022, 09:40:18 AM
Ash, reading that Norton BB post made my head hurt. Shame on you picking on an old man.
;D if that one hurt, Ash's next one on microchip ignition will be visible from down here as Ken explodes :D
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 27, 2022, 11:57:00 AM
Post by: Oddjob on January 27, 2022, 01:07:21 PM
Ash, I have smoke coming out of my ears now, if I self combust I'm blaming you.
Post by: K2-K6 on January 27, 2022, 01:09:36 PM
Post by: K2-K6 on January 27, 2022, 07:35:36 PM
Interesting project with mapping etc. Something that has the potential to be interesting, maybe....... crank triggering we obviously look at conventional type as many are available. But.... did you know that many current or recently made cars make use of tapping off one of the ac fields from alternator windings to give rpm readout in tachometer? Obviously on a car system with belt drive that's not a defined link to crankshaft, but it is on bikes though. And so, could that possibly be used to run a full programmed system as reliable timing by running relative delay at various range to give advance retard etc.
They read out at about 7 volts ac on my car, and just goes to tachometer not ECU.
Thinking it originated in diesel as a way to run electronic tachometer but with no ignition pulse present.
Diesels have mostly moved to crankshaft trigger and monitoring for ECU functionality as they've discarded injection pump timing in favour of pure mapping and injection control.
Post by: Dave on January 28, 2022, 10:27:11 AM
> ...from Microchip (a chip manufacturer that I use all of the time)
What devices / development tools do you generally use?
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 28, 2022, 03:36:01 PM
Ash
> ...from Microchip (a chip manufacturer that I use all of the time)
What devices / development tools do you generally use?
We used to programme in assembler the 'C' but recently I started using Great Cow Basic for some projects as there is a lot of support online and libraries of routines like graphics drivers etc etc.
For the past twenty years I have used a development board I designed with PIC16F877 and 5 Philips PCF I/O expanders and MAX232 on board RS232 and 'bootstrap' so customer can load code via RS232. but I tried a few of the newer chips a couple of years ago, which have loads more on chip features (like D->A , more advanced A->D and RTC and are amazingly cheap. Most of my applications are fairly simple though and relatively low speed. I still use a cheapo PicKit2 to program the devices. Great Cow have their own software for it which programmes a lot more up-to-date devices than Microchip intended/supported on it.
Interestingly I used to get my PCB's made near Saltburn ... Think it was a company called Cleveland Circuits. I now use Photronix in Sussex.
Ken ... I am merely answering a members question here .... before you terminally explode ;D ;D ;D
Post by: Johnwebley on January 28, 2022, 04:05:03 PM
But isn't it good to have such expertise on the forum
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Post by: Oddjob on January 28, 2022, 05:08:29 PM
Too late Ash.
Post by: Dave on January 29, 2022, 08:01:05 AM
I'll keep this brief so as not to upset any one!!
Like you, I used Cleveland Circuits many moons ago. I've been programming and using PIC micros for over 20 years now. I'm the author of a compiler called "Swordfish BASIC" - although this is targeted for 18F devices only. I also developed the Firewing development system and IDE and ICD for microEngineering Labs PBP.
If you would like a copy of Swordfish, let me know via PM - it's the least I can do for your support on this forum...
Dave
Post by: AshimotoK0 on January 29, 2022, 10:47:51 AM
Hi Ash
I'll keep this brief so as not to upset any one!!
Like you, I used Cleveland Circuits many moons ago. I've been programming and using PIC micros for over 20 years now. I'm the author of a compiler called "Swordfish BASIC" - although this is targeted for 18F devices only. I also developed the Firewing development system and IDE and ICD for microEngineering Labs PBP.
If you would like a copy of Swordfish, let me know via PM - it's the least I can do for your support on this forum...
Dave
Wow ! impressive PM sent
I notice David Coverdale hails from Saltburn-by-the-Sea but he sure doesn't talk like he comes from there any more ;D
Post by: Sesman on January 29, 2022, 12:38:41 PM